The Rightful Heir to the Iron Throne

[Bartimus Stone]

Robert won the Throne by conquest, this makes Stannis the rightful heir.

The others are Targ claimants who would need to conquer Westeros (or at least KL) to take the IT.

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[otherbeef]

It all depends on where you stand.

If Aegon is a Blackfyre the argument can still be made that he is the rightful heir. Daemon was ligitimized by his father and was the oldest of his sons, so many believed he had the rightful claim over his trueborn brother Daeron (who was at least 10 years his junior IIRC) and also believed that Aegon gifting him the family Valyrian steel sword was a sign that he wanted him to succeed him.

Daeron was older than Daemon. Even after being legitimized Daemon would be behind all Daeron's offspring in succession matters.

[Pikachu101]

Didn't you say up thread that the Targaryens (via Dany or Jon) have no claim to rule? If so, you are assuming that there is a legal framework upon which to render this judgement, not to mention the fact that there would also need to be another legal framework in place for a legitimate rebellion that nullifies any future claims on the throne made by the deposed dynasty. Dany and Jon have just a legitimate claim as anyone else you mentioned. Who says they can't take the throne? You?

The Targaryens don't have a claim to rule because they lost the throne. If Dany wants it back she can't walk in, demand her rights and expect everyone to give it to her. She's going to have to conquer Westeros again.

Legality means nothing, it's all about power and power resides where men believe it resides. So far, no one believes the Targaryens should be in power.

[boojam]

There are many claimants to the Iron Throne, but there are only four main characters descended from the Aegon the Conqueror who have a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne. Their order of precedence depends on two contingencies: Is Aegon a Blackfyre? Is Jon the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

If Aegon’s a Blackfyre and Jon is illegitimate then:

1. Dany

2. Stannis

3. Aegon

4. Jon

I predict Stannis will lead the unified northern forces, while Dany leads the unified Southron forces, and they will join together when Stannis bends the knee to Dany.

Thoughts?

According to the Targaryen westeros ruling tree there never was a sole ruling Queen.

(If we can trust that tree.)

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

Is there any law that recognize the Right of Conquest in Westeros?.....Remember that Westeros is a nation, a United Kingdom created by Aegon Targeryan so there's no legal precedent of that so called right making the Baratheons usurpers as long as any Targeryan (Viserys or Daenerys) or Blackfyre stay alive.

[Knight Of Winter]

Is there any law that recognize the Right of Conquest in Westeros?.....Remember that Westeros is a nation, a United Kingdom created by Aegon Targeryan so there's no legal precedent of that so called right making the Baratheons usurpers as long as any Targeryan (Viserys or Daenerys) or Blackfyre stay alive.

There are no codified laws in Westeros. Deposed lords and dynasties aren't going to sue their conqueror in front of court of law - but either accept their defeat or attempt to strike back. As much legal claim as Targs or Blackfyres might have, it means absolutely nothing if they can't back it up with some army.

If your question was - do Westerosi people recognize right of conquest as valid way of claiming a throne - than the answer is obviously yes. I think Renly had the gist of it - noone but maesters care for bloodlines and claims.

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

How many times must i say this, there is no one true rightful ruler in Westeros. Only right of conquest is true. If you have the power to TAKE the throne and KEEP it then you are the rightful ruler. Other than that its a crap shoot.

So what was the reason for Ned Stark to try to give the IT to Stannis B if there's no one rightful king?

[kiz_ismet]

Gendry.

[Knight Of Winter]

So what was the reason for Ned Stark to try to give the IT to Stannis B if there's no one rightful king?

Because Ned believed Stannis was the rightful heir. Just as most people believe Joffrey is, or some who believe it's actually Dany. Power resides where men believe it resides - it's as simple as that. And if everyone believes power resides within same person, than that person truly is rightful king/queen.

[The Prince of Ice]

So what was the reason for Ned Stark to try to give the IT to Stannis B if there's no one rightful king?

Because its the honorable thing to do and he is the next in line of succesion. Just because the Baratheons took the throne doesnt mean their desecendants are the rightful king. The rightful king if there is one is the one who conquers the throne so the only Baratheon who is a rightful king is Robert.

As the Winter Knight said power resides only where we think it resides.

[Aderyn the Sly]

Daeron was older than Daemon. Even after being legitimized Daemon would be behind all Daeron's offspring in succession matters.

My bad, thanks for that. :dunce: The "Dianna the Defient" incident in the Maidenvault came after Aegon had already married his sister and had Daeron (when she asked to be released of the marriage). It's hard to keep the timelines straight sometimes.

[GCabot]

Robert won the Iron Throne by conquest, but his claim to the Iron Throne derives from his Targaryen ancestry.

And those that say that Robert's blood was irrelevant because the Starks, Arryns, and Lannisters hated the Targaryens, are conveniently forgetting that half of the Seven Kingdoms fought on the side of the Targaryens during Robert's Rebellion. If the rebels wanted to keep the Seven Kingdoms united, they had to find a way to placate the Targaryen supporters and legitimize the new ruler in some way in their eyes. Robert's Targaryen ancestry allowed the rebels to claim that this was not a mere usurpation of the Iron Throne, but rather a intra-dynastic dispute.

[devilrob6]

Because its the honorable thing to do and he is the next in line of succesion. Just because the Baratheons took the throne doesnt mean their desecendants are the rightful king. The rightful king if there is one is the one who conquers the throne so the only Baratheon who is a rightful king is Robert.

As the Winter Knight said power resides only where we think it resides.

In that way there will be war after every death king, The Baratheon descendants are the next kings. That's why Joffrey and Tommen are accepted as king by most of the kingdoms, they are considered the Baratheon heirs. So if someone wants to conquer the throne they'll have to conquer it from them. AND get the support of the Westerosi lords, like Robert did.

Starting from Robert as king, Stannis is the heir based on what we know. He only misses support. He can't prove that Cersei's kids aren't Roberts, he is impopular, he's a threat to some of the main players of the game of thrones, like LF and Varys and the Tyrells. That's why he isn't on the iron throne.

[Lehnaru]

Robert won the throne by right of conquest and Stannis is his heir. After Stannis, the next in line would be Shireen. Only then would Aegon, who is either the son of Rhaegar or a Blackfyre (a legitimised Targaryen bastard essentially), be in line. Before or after Dany would depend on his parentage. As for Jon Snuuu, he's either Ned Stark's bastard or Rhaegar's son. If he's Rhaegar's son and he's a bastard, he's not in the line of succession. If Rhaegar decided to marry Lyanna, then Jon would still be behind Aegon (if he's Rhaegar's son), Stannis, and Shireen. He'll have to conquer the throne and kill the Baratheons to become King, which I most certainly hope does not happen. However, Dany has dragons and a horribly persistent personality, so if anyone is going to win the throne, it's going to be her. I can see Stannis bending the knee to a true Targaryen.

[Tony Soprano]

Robert overthrew the Targaryen dynasty and upon his ascension to the Iron Throne, established House Baratheon as the new Royal House of Westeros. Since Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are illegitimate bastards with no Baratheon blood in their veins, they have no claim to the Iron Throne, which means the Iron Throne, by law, belongs to Robert's younger brother - Stannis.

Dany can be Queen. So can Aegon. Even Euron can be King of Westeros. If any of them are powerful enough to overthrow Tommen, all they have to do is walk up and sit their ass on the Iron Throne, which is exactly what Robert did. That's called right of conquest.

Anyone can be King. But if we're taking the law into account, there's only one man who has the right to sit on the Iron Throne - Stannis Baratheon.

[Joe Pine]

The Iron Throne or Kingdom of Westeros was imposed on the continent through Conquest.

Robert's rebellion was a civil war between factions. If all Cersei's children are Jaime's then the argument falls to Stannis as his younger brother to succeed. But Robert never queried the parentage of his children as King.

For me, Tommen is the rightful king, until it can be proven or accepted by the populous of the seven kings that he is not Robert's child. The only means or mechanism to displace Tommen is through the High Septon and his church or the Maesters. I can't see Jaime doing so.

Arguably the sovereignty of the seven kingdoms lies with the small folk, their culture and beliefs feed up to their lords and the high lords of each of the former kingdoms. Belief in who the rightful king is, might be as important as claim or legality. Some of the claimants aren't popular or are unknown to those at large.

Conquest or might of arms is going to be a big factor, but all the claimants will seek the word of the High Septon or the Maesters to back their claim.

Tommen, Stannis and Aegon make a three way contest, before Dany arrives or Jon can be involved. There will not be a grand council to hear the claims and it's even possible that a factional conflict by the existing three claimants might leave Westeros in a poor state before the forces of the Vale or Dorne take the field.

That assumes a status quo at the wall, which I think is unlikely, the Others will come south with winter. The Nights Watch, Wildings/Free Folk and the remnants of the northern peoples may end up coming south to escape the Others and that will change the dynamic south of the neck and in the Riverlands.

There's a kingdom to be fought for, but are the claimants looking to fight the right enemy?

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

There are many claimants to the Iron Throne, but there are only four main characters descended from the Aegon the Conqueror who have a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne. Their order of precedence depends on two contingencies: Is Aegon a Blackfyre? Is Jon the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

If Aegon is really Aegon and Jon is legitimate then:

1. Aegon

2. Jon

3. Dany

4. Stannis

If Aegon is a Blackfyre and Jon is legitimate then:

1. Jon

2. Dany

3. Stannis

4. Aegon

If Aegon’s a Blackfyre and Jon is illegitimate then:

1. Dany

2. Stannis

3. Aegon

4. Jon

If Aegon is Aegon and Jon is illegitimate then:

1. Aegon

2. Dany

3. Stannis

4. Jon

You’ll notice that Aegon, Jon, or Dany could all be the rightful heir under the right conditions. Stannis, however, never is. This is very important because Stannis is the one claimant who would willingly give up his claim if confronted with a better one. He has explicitly said that he doesn’t want the IT, but is fighting for it because he’s the rightful king, which he is as far as he knows. (I’m not including Jon as a ‘claimant’ because he hasn’t put forward any claim to the IT.)

I don’t see Stannis kneeling to anyone with a questionable claim, and even if Jon and Aegon are Rhaegar’s legitimate kids, their claims don’t have a lot of evidence behind them. I see Stannis only kneeling to Dany, the one person whose claim is better in every scenario.

I predict Stannis will lead the unified northern forces, while Dany leads the unified Southron forces, and they will join together when Stannis bends the knee to Dany.

Thoughts?

Stannis does not recognize the Targeryon Dynasty. He rejected that when he, you know, joined the war to overthrow the Targ dynasty.

I can understand why some consider the Targs the rightful rulers of the Iron Throne. I don't understand why some people continue to believe Stannis does.

1) He actively fought against the Targ dynasty when it needed him the most. He played a fairly important part by keeping the Tyrell armies tied up and essentially out of the picture until the war all but won. He believes in family before his oaths of loyalty to the Throne. This is SUPER important and is tied to point three.

2) If he gave a damn about House Targ, he would have taken up the banner for them after Robert's death. It's one thing to side with your brother over the royal family. Declaring himself king is an entirely different situation.

3) Going by Stannis's claim, who becomes the ruler of Westeros when Stannis dies? Shireen. He rebelled against the dynasty before for his family. Why would he throw away his daughter's claim to the throne? The only way it makes sense is for her safety. Of course, we this almost-certain-foreshadowing during our first meeting of Shireen: “I had bad dreams,” Shireen told him. “About the dragons. They were coming to eat me.”

Shireen and the Targs are not destined to get along.

[mrunderhill]

All the information we have about the Rebellion has Robert as the leader from virtually the start. Jon may have first raised his banners, but Robert was the focal point and the military commander general. Out of the three he was always the leader. This does not necessarily mean he would be king though. Individually Robert was the weakest out of the three leaders, despite personally being the most accomplished and charismatic. The Targaryen blood is what swayed the others to his favour.

People quote Renly, but Renly was a fool, who nobody seemed to respect much. It takes more than might to hold a throne and claims matter. Renly is the same man, who called Robert a usurper and said he had no real right to be king.

As for the rightful king as long as the king sits on the Iron Throne, the capital is still called Kings Landing and they reign at Maegor's Red Keep it's always going to look to people like a Targaryen should be sitting on the throne. Big changes need to be made to break with the Targaryen traditions completely or else they might as well have a Targaryen back on the throne and one with dragons is even better.

[Starfell]

Daeron was older than Daemon. Even after being legitimized Daemon would be behind all Daeron's offspring in succession matters.

Why? Don't get me wrong, I know that's the done thing, but if Daemon had won then people would probably be placing legitimised bastards in birth order instead. To present the legitimised-bastards-go-after-everyone-else "rule" as a fait accompli rather than a convention that is open to challenge or dispute is, I think, a bit simplistic.

Is there any law that recognize the Right of Conquest in Westeros?.....Remember that Westeros is a nation, a United Kingdom created by Aegon Targeryan so there's no legal precedent of that so called right making the Baratheons usurpers as long as any Targeryan (Viserys or Daenerys) or Blackfyre stay alive.

No, generally people don't make laws that say "fair game to anyone who wants to try and depose me". If you're a monarch then it's very, very dangerous to be seen to endorse usurption for usurption's sake because then people look at you and wonder if they might be able to take you; rinse and repeat at every level of feudalism and the whole system becomes hideously inefficient because nobody wants to commit their resources to anything lest a vassal is planning to overthrow them the moment they look vulnerable.

The test of whether someone is a king or not is whether the Realm accepts them, in the form of a Great Council, or fealty from its Lords. Whether or not somebody is a usurper, there's no test for because it's often a point of view. Is Aegon II a usurper, for example? Is Rhaenyra? You can argue the ins and outs of legitimacy all day, but really it's just a consensual illusion brought on by, amongst other things, time, familiarity, powerful support etc. Because in Westeros, the institution of monarchy isn't backed by an ideology such as divine mandate (at least not to the extent that real world Medieval monarchy was) or a political philosophy (like democracy is with the idea that legitimacy can be derived from consensus)

[Maegor the Cuddly]

Also, it was more than Right of Conquest, The "Targ-Baratheon" line by Robert's grandmother overthrew the ruling Targ line at the time and became the Kings. That's the cut-and-dry of it.