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A Clash of Personalities: Activity vs. Passivity in Relationships


Éadaoin

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Interesting thread. About Dany’s submissiveness, two very different scenes come to my mind. When the marriage to Hizdahr was being planned she steadfastly refused to wash Hizzi's feet and instead is him who washes hers. But on the flip of the coin we see that she feels joy when Daahrio lets her tied his boots for him. Notice the similitude of the gesture. In both cases, there is bound to be some kneeling at the feet of both men. The only difference is that Dany of course has actual feelings for one, while basically despising the other one. It could suggest a willingness in Dany to submit out of love (one fire to love/one treason for love) or at least Dany before epiphany in last episode was.

Spot on imo, shes all for submitting out of love.

I don’t know about this. Mostly, because Stannis’ association with her began when he was seduced by the power she offered. He meant to use her and her power to claim the throne he considered rightfully his but in a reversal of roles, he is the one that becomes the instrument of her and her God.

The fact that Mel chooses the word instrument to refer to Stannis is very telling because it suggests he is a mere tool to facilitate Mel’s/R’hllor’s designs. The “instrument” has no conscious say in the matter, nor does it knows it is being employed as such. I feel this is the case with Stannis and Mel. Stannis started off his association with her intending to be the player and without realizing it ended up being just the instrument.

The thing is though, that mel really doesn't have that much pull over stannis. I think when it was at its worst was after the blackwater when he was listening only to her. But that time is long past. I don't see stannis as mels instrument at all, he defies her all the time.

ETA:@ mladen and talal wtf is 15-6? is that a score of some sort? I am confused by this, and curious as hell what it means.

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Yes, but look at that. Different husband would make quite a fuss about it, and he just handled it quietly... They are equal, but there are times that Cat truly dominates his will, Sansa/Joffrey marriage and posoition of the Hand is certainly best example of it.

Yeap, 15-6...

Not necessarily, there is a difference in taking council and being submissive. Just because he listens to his wife and values her advice doesn't make him submissive.

Sure a different husband may have made a fuss but not because he was not submissive, he would just have a different personality than Ned. Ned doesn't need to rage or yell to get his point across. I think Cat mentions this when she recollects that conversation, that she had never been more scared by Ned or something.

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ETA:@ mladen and talal wtf is 15-6? is that a score of some sort? I am confused by this, and curious as hell what it means.

Haha. Were competing on who posts in a thread first. As you can see Im a bit far behind, but Ill turn things around.

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Haha. Were competing on who posts in a thread first. As you can see Im a bit far behind, but Ill turn things around.

Oh i see lol.

Jon was never submissive to Ygritte. She was a loudmouth and he was a quiet, patient guy. She never controlled him.

You sure about that? I seem to recall her calling the shots and telling him what to do, as well as pressuring him into sex. Seems like he submitted to her to me.

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ETA:@ mladen and talal wtf is 15-6? is that a score of some sort? I am confused by this, and curious as hell what it means.

It's a personal score between me and Talal. He challanged me to see whether he can beat me in posting before me. You can't beat First Poster... People are so curious about the score :)

Not necessarily, there is a difference in taking council and being submissive. Just because he listens to his wife and values her advice doesn't make him submissive.

Yes, but here Cat did more than just counsel him, she completely changed his mind, and convinced him into something he sensed was a bad idea...

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She definitely took the initiative as he was reluctant to get into the relationship in the first place (he was also an inexperienced virgin who took his vows too seriously), but when did she ever 'tell him what to do'?

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Totally agree with everyone about LF. It's why Sansa will be his undoing at some point. Can't wait!

Another interesting relationship is between Roose and Ramsay. Ramsay is usually dominant to the point of being sadistic sociopath. That all changes when Roose comes into the picture.

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She definitely took the initiative as he was reluctant to get into the relationship in the first place (he was also an inexperienced virgin who took his vows to seriously), but when did she ever 'tell him what to do'?

Wasn't she pretty much in charge of him for all intents and purposes being as he was a freshly turned crow? I recall her bossing him around allot, I will have to search for quotes.

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Jon was never submissive to Ygritte. She was a loudmouth and he was a quiet, patient guy. She never controlled him.

She definitely took the initiative as he was reluctant to get into the relationship in the first place (he was also an inexperienced virgin who took his vows too seriously), but when did she ever 'tell him what to do'?

I really think that Ygritte had the wolf's share of the influence in that relationship. She was always pushing, Jon was always submitting to her. She had a personality very similar to his mother, it seems to me. And yes, I do remember a few instances where Ygritte told Jon what to do. Not in the sense of "go wash the dishes," obviously, but she exercised more control in their relationship, IMO.

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It's a personal score between me and Talal. He challanged me to see whether he can beat me in posting before me. You can't beat First Poster... People are so curious about the score :)

Yes, but here Cat did more than just counsel him, she completely changed his mind, and convinced him into something he sensed was a bad idea...

Right. Which is Ned taking council. Just because she changed his mind doesn't make him submissive. It makes Ned reasonable and open minded.

Jaime mentions he would murder at Cersei's command. I doubt Ned would. The point being, that at a cerain point, Ned would not take Cat's advice into consideration.

Essentially, Ned and Cat's relationship lacks a dominant aspect from either party that would have to be included if either were to be considered submissive.

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Wasn't she pretty much in charge of him for all intents and purposes being as he was a freshly turned crow? I recall her bossing him around allot, I will have to search for quotes.

Nah. Jon was in a position where every action was something he didnt want to do, and even then Mance/Tormund acknowledged his boldness. Ygritte was the more experienced one in the relationship and that definitely played a part, but she never controlled him. And he never controlled her for that matter.

Jon is introverted, perspective, and calm. Ygritte is extroverted, impatient, and aggressive. She was the 'louder' of the two but she never dominated him. If you think of Jon as a submissive person you're missing the mark on his character.

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I really think that Ygritte had the wolf's share of the influence in that relationship. She was always pushing, Jon was always submitting to her. She had a personality very similar to his mother, it seems to me. And yes, I do remember a few instances where Ygritte told Jon what to do. Not in the sense of "go wash the dishes," obviously, but she exercised more control in their relationship, IMO.

For me, You know nothing, Jon Snow repetative line is a clear sign who was more dominant in that relationship...

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For me, You know nothing, Jon Snow repetative line is a clear sign who was more dominant in that relationship...

It also fits well when followed by "about your parents."

But yes, I agree. And I think the same was alluded to about Lyanna's relationship with Rhaegar, as I hinted at above.

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Essentially, Ned and Cat's relationship lacks a dominant aspect from either party that would have to be included if either were to be considered submissive.

I agree on this, but that scene shows how influential Cat is on her husband... I don't think of Ned as submissive, introvert, quiet perhaps, but submissive no. He has strong personality. Also, I think that lack of dominant aspect in their marriage is reason why it worked so well.

It also fits well when followed by "about your parents."

But yes, I agree. And I think the same was alluded to about Lyanna's relationship with Rhaegar, as I hinted at above.

Hmmm, I am not sure how exactly Lyanna was more dominant over Rhaegar, but she showed strong personality in regard to her brothers. She replied to Ned about Robert quite honestly and she poured wine on Benjen for laughing at her. She was alpha female of the family...

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What about Jon and Ygritte? I always found him the passive one in this relationship.

I say not. Theirs is almost an equitable relationship by ASOIAF standards. Ygritte's personality is obviously more forward and outgoing so it provides a contrast to Jon’s quieter one but I wouldn't say he was submissive. At best, I’d think Jon was submissive in certain aspects by design. He had a purpose to fulfill and couldn’t fully be himself or else he run the risk of being discovered and killed. He was in a completely unfamiliar environment-Ygritte’s environment- and to fulfill the task at hand it was easier if he had just tag along for the ride.

I think his refusal to kill the old Man even when Ygritte entreated him (not to mention Styr’s threat), his willingness to leave the wilding party even before Summer enabled him to and his resolution in aiding the NW to fight them fully aware that Ygritte was there, shows that Jon wasn’t a submissive partner in the relationship, but a guy who kept a side from her personality from her; the part that was loyal to the NW.

The thing is though, that mel really doesn't have that much pull over stannis. I think when it was at its worst was after the blackwater when he was listening only to her. But that time is long past. I don't see stannis as mels instrument at all, he defies her all the time.

Based on what? Am really curious on what are you basing this assertion. Post Blackwater we have the following:

-He lets her stage that god awful, ridiculous, over the top ceremony when the wildings are let in. A ceremony where he didn’t even appear exactly comfortable, which is no surprise since he’s anything but flashy.

- The NW brothers (who appear never to have heard tales or gossips of this Red Priest due to their high levels of isolation with the rest of Westeros) are very much aware that Mel is Stannis “true queen”. They are making these observations based on first hand perception which indicates that her influence over Stannis is very palpable to those around them. Her influence over him is perceived as so predominant that Jon genuinely feared for Aemon and Mance's baby on account of her, even with Stannis' reputation of being a just man. The fact that his reputation of a just man is clouded by the general perception of Mel's power over him shows that Mel's influence over him is there for everyone to see.

- She’ still present in important meetings even when important lords and counselors are dismissed. Jon makes note of this.

- He appears to have swallowed the AA bs

- He was still sleeping with her while at the Wall

I think the reason it might be perceive that her influence is less is because around half the book we no longer see them together (by the way I wonder who's decision was it to leave Mel at the Wall. Based on her shadow making designs on Jon and her excitement on the magic of the Wall increasing her powers I'd say hers). The most I can say is that, unlike post-Blackwater, he seems able to function without her.

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For me, You know nothing, Jon Snow repetative line is a clear sign who was more dominant in that relationship...

It depends on what we mean or how we define 'submissive'. Certain personalities can create a perception that someone is dominant and that another person is submissive. Take Robert and Ned, for example. Who would be viewed as dominant and who as submissive? But it seems to me that Ned is the more dominant of the two even though he is quiet and reserved.

The same can be said for Jon and Ygritte. I think Jon is happy letting Ygritte make suggestions or even decisions for the both of them as long as it's a decision that he agrees with. I don't think that necessarily makes him submissive.

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Hmmm, I am not sure how exactly Lyanna was more dominant over Rhaegar, but she showed strong personality in regard to her brothers. She replied to Ned about Robert quite honestly and she poured wine on Benjen for laughing at her. She was alpha female of the family...

I was mostly extrapolating from what we are told about Lyanna by various people and what we are told about Rhaegar. Lyanna had a far more dominant personality than Rhaegar seems to have had, in my opinion. Much like Arya, I don't think she would take anyone's shit, so to speak.

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Totally agree with everyone about LF. It's why Sansa will be his undoing at some point. Can't wait!

Another interesting relationship is between Roose and Ramsay. Ramsay is usually dominant to the point of being sadistic sociopath. That all changes when Roose comes into the picture.

First off, thanks for the compliments, guys. Thought this would be an interesting topic to explore, and E-Ro helped me out quite a bit, so give him props too. (He loves the attention.)

Yep, LF is a closet sub. Sansa will probably end up being his undoing. And tbh, though LF is a favorite villain of mine, I'm looking forward to that. Sansa is first in my heart, and I can't forgive LF after all the horrible things he's done.

Roose and Ramsay is an interesting one. I actually am weirdly fascinated by the Roose/Ramsay relationship. Ramsay thinks he's dominant -- I mean, look at how he treats Reek, that's the ultimate in domination. But bring in Roose, and that all changes. Roose completely dominates his son.

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It depends on what we mean or how we define 'submissive'. Certain personalities can create a perception that someone is dominant and that another person is submissive. Take Robert and Ned, for example. Who would be viewed as dominant and who as submissive? But it seems to me that Ned is the more dominant of the two even though he is quiet and reserved.

I would actually consider Ned the more submissive of the two, even if we are not taking Nedbert into account. Ned is stoic and quiet but, in my opinion, Cat is the stronger and more influential in their relationship. Ned has the strength of stone, but Cat has the power of the rushing river, and the river is the more powerful.

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