Water dancing vs Westerosi Knights

[Morienthar]

Vardis was pipped to lose the fight from the start,New armor,Heavier Blade and such.

In a battle situation Heavy Infantry and Heavy Cavalry will always have the advantage over light Infantry and Light Cavalry.

[Lord Reaver]

It wasn't just one blow to the elbow though.

Before that, you have this:

And later:

Do you mean this?

Hitting someone's armor is not cutting them to ribbons. That's what the armor is for. All Bronn was doing there was tiring himself out.

It wasn't an open fight; Bronn had slashed Vardis several times; not just in the elbow. I don't see why you're minimizing the elbow blow so much though; it was enough to make Ser Rodrik worry and Catelyn noticed that after Bronn hit Vardis in the elbow his parries were becoming slower and lower than they were before. You can't compare that to getting hit in the mouth with a shield, which while unpleasant isn't the same as receiving an injury that actually makes it harder for you to fight.

It was an entirely open fight. If it wasn't, Egen wouldn't have come within a hair's breadth of killing Bronn outright. I'm not minimizing anything. And yes, I can compare it with being hit in the mouth with a shield. Try it some day. It'll make you more than reel, I bet. I have been hit in the mouth with minimal force, and even that is well beyond 'unpleasant'. Any hit to the face is extremely debilitating and desorientating.

Honestly, rereading this fight Bronn had a clear advantage and a strategy that worked. The statue and the sword breaking were lucky for him I suppose but he would likely have won even without them. I don't think Vardis even touched Bronn a single time with his sword while Bronn inflicted multiple bloody injuries. The only injury that I find for Bronn is getting hit in the mouth with the shield, which sent him reeling, I'll admit, but it doesn't say that he lost any blood from it.

Again, where are these multiple bloody injuries? I only recall the one to the elbow, and you've shown no other. You can argue what's 'likely' til your face turns blue. The thing is Bronn won because of a statue and a broken sword. Nothing else.

[Fauch]

In a battle situation Heavy Infantry and Heavy Cavalry will always have the advantage over light Infantry and Light Cavalry.

Not necessarily true. Remember Jorah's praise of the Dothraki, which would certainly classify as Light Cavalry.

[Fauch]

It was an entirely open fight. If it wasn't, Egen wouldn't have come within a hair's breadth of killing Bronn outright.

As for this...in any battle there is always the chance to land a "lucky blow". Egen was desperate at that point, and it was his "either this works or I die" move.

[harveymoody]

It all depends on who is fighting and what type of fight it is. On open ground verse fully armored knights the water dancers would get cut down like grass. If you are fighting on ships the water dancers would probally have the upper hand. In one on one combat it would all depend on the skills of both parties involved. Not all water dancers are as good as Syrio while not all knights are as good as Jamie was. So if you put a water dancer like Syrio up against a common knight his chances are good and vice versa.

[kiasyd]

Ser Vardis’s right arm was sheared clean in half, hanging by its strap. They could hear his labored breath, rattling through the air holes in his visor.

Blind with arrogance as they were, even the knights and lords of the Vale could see what was happening below them, yet her sister could not.

Lord Reaver, you're sharing Lysa's notion of that duel. :dunno:

[Lord Reaver]

Nice quote cutting there. It's the rondel covering his arm that's sheared, oops you missed that bit.

And no, I am not sharing Lysa's notion. She was convinced Egen was playing with Bronn. That's hardly what I've been arguing. But nice try with the insulting low-blow. Good form.

[C0bR]

Not necessarily true. Remember Jorah's praise of the Dothraki, which would certainly classify as Light Cavalry.

Dothraki are pretty typical in their giant numbers and fighting style and whom they fight against. There is quite probably no such a thing as heavy cavalry in Essos.

[Morienthar]

Not necessarily true. Remember Jorah's praise of the Dothraki, which would certainly classify as Light Cavalry.

The Dothraki for all their fierceness lost to heavy infantry i.e the Unsullied very badly.

The Dothraki prey on villages they are essentially the Iron Born of Essos.

[BondJamesBond]

In an open battlefield, the heavy armor will win. However, 99% of the times a person needs to fight is not after they have gone through all the effort to put their tank armor on. Battles represent a very small percentage of the times a person will need to fight. However, it probably isn't as lopsided in battle as we think. I'm sure the water dancer has armor and can go out and ride a horse and possibly carry a weapon like a spear and be very effective.

The water dancer is more effective in numerous other war scenarios such as guerrilla war, ambushes and the like. Additionally, the water dancer wins in most fights inside a castle such as storming a city, defending a city or an internal struggle within a city.

Finally, the water dancing skill is so rare that a water dancer can find a place to be effective on a battlefield. Knights seem to be in much greater supply than truly skilled swordsmen.

[Howie Manderly]

Waterdancing benefits from having enviromental hazards to incapacitate a foe. On the open field of battle, an armored knight would do for any water dancer, even the legendary Syrio.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Water dancers have a single advantage against knights: their full equipment is a civil dress they'll wear anywhere and at any time. Drink in a tavern? Fully equipped. Fucking a whore? Equipment in arm's reach. Walk a street? Fully equipped. Be at court? Fully equipped. That's it.

A knight wearing only his longsword would have only a very slight disadvantage under these circumstances. But if he wore his armor, the water dancer would stand barely a chance

I think that some are under-emphasing a knight's sword skills in comparison to a water dancer. Contrary to myth, knights were highly skilled swordsmen. Armor only went out of style with the advent of gun powder because it no longer made sense to weigh oneself down against a weapon which could not be protected against. After that, rapiers and what not (the water dancer equivalents) came on the scene. So when it comes to a water dancer vs. a knight without armor, the matter of who wins comes down to the individuals involved and the circumstances.

When it comes to an armored knight vs. a water dancer, I think the knight has the advantage all other factors being equal (which they rarely are).

Actually, armor only went out of style 1914. Armored cuirassiers were the cavalry of choice of Napoleon and still featured prominently in the Franco-German War 1870/71.

Vardis was pipped to lose the fight from the start,New armor,Heavier Blade and such.

In a battle situation Heavy Infantry and Heavy Cavalry will always have the advantage over light Infantry and Light Cavalry.

Knights seem to be in much greater supply than truly skilled swordsmen.

Wait what? A knight training at arms for his entire life is no truly skilled swordsman? Oh well, then Syrio Forel is probably the only truly skilled water dancer opposed to Ser Jaime Lannister, Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne being the only truly skilled knights.

[Fauch]

The Dothraki for all their fierceness lost to heavy infantry i.e the Unsullied very badly.

The Dothraki prey on villages they are essentially the Iron Born of Essos.

Yet Jorah, who is certainly skilled and knowledgable in the arts of war in westeros considers them a real threat, if Robert was "foolish enough to give open battle"

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yet Jorah, who is certainly skilled and knowledgable in the arts of war in westeros considers them a real threat, if Robert was "foolish enough to give open battle"

Jorah is emotionally very invested in Dany's chances. He's trying to convince himself (and failing).

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Water Dancers would get annihilated in a battle.

[Steinnis]

Just to echo everyone else, on a battlefield - Unlikely. But in a single combat, it's all about individual skill, stamina, and you're focused solely on one opponent not dozens around you, not knowing where the next blow is going to come from.

[Morienthar]

Yet Jorah, who is certainly skilled and knowledgable in the arts of war in westeros considers them a real threat, if Robert was "foolish enough to give open battle"

Historically a barbarian unarmored horse archer hordes have been always outclassed by heavy cavalry and infantry formations.

Don't throw the Mongols at me,They had very good armor for their time period.

[twizz]

It depends on how they are deployed in battle. They could not be the main force of an army for obviously reasons, but they can be used effective and be a deciding factor on the battlefield. But if you are talking a mass of water dancers vs a mass of knights the water dancers would get slaughtered.

[twizz]

Yet Jorah, who is certainly skilled and knowledgable in the arts of war in westeros considers them a real threat, if Robert was "foolish enough to give open battle"

Well the westeros army isn't composed of unsullied and seems to be comprised of mostly poor farmer/soldiers wearing boiled leather, so there may be validity to Jorah's concerns. However, Jorah may be looking at them solely as units and not factoring in their horrible leadership and battle tactics. (Charging into spears over and over again :bang: ).

[kiasyd]

Nice quote cutting there. It's the rondel covering his arm that's sheared, oops you missed that bit.

And no, I am not sharing Lysa's notion. She was convinced Egen was playing with Bronn. That's hardly what I've been arguing. But nice try with the insulting low-blow. Good form.

Certainly I'm not implying that his whole arm was cut - I left the prior part because others had already provided the same quote for you, and my opinion stands: You're ignoring the development of the battle the same way Lysa does - I'm not name calling, nor arguing ad hominem. You began arguing that Vardis lost because a deus ex machina statue fell on him magically by itself, which most certainly is not true. Bronn used skill, speed and wits to win, he took a measure of Vardis, calculated his odds and decided to go into the battle - he gave a nasty gash to Vardis, pushed the statue on top of him and this hardly characterises a deux ex machina resolution.

The way that you argue seems to imply that this chapter is badly written, and again, it's certainly not.