Mulled Wino Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Why wouldnt she be monstrous? She was just murdered with her son. Lol, were people not expecting that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Nastja Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 She... kidnaps and kills innocent people!?Innocents? She has kidnapped/killed many, many Freys but they are hardly innocent; all partook in the RW. Yes, she kidnapped Brienne but she thought that she was in league with the Lannisters and Jaime (whom Cat assumes helped to plan the RW), and their was conclusive proof. So, I'm not so sure about her murdering innocents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Hahaha.... what?I don't think being inarticulate in a stressful situation is worthy of the fucking death sentence. I seem to be pretty much alone in this thread though, sadly.You'd be right if she was actually receiving a death sentence for being inarticulate. She was being hanged for actual evidence showing she supported the Lannister cause and refusing the direct order of her liege lady. Notice the direct order is what led to her being hanged and once she agreed to follow orders, was cut down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisa Furukawa Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Entirely because her last name is Stark, of course.Yup. Yes, the readership has a huge amount of empathy and support for the Starks. Yes, the readership wants to see the Freys responsible for the RW pay for their crimes. These are precisely the fan emotions GRRM played off of when he had the epilogue of ASoS show Cat alive and getting revenge on Freys, and then invert in the next book when he has her go after characters we like and know did nothing wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Nagisa said he felt sorry for Merritt because that's obviously what George's intention was while writing the scene, in order to make it more powerful. It's why we got to know him so much before he died, and why we experienced his fear alongside him. If people were punching the air when he got hanged, then they should really rethink themselves.But that isn't really replying to my question. Yes, his back story of failure humanizes him, but does that somehow absolve him of his crimes? Does being a sad sack loser who never 'got the breaks' make him NOT guilty of his involvement in the Red Wedding and his active participation in the planning and execution of the Red Wedding?Why does he not deserve to be hanged when his guilt is proven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Sucellus Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Innocents? She has kidnapped/killed many, many Freys but they are hardly innocent; all partook in the RW. Yes, she kidnapped Brienne but she thought that she was in league with the Lannisters and Jaime (whom Cat assumes helped to plan the RW), and their was conclusive proof. So, I'm not so sure about her murdering innocents.Brienne and Pod are both innocent of the crime she attempts to hang them for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I do find how people defend Beric as some great champion of justice while criticizing UnCat interesting. In how, Beric never did anything that shows him being any more just then UnCat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jons nissa Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Yup. Yes, the readership has a huge amount of empathy and support for the Starks. Yes, the readership wants to see the Freys responsible for the RW pay for their crimes. These are precisely the fan emotions GRRM played off of when he had the epilogue of ASoS show Cat alive and getting revenge on Freys, and then invert in the next book when he has her go after characters we like and know did nothing wrong.no, the readership wants to see EVERY frey pay and they celebrate every kill lady stoneheart executes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Please don't speak for everyone. I'm not ''terrified'' by LS and I don't think she is monstruous/evil. She's Cat as she was at the moment of her death; a woman mad with grief, I don't think the ressurection changed much about that; she did kill the Frey boy without even thinking about it once she saw Robb get offed. Her judging of Brienne and co. isin't exactly off given the mountain of evidence against the Maid of Tarth (and even then she gives her a ''chance'' at redemption. That's more than several characters get). She goes too far in her vengeance spree, of course, that's the point. but that doesn't make her more evil than, say, Dany crucifying 166 slavers in Meereen. Plus, so far AFAIK she has hanged male adult Freys or soldiers at their command, which is kinda fair given how war goes in Westeros, and most male Freys did indeed know about the RW. Hell, she even maintains an orphanage, of all things; that's way more kindness shown than half the characters in the series. For a supposedly dangerously mad and monstruous person, I find her to actually be kinda tame.:agree:she's not evil, she's not even unjustifiable to me. The Freys, Lannisters, and company have killed (as far as she knows) every member of her family, or are holding them hostage, or have lost them (Sansa). She's royally pissed off, rightly so. And she commands an army. Just as the Lannisters can kill people, just as Robb could kill people, so can she. I'll even give you that killing Pod is wrong, but as far as she knows, he's with the Lannisters. And if you think the Lannisters would hesitate to kill an innocent member of the Stark alliance/ household you're clearky reading a different book than I am. The Lannisters slaughtered the entire household of the Starks in KL, including women and squires. They even killed the Septa. They only kept Jeyne alive to be a whore, and beaten, then give her to the Boltons. Tell me, what did Jeyne do to deserve that? What did the Septa do? No, the Lannisters are guilty of worse crimes than LS. Everyone LS has killed or tried to kill, are enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Walrus Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 no, the readership wants to see EVERY frey pay and they celebrate every kill lady stoneheart executes.And? You say this like it's a bad thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father of Hosts Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I do find how people defend Beric as some great champion of justice while criticizing UnCat interesting. In how, Beric never did anything that shows him being any more just then UnCat.The hound got a trial by combat.If Thoros, Beric's right hand man, thinks the BwB is a bastardized version of its former self, I'll take that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Sucellus Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I do find how people defend Beric as some great champion of justice while criticizing UnCat interesting. I think a solid number of fans agree with me that the Brotherhood under both leadership regimes show the dark side of vigilantism and vengeance.I loved when Sandor called them out on their bullshit during ASoS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 The hound got a trial by combat.Yeah, that is fair measure to discover someone's guilt. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted July 8, 2013 Author Share Posted July 8, 2013 Whilst it does play on themes of good vs evil I do find Martins portrayal of vengeance as an inherent bad at odds with that. Basically, not all desires for it are equal and justified. Karstark was defiently in the wrong, he should not have felt what he did because his children were grown men and died as society expected of them. Hard to come to terms with, yes, but not a good enough reason to kill prisoners and become obsessed. But compare that to what the Starks have suffered and I just find Martin applying the same principles to Uncats desire for revenge just very off. What Cat saw would damage her for her life and she would, in my mind, burn regardless. The only question is, does she contain that or let it fuel her need for vengeance at the risk of harming the general good or those around her; mainly killing innocents. Martin is making a huge expectation that a person would put the interests of others first and take all of the pain in silence by containing a natural desire for vengeance. One desire for vengeance doesn't equal another in terms of how justified it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Nastja Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 4690905']Brienne and Pod are both innocent of the crime she attempts to hang them for.Look at the proof that Cat has: Brienne, the woman who pledged to find her daughters, bears her late husband's sword (Ice was made into two swords I know, but its still the same to Cat) that was given to her by the Lannisters, has been seen running errands for Jaime Lannister and outright defends him. This is the man, who in Cat's mind, is largely responsible for the RW ("Jaime Lannister sends his regards"). Brienne also bears a letter from the Lannister King, declaring that she is acting on his behalf.And Podrick? Why, he just happens to be the Imp's squire.Now, put yourself in Cat's shoes. The evidence is rather conclusive, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father of Hosts Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Yeah, that is fair measure to discover someone's guilt. :rolleyes:It's not fair but it is fairer than the alternative. I'd take the fight any day of the week over being hanged. At least in Beric's day, they had a choice or a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jons nissa Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 And? You say this like it's a bad thing...i do think it's a bad thing. the entire family is hardly guilty.Yeah, that is fair measure to discover someone's guilt. :rolleyes:it is the method considered fair in westeros.. And? You say this like it's a bad thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I do find how people defend Beric as some great champion of justice while criticizing UnCat interesting. In how, Beric never did anything that shows him being any more just then UnCat.The hound got a trial by combat.If Thoros, Beric's right hand man, thinks the BwB is a bastardized version of its former self, I'll take that.And note they were charging him for deaths he had nothing to do with and he didn't actually get his trial by combat until calling them out on their hypocrisy. Brienne's trial used actual evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Nastja Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Yeah, that is fair measure to discover someone's guilt. :rolleyes:Well, it's the norm in Westeros so we can hardly argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 It's not fair but it is fairer than the alternative. I'd take the fight any day of the week over being hanged. At least in Beric's day, they had a choice or a chance.It is a valid as UnCat's method of where they have act as a witness of whether or not the person was at the RW or if there was evidence of their betrayal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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