Restoration Rights?

[Rhaegarsjoy]

And that's my point :)

Dany can't come to Westeros demanding her rights, because she doesn't have any. If she wants the throne she's going to have to fight for it, just like AtC

Neither can Stannis, Robert won the throne thru conquest if stannis wants the throne since no one wants him as their king he will have to take it by force.

Unlike the Starks who have actual rights and a claim to the North. They don't need to fight for their rights, people want them

If Dany's father and brother loosing the throne makes her have no claim to the IT then Robb loosing the north makes the stark kids no longer have any claim unless they take it Back by force which is surprisingly what both parties are doing.

[C0bR]

If Dany's father and brother loosing the throne makes her have no claim to the IT then Robb loosing the north makes the stark kids no longer have any claim unless they take it Back by force which is surprisingly what both parties are doing.

As far as I know, the North is still loyal to Starks and because of that is theirs.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

As far as I know, the North is still loyal to Starks and because of that is theirs.

So if Dany comes to westeros and ppl WANT her over stannis, tyrells and the lannister bastards you'll accept that?

[Morienthar]

If Dany's father and brother loosing the throne makes her have no claim to the IT then Robb loosing the north makes the stark kids no longer have any claim unless they take it Back by force which is surprisingly what both parties are doing.

The problem with this logic is Fake Arya.

[C0bR]

So if Dany comes to westeros and ppl WANT her over stannis, tyrells and the lannister bastards you'll accept that?

I already wrote what I think about so called Targ loyalists on the previous page. If she comes and some major houses will actually wants her (and I would be surprised by that), I will have to accept that.

The problem with this logic is Fake Arya.

This also. Even with all Starks reportedly dead or missing, the mighty Tywin Lannister still had to install a "Stark" to Winterfell to ensure the loyalty of northmen.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

As far as I know, the North is still loyal to Starks and because of that is theirs.

Bolton, Dustin or Ryswells seem to be cool with the current warden. Karstark also thought and abandoned the Starks, Umber had to be threatened with destruction to even go South and fight for Ned, while the men of the mountain clans couldnt even be bothered to send any of their men while the people of Skagos recently rebelled against Stark rule. Add in the fact that Ned's close friend has pretty much stayed on his ass while Ned, his son and the people of Wintefell died.

That is not entirely a land and people united in wanting the North back.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

This also. Even with all Starks reportedly dead or missing, the mighty Tywin Lannister still had to install a "Stark" to Winterfell to ensure the loyalty of northmen.

Like Robert had to say his grandmother was a Targaryen?

[C0bR]

Like Robert had to say his grandmother was a Targaryen?

Like anyone would give a damn or do anything if he didn't. As far as I know, he ruled under a name Baratheon.

Bolton, Dustin or Ryswells seem to be cool with the current warden. Karstark also thought and abandoned the Starks, Umber had to be threatened with destruction to even go South and fight for Ned, while the men of the mountain clans couldnt even be bothered to send any of their men while the people of Skagos recently rebelled against Stark rule. Add in the fact that Ned's close friend has pretty much stayed on his ass while Ned, his son and the people of Wintefell died.

That is not entirely a land and people united in wanting the North back.

Manderlys, Mormonts, Reeds, Glovers, mountains clans, half of the remaining Umbers, probably also Flints are pretty much openly working for Starks, even Roose knows that

Cerwyns and Tallharts will jump on that wagon as soon as something happens, 2nd half of Umbers too

Karkstarks are on Stark's side to thanks too Alys Karstark, even though Robb beheaded her father

That is without taking in a major possibility that Dustins and Ryswells are working with those too

Mountain men sent men to South

Greatjon just wanted to see some power in the Young Wolf, that conversation pretty much had to happen

Skagosi are wildcard, I will admit that

By that close friend you mean Howland? He was ordered to stay in marches and he can't do much more as of right now than to work from behind the courtain

[Bran The Burner]

There was no IT before the Targaryens.

So by your own definition he usurped he right of not one but six kings.

In reality Aegon was a conqueror and so was Robert. To usurp is to do what Lannisters are doing to Stannis, when through betrayl, lies and assassination, and not arms they took his place as rightful heir of Robert.

If they accepted that Cercei's spawn are the offspring of the incestious Lannisters and then conquered the IT that would have been a conquest, and likewise if Robert had won the IT claiming that Aerys children were bastards and he was the only legitimate heir he would have been a usurper.

[Nyrhex]

How do you know there are no secret Targaryen loyalists? They bend the knee to Robert with a sword at their throat and the lannister tyrell forces were to many to chalenge. If ppl loved Robert and friends to him why not suppose his true heir stannis? They don't want him and Tywin was what was keeping cercei's bastards on the throne, the rest of westeros will not allow a puppet bastard and former stewards to rule them.

There are not enough, as that would defy logic. They lost because there were'nt enough of them, the Lannisters and the Greyjoys sat it out, the Tyrells kept out of most of the fighting. 4 lords paramount rebelled, 1 sat on the fence (2 with the Greyjoys, but they are not lords paramount IIRC), 1 pretended to help (Tyrells), 1 sent help (Dorne). People love Robert, and so they support who they think is his rightful heir - Joffrey, and then Tommen. Stannis is Robert's heir, but most don't buy that. Most think that Stannis lied, like when Tyrion and Cersie spread that Shireen was Patchface's daughter, rather then Stannis'. Most people support who they see as Robert's heir. Some support Stannis, as they know he is Robert's true heir. The North supports independence, so do the Greyjoys. The Vale is sitting out, Dorne is waiting for a chance to marry into the royal line, and the rest are supporting one Baratheon or the other.

So if Dany comes to westeros and ppl WANT her over stannis, tyrells and the lannister bastards you'll accept that?

Of course. It simply defys logic that most would want her, but if they do then they do. But how many people do you see will want her? 10,000 exiles of the Golden Company? A few lords in the Reach, perhaps the Stormlands, and very few who are left in the Vale? All the River lords and the Northmen called Robb King, after the "Baratheon" allowed the king's peace to be broken against them, and legitimised Tywin's illegal war against them. The Stormlands declared for Renly, then were pardoned and declared for Stannis. They are now under the yoke of the "Baratheon" in King's Landing, though they prefer Stannis, and only bent the knee with a sword at thier neck. The Reach mostly cares about staying in power, only they lack the capacity to simply sieze it. Had they had the good sense to get over thier feud with the Dornish, they could have wed Willas to Arianne and take the throne by right of conquest, maybe even join the Stormlands by giving Renly some higher position. They did'nt, and now they are forced to play as seconds to the "Baratheons" of King's Landing if they wish to get more say.

Either way, there is little chance that Dany would become the favourite amongst the lords and people of the Westeros, especially if she comes offering more death, more war, more fire and blood. Dany is already married, or she is going to marry Aegon or Jon (according to the popular theories, and Targ tradition). She is'nt offering anything special to the lords, and nothing to the small folk.

[Nictarion]

She is'nt offering anything special to the lords, and nothing to the small folk.

Yes she is, the stability the dragons can bring.There wouldn't have been a Wot5K if the Lannisters had dragons.

[C0bR]

Yes she is, the stability the dragons can bring.There wouldn't have been a Wot5K if the Lannisters had dragons.

True, bringing in stability is the main attribute of her waltzing through Slavers' Bay.

Hopefully the word of her bringing the stability to Astapor or of the dragons providing the stability in Meereen reaches Westeros before her, so the Lords can begin to implement her grand ideas before her arrival.

[Nyrhex]

Yes she is, the stability the dragons can bring.There wouldn't have been a Wot5K if the Lannisters had dragons.

No, the dragons are the tool to enforce her arbitrary rule over people who do not want her. Here lies the difference between rightful restoration, and cunquering oppression. Dany is either what people want, and thier will makes her queen, or people do not want her, and she has dragons to make them accept her. One bends the knee because he wants to, or because he has to.

Had the Targareyns were still in possesion of dragons, Rhaegar would have walked away the kidnapping a duaghter of a lord paramount. Aerys would have walked away with murder. It brings stability only in the meaning that the owner of the dragons is stabe. The lords are not stable, as they have to live in fear that they can have thier children taken from them, and even be murdered, and there is not a damn thing they can do about it, because dragons.

[Morienthar]

Yes she is, the stability the dragons can bring.There wouldn't have been a Wot5K if the Lannisters had dragons.

That would be oppression it's a fine line.

[Pikachu101]

Neither can Stannis, Robert won the throne thru conquest if stannis wants the throne since no one wants him as their king he will have to take it by force.

Obviously, but he's still in a better position than Dany.

1. He has actual allies

2. People recognise his claim

3. He isn't a foreigner no one's heard of

4. He's lived in Westeros his whole life

If Dany's father and brother loosing the throne makes her have no claim to the IT then Robb loosing the north makes the stark kids no longer have any claim unless they take it Back by force which is surprisingly what both parties are doing.

The difference is that 3/7 of Westeros want the Starks back. I don't see whole regions vying for the Targaryens to be back in power.

[Nictarion]

I don't see whole regions vying for the Targaryens to be back in power.

We don't know, cause theres no Targs currently in Westeros. Except Jon.

[Pikachu101]

We don't know, cause theres no Targs currently in Westeros. Except Jon.

And Jon's a nobody. My point is that regions don't care nor do they wish for the Targaryens to be back, not like how the North, Riverlands and Vsle would support a Stark comeback

[Lord Damian]

She can make allies the same way Aegon the conqueror did, with dragons.

She can but I think she will not have all 3, or atleast all 3 under her control when she arrives. Anyways, I think she will find more resistance even if they are under her power and breathing fire. There are too many factions that hated the dragons. The Iron Bank who has a vested interest in Westeros has made it clear how they feel about dragons. The Maesters of the Citidel. The Faceless Men as well.

[Lord Damian]

And Jon's a nobody. My point is that regions don't care nor do they wish for the Targaryens to be back, not like how the North, Riverlands and Vsle would support a Stark comeback

I agree. It is Roose Bolton's greatest fear that one of the boys (which he knows are still alive) shows up with their wolf. Their support will evaporate instantily, hostages at the Twins or not. Dany is not the Targ heir, Besides, Aegon has already beaten her to Westeros. He will be believed to be Rheagar's son and he, if he were real or atleast believed has the "rightfull Targ" claim to the Iron Throne if ANY Targ does at all.

[Howling Mad]

Its all about being able to gather the support of those you mean to rule. If Daenerys can convince enough lords and commoners to follow her then she has a chance, same as any would be ruler. Whether you are a Targaryen, Stark, or Baratheon having a claim by name is all marketing to gather support. This is one of the main reasons the Greyjoys will fail at ruling Westeros even if they some how conquer the IT. The Grejoy name is mud.