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Water dancing vs Westerosi Knights


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Well, the problem is everyone takes it as 'proof' the a lighter armored fighter will win vs. a heavier armored one. Which is clearly not true. Up until the statue decides to go for Varden, all Bronn managed to do was hurt his elbow. Clearly, Varden was still very much able to fight, as he then almost killed Bronn. Disregarding the deus ex machina of the statue, the fight is pretty much wide open.

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i don't think they do but again you forget they wear light to no armor even with light cavalry the horse alone weighs between 1500-2000 pounds which should be more than enough to break the line and stance of a what 220 generous pounds per soldier and once they break you have the ground and the day

it make sense

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Well, the problem is everyone takes it as 'proof' the a lighter armored fighter will win vs. a heavier armored one. Which is clearly not true. Up until the statue decides to go for Varden, all Bronn managed to do was hurt his elbow. Clearly, Varden was still very much able to fight, as he then almost killed Bronn. Disregarding the deus ex machina of the statue, the fight is pretty much wide open.

Plus all that other stuff that was going against Vardis, like his sword and a few other things that heavily foreshadowed Bronn winning.

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Well, the problem is everyone takes it as 'proof' the a lighter armored fighter will win vs. a heavier armored one. Which is clearly not true. Up until the statue decides to go for Varden, all Bronn managed to do was hurt his elbow. Clearly, Varden was still very much able to fight, as he then almost killed Bronn. Disregarding the deus ex machina of the statue, the fight is pretty much wide open.

i understand it was a funny fight that's what i thought when i read it kinda like the rain in Waterloo funny things happen in battles and fights that could flip the entire thing around but i do think ser vardis should have used a round shield instead of a tower shield

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Mobility and situational awareness have beat armour and strength on two occasions that I can think of: Bronn vs. Ser Vardis Egan in Tyrion's trial by combat and Oberyn Martell vs. The Mountain that Rides - again, during a Tyrion trial by combat. (In the latter case Oberyn HAD won, and should never have approached the dying Gregor. He KNEW the poison was ultra-slow-acting.)

I agree with what a couple of other posters have said. In a one-on-one combat situation, the quicker more lightly armoured fighter would be able to avoid the big guy in the tin can trying to see the world through a visor slit. On a battlefield ranks of knights standing or on horseback shoulder to shoulder would win the day.

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Bronn is a the kind of a fighter who use its speediness at max to win, that's probably for this reason he never use armor or heavy weapon. And i don't think he receive a proper fighting training like the other knights, he use every tricks in the book to win. But we don't know if he can afford to fight like this against a strong and quick opponent like gregor. In my opinion, his fighting skill is like a mix of water dancing and knight training without real training.

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Mobility and situational awareness have beat armour and strength on two occasions that I can think of: Bronn vs. Ser Vardis Egan in Tyrion's trial by combat and Oberyn Martell vs. The Mountain that Rides - again, during a Tyrion trial by combat. (In the latter case Oberyn HAD won, and should never have approached the dying Gregor. He KNEW the poison was ultra-slow-acting.)

I agree with what a couple of other posters have said. In a one-on-one combat situation, the quicker more lightly armoured fighter would be able to avoid the big guy in the tin can trying to see the world through a visor slit. On a battlefield ranks of knights standing or on horseback shoulder to shoulder would win the day.

see here is the thing it's a simple matter of reach vs flexibility the light warrior needs to be agile and flexible enough to remain outside the reach of his heavier opponent at all times because most like one swing would be enough to end him (the red viper case all it took was for him to be within gregors reach)

so it's not a given nor is it a probability that the lighter warrior would win it's rather even and it could only go down to two things weapons used (to determine the reach of each warrior ) and the individual skill that varies from one man to the other in terms of stamina strength agility quickness and experience (foresight )

it's wrong to assume that any of them would win without having first weighed in these factors

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It would be crazy to oppose heavy cavalry with unmounted swordsmen, of any style. You need heavy infantry armed with good-sized pikes.

Looking at things another way, heavy cavalry would be as useless as nipples on a breastplate in Braavos. And any man in full armor who fell into a canal would be making the Drowned God's acquaintance forthwith.

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It would be crazy to oppose heavy cavalry with unmounted swordsmen, of any style. You need heavy infantry armed with good-sized pikes.

Looking at things another way, heavy cavalry would be as useless as nipples on a breastplate in Braavos. And any man in full armor who fell into a canal would be making the Drowned God's acquaintance forthwith.

we're discussing open field battle or that's what i thought

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Well, if we're talking open field battle, the main worry for anyone not wearing armor isn't the knights on the other side, mounted or not. It's those pesky guys with weapons that can kill you from afar long before you even reach them to do your fancy dancing. Bowmen and crossbowmen would have a field day.

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Well, if we're talking open field battle, the main worry for anyone not wearing armor isn't the knights on the other side, mounted or not. It's those pesky guys with weapons that can kill you from afar long before you even reach them to do your fancy dancing. Bowmen and crossbowmen would have a field day.

very true English longbows or welsh were known to have a range of 200m and a drawforce of 500N (enough to pierce mail and leather )

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Except it didn't on that one. A freak occurence with a statue decided that duel.

Er, well, it's not like the statue just fell on Vardis on its own. Bronn shoved it on top of him.

But Bronn jerked back. Jon Arryn's beautiful engraved silver sword glanced off the marble elbow of the weeping woman and snapped clean a third of the way up the blade. Bronn put his shoulder into the statue's back. The weathered likeness of Alyssa Arryn tottered and fell with a great crash, and Ser Vardis Egen went down beneath her.

Bronn was on him in a heartbeat, kicking what was left of his shattered rondel aside to expose the weak spot between arm and breastplate. Ser Vardis was lying on his side, pinned beneath the broken torso of the weeping woman. Catelyn heard the knight groan as the sellsword lifted his blade with both hands and drove it down and in with all his weight behind it, under the arm and through the ribs. Ser Vardis Egen shuddered and lay still.

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Well, your previous posts gave me the impression that you thought the statue falling on Vardis Egan was a freak accident and that the fight was otherwise wide open until the statue thing happened. But if you actually go back and read the chapter, Ser Vardis was already starting to falter and Bronn clearly had the upper hand even before the statue thing happened:

"Ser Vardis is hurt," Ser Rodrik said, his voice grave.

Catelyn did not need to be told; she had eyes, she could see the bright finger of blood running along the knight's forearm, the wetness inside the elbow joint. Every parry was a little slower and a little lower than the one before. Ser Vardis turned his side to his foe, trying to use his shield to block instead, but Bronn slid around him, quick as a cat. The sellsword seemed to be getting stronger. His cuts were leaving their marks now. Deep shiny gashes gleamed all over the knight's armor, on his right thigh, his beaked visor, crossing on his breastplate, a long one along the front of his gorget. The moon-and-falcon rondel over Ser Vardis's right arm was sheared clean in half, hanging by its strap. They could hear his labored breath, rattling through the air holes in his visor.

Even if you somehow conclude that the presence of statues is something that is so rare in a fight that it constitutes a 'deus ex machina', Bronn was still winning this fight before he hit Vardis with the statue; he was already cutting Vardis to ribbons and Vardis was visibly out of breath. In Catelyn's internal narration, even she thinks that Vardis was in trouble, and comments that the only person in the room that thought Vardis was overpowering Bronn was the delusional Lady Lysa.

Throughout the actual fight, GRRM emphasizes Bronn's superior speed throughout this clash ("Bronn slid around him, quick as a cat", "Bronn was on him in a heartbeat", "the knight's silvered sword never came near to touching him"). Ser Vardis had physical power, sure, but he couldn't bring it to bear against Bronn because Bronn's lightness and quickness made it hard for him to touch.

The statue being present in the castle was lucky but there's no reason to think that Bronn would have lost without it. Certainly it didn't give him such a huge advantage that it can be considered a deus ex machina!

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I think that some are under-emphasing a knight's sword skills in comparison to a water dancer. Contrary to myth, knights were highly skilled swordsmen. Armor only went out of style with the advent of gun powder because it no longer made sense to weigh oneself down against a weapon which could not be protected against. After that, rapiers and what not (the water dancer equivalents) came on the scene. So when it comes to a water dancer vs. a knight without armor, the matter of who wins comes down to the individuals involved and the circumstances.

When it comes to an armored knight vs. a water dancer, I think the knight has the advantage all other factors being equal (which they rarely are).

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Even if you somehow conclude that the presence of statues is something that is so rare in a fight that it constitutes a 'deus ex machina', Bronn was still winning this fight before he hit Vardis with the statue; he was already cutting Vardis to ribbons and Vardis was visibly out of breath.

One blow to the elbow hardly constitutes cutting someone to ribbons in my world.

In Catelyn's internal narration, even she thinks that Vardis was in trouble, and comments that the only person in the room that thought Vardis was overpowering Bronn was the delusional Lady Lysa.

You will notice I never argued that Vardis wasn't in trouble, nor that he was overpowering anyone.

Throughout the actual fight, GRRM emphasizes Bronn's superior speed throughout this clash ("Bronn slid around him, quick as a cat", "Bronn was on him in a heartbeat", "the knight's silvered sword never came near to touching him"). Ser Vardis had physical power, sure, but he couldn't bring it to bear against Bronn because Bronn's lightness and quickness made it hard for him to touch.

Again, I never argued that Bronn wasn't faster. As for not being able to bring physical power to bear, Egen did do so right before the incident with the statue. That came very very close to killing Bronn outright.

The statue being present in the castle was lucky but there's no reason to think that Bronn would have lost without it. Certainly it didn't give him such a huge advantage that it can be considered a deus ex machina!

Yes it did. Before the statue thing, they had both drawn blood once. Bronn by hacking at Egen's elbow, Egen by shield-bashing Bronn in the teeth. It was an open fight at that point. The decisive things were the breaking of the sword and the statue, both highly irregular instances so unlikely as to warrant me calling them deus ex machina.

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It is mentioned though that Sir Vardis was exhausted. No exact quote but "he didn't raise his sword as high, and every parry came a bit slower than the last."

I do think it is implied that Bronn was getting the better of him. Of course all it takes is one well placed slash to win the duel, but even without the statue I think the odds are heavily in Bronns favour at that point.

Deus ex machina is what I would call Ser Gregor "winning" against the Red Viper.

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It wasn't just one blow to the elbow though.

Before that, you have this:

Oak chips flew as Bronn's sword hacked at the wooden wall. The sellsword stepped left again, away from the shield, and caught Ser Vardis across the stomach, the razor edge of his blade leaving a bright gash when it bit into the knight's plate.

And later:

The sellsword seemed to be getting stronger. His cuts were leaving their marks now. Deep shiny gashes gleamed all over the knight's armor, on his right thigh, his beaked visor, crossing on his breastplate, a long one along the front of his gorget. The moon-and-falcon rondel over Ser Vardis's right arm was sheared clean in half, hanging by its strap. They could hear his labored breath, rattling through the air holes in his visor.

As for not being able to bring physical power to bear, Egen did do so right before the incident with the statue. That came very very close to killing Bronn outright.

Do you mean this?

Throwing aside his shield, Ser Vardis lurched after him, using both hands to raise his sword. His right arm was blood from elbow to fingers now, yet his last desperate blow would have opened Bronn from neck to navel . . . if the sellsword had stood to receive it. But Bronn jerked back.

Bronn dodged. Because he was faster and lighter than his opponent, and his opponent was getting tired -- this was, in fact, explicitly what Catelyn interprets Bronn's strategy to be. She notes earlier in the fight that Bronn was trying to exhaust Vardis Egan by making him chase after him while wearing his heavy armor. Bronn unarmored could keep running around for a while longer than Vardis could.

Yes it did. Before the statue thing, they had both drawn blood once. Bronn by hacking at Egen's elbow, Egen by shield-bashing Bronn in the teeth. It was an open fight at that point. The decisive things were the breaking of the sword and the statue, both highly irregular instances so unlikely as to warrant me calling them deus ex machina.

It wasn't an open fight; Bronn had slashed Vardis several times; not just in the elbow. I don't see why you're minimizing the elbow blow so much though; it was enough to make Ser Rodrik worry and Catelyn noticed that after Bronn hit Vardis in the elbow his parries were becoming slower and lower than they were before. You can't compare that to getting hit in the mouth with a shield, which while unpleasant isn't the same as receiving an injury that actually makes it harder for you to fight.

Honestly, rereading this fight Bronn had a clear advantage and a strategy that worked. The statue and the sword breaking were lucky for him I suppose but he would likely have won even without them. I don't think Vardis even touched Bronn a single time with his sword while Bronn inflicted multiple bloody injuries. The only injury that I find for Bronn is getting hit in the mouth with the shield, which sent him reeling, I'll admit, but it doesn't say that he lost any blood from it.

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