Did Sansa Lose Lady Because of Lying to Arya

[The Prince of Ice]

I just rewatched the second episode of GoT season where the whole arya-joff-sansa situation goes down. Arya and Mycah are training with sticks when they run into Joff and Sansa. Joff wants to duel with Mycah with real swords, Mycah isnt going to do anything so Joff goes on to slice his face. Arya hits him they throw a couple blows back and forth before Nymeria stops it by biting Joff.

Now we go on to the conversation between Cersei, Ned, Bob, Sansa, Joff, and Arya.

Joff says Arya and Mycah attacked them and sicked Nymeria on them. Arya call him a liar then Bob gets all pissed off cause he doesnt know how to handle children.

Then Sansa comes up to the stand, she says she doesnt remember, everything happened too fast which is obviously not true. Now right after that Cersei wants to punish Nymeria and Arya, Bob wasnt going to punish Arya and Nymeria wasnt there.

Now Cersei says "you have another wolf"- couldnt she just let it slide but noooo. Ok im getting off topic but Ned then kills Lady because she is of the North and deserves that.

It seems like to me atleast karma is coming back around to Sansa for lying about Arya and Mycah and then it manifests in Cersei wanting to kill Lady.

Im not saying its the complete literary reason why Lady was taken from Sansa but IMO it aided to it.

I think it was GRRM teaching Sansa a little lesson in family loyalty

What do you think on this?

(I know the Sansa fans are gonna rip me a new asshole for this especially Mladen when he sees this but w/e)

[IRON BANK]

Sansa lied and Lady was the cost of that lie. If she would have told the truth and everything that went along with it. Her story and Arrya's would have matched up leaving Joffrey with nothing to say. However Sansas non commital to tell the truth which is paramount to the same thing as lying gave Cersie the go ahead to do whatever she had her mind set on.which is what she wanted in the first place and that was to rid the girls of their wolves because she was constantly scheming,something. This is why later on within the story we are made aware that Cersie tries to seduce Jaime into killing Arrya on the same night; Cersie is a paranoid sociopath.

[N/A]

will, you're right about that new asshole jK

but i definitely think it factored in her character development later and showed her that people are not to be trusted and that they all like

"Lies and Arbor gold"

also i don't think George is familiar with the term Karma

[The Prince of Ice]

Sansa lied and Lady was the cost of that lie. If she would have told the truth and everything that went along with it. Her story and Arrya's would have matched up leaving Joffrey with nothing to say. However Sansas non commital to tell the truth which is paramount to the same thing as lying gave Cersie the go ahead to do whatever she had her mind set on.which is what she wanted in the first place and that was to rid the girls of their wolves because she was constantly scheming,something. This is why later on within the story we are made aware that Cersie tries to seduce Jaime into killing Arrya on the same night; Cersie is a paranoid sociopath.

Well put. It always seemed to me that was instant karma.

[The Prince of Ice]

will, you're right about that new asshole jK

but i definitely think it factored in her character development later and showed her that people are not to be trusted and that they all like

"Lies and Arbor gold"

also i don't think George is familiar with the term Karma

Ive seen quite a few instances in the series of karma like situations so i would have to disagree.

Robb gets killed because of breaking vows-karma

Tywin Lannister shitty father-Gets shot by his son who he treats like shit then shits himself.-Karma

There are many more but no need to go in further.

I think GRRM has a good concept of Karma.

[N/A]

Ive seen quite a few instances in the series of karma like situations so i would have to disagree.

Robb gets killed because of breaking vows-karma

Tywin Lannister shitty father-Gets shot by his son who he treats like shit then shits himself.-Karma

There are many more but no need to go in further.

I think GRRM has a good concept of Karma.

he has a great concept of relationships and human interactions but karma i don't think so ( a lot of crimes will go unpunished when the series is over )

[Mladen]

Well, we discussed about this on another thread, and mormont and Lyanna Stark made great analysis of the events that happened. Actually, this is all on parents, and not kids. As mormont said 'Robert elevated child feud to state level'. Problem Sansa had was obvious: being between her fiance and her sister. her future and current family. Furthermore, she was 11 year-old child brought in front of entire Robert's court. What could she do? Call the future King, and her husband a liar? Sansa didn't lie, she just pleaded the 5th. Did it help any side? No, because she didn't say neither Arya nor Joffrey was lying. Sansa found diplomatic solution to the problem without getting anyone in further trouble. You all forget that Sansa actually didn't say anything but 'I don't remember', and that's not siding with anyone. She knew the truth, but situation she was in didn't allow her to speak freely.

As for instant karma, with all due respect, it's nonsense. I mean, it's not like she killed someone (and if anyone claims Mycah died because of Sansa, then I will laugh at them and their ignorance), and Lady paid it with her life. Sansa did the only thing she could in that even for adults difficult situation.

And lastly, concerning Lady's death, many believe that this was another example of death paying for life. Theory is that GRRM killed Lady so Bran could live.

And I am not going to rip you, just prove you're wrong... And you are :)

[Sansa_Stark]

will, you're right about that new asshole jK

but i definitely think it factored in her character development later and showed her that people are not to be trusted and that they all like

"Lies and Arbor gold"

also i don't think George is familiar with the term Karma

Yeah. The walk of shame was pretty light punishment for Cersei all things considered.

[The Prince of Ice]

Well, we discussed about this on another thread, and mormont and Lyanna Stark made great analysis of the events that happened. Actually, this is all on parents, and not kids. As mormont said 'Robert elevated child feud to state level'. Problem Sansa had was obvious: being between her fiance and her sister. her future and current family. Furthermore, she was 11 year-old child brought in front of entire Robert's court. What could she do? Call the future King, and her husband a liar? Sansa didn't lie, she just pleaded the 5th. Did it help any side? No, because she didn't say neither Arya nor Joffrey was lying. Sansa found diplomatic solution to the problem without getting anyone in further trouble. You all forget that Sansa actually didn't say anything but 'I don't remember', and that's not siding with anyone. She knew the truth, but situation she was in didn't allow her to speak freely.

As for instant karma, with all due respect, it's nonsense. I mean, it's not like she killed someone (and if anyone claims Mycah died because of Sansa, then I will laugh at them and their ignorance), and Lady paid it with her life. Sansa did the only thing she could in that even for adults difficult situation.

And lastly, concerning Lady's death, many believe that this was another example of death paying for life. Theory is that GRRM killed Lady so Bran could live.

And I am not going to rip you, just prove you're wrong... And you are :)

Arya called the prince a liar why couldnt Sansa?

I know she pleaded the 5th but in a way when your sister is be called a liar and you know shes not and you say you dont remember thats lying. So technically she didnt plead the fifth, lol i just contradicted myself. By my recollection im not proven wrong yet so fire away.

I said nothing of the sort that Sansa caused Mycahs death, thats all on Sandor Clegane.

You defend Sansa to no end as i do Arya much respect Mladen.

[Mladen]

Arya called the prince a liar why couldnt Sansa?

I know she pleaded the 5th but in a way when your sister is be called a liar and you know shes not and you say you dont remember thats lying. So technically she didnt plead the fifth, lol i just contradicted myself.

She never called Arya a liar. Please quote me where she said Arya lied during testimony. Basically she wasn't siding with neither Joffrey or Arya. And Sansa was going to become his wife and Queen, She was taught not to confront her fiance, especially in such public place.

[mrunderhill]

Well, we discussed about this on another thread, and mormont and Lyanna Stark made great analysis of the events that happened. Actually, this is all on parents, and not kids. As mormont said 'Robert elevated child feud to state level'. Problem Sansa had was obvious: being between her fiance and her sister. her future and current family. Furthermore, she was 11 year-old child brought in front of entire Robert's court. What could she do? Call the future King, and her husband a liar? Sansa didn't lie, she just pleaded the 5th. Did it help any side? No, because she didn't say neither Arya nor Joffrey was lying. Sansa found diplomatic solution to the problem without getting anyone in further trouble. You all forget that Sansa actually didn't say anything but 'I don't remember', and that's not siding with anyone. She knew the truth, but situation she was in didn't allow her to speak freely.

As for instant karma, with all due respect, it's nonsense. I mean, it's not like she killed someone (and if anyone claims Mycah died because of Sansa, then I will laugh at them and their ignorance), and Lady paid it with her life. Sansa did the only thing she could in that even for adults difficult situation.

And lastly, concerning Lady's death, many believe that this was another example of death paying for life. Theory is that GRRM killed Lady so Bran could live.

And I am not going to rip you, just prove you're wrong... And you are :)

When you crack the Crown Prince's head open and then set a direwolf to maul his arm, its a state level crime. Robert was completely right to have a trial. This could have ended up a lot worse. Arya was accused of very serious crimes.

If Arya had the guts to call the future king a liar, then why didn't Sansa? She had to tell the truth. Sansa lied. I am tired of this she pleaded the fifth. She said she could not remember, but we know she could. So she lied and left her sister to face the consequences. Arya spoke freely, but Sansa chose Joffrey over Arya.

Yes I do think that Sansa betraying her family, led to her losing her wolf.

[The Prince of Ice]

She never called Arya a liar. Please quote me where she said Arya lied during testimony. Basically she wasn't siding with neither Joffrey or Arya. And Sansa was going to become his wife and Queen, She was taught not to confront her fiance, especially in such public place.

I was talking about Joffery calling Arya a liar, say im Sansa, if my sister (Arya) is being called a liar and i know shes not and i get called up and i say i dont remember thats a lie. Fact.

[Sansa_Stark]

When you crack the Crown Prince's head open and then set a direwolf to maul his arm, its a state level crime. Robert was completely right to have a trial. This could have ended up a lot worse. Arya was accused of very serious crimes.

If Arya had the guts to call the future king a liar, then why didn't Sansa? She had to tell the truth. Sansa lied. I am tired of this she pleaded the fifth. She said she could not remember, but we know she could. So she lied and left her sister to face the consequences. Arya spoke freely, but Sansa chose Joffrey over Arya.

Yes I do think that Sansa betraying her family, led to her losing her wolf.

In this case Sansa was a bad character and Mrunderhill is right.

She later remembers exactly what happens and says it to the Tyrells exactly how it happens.

[Father of Hosts]

Agreed that Sansa is in a tough spot. Could she have told the truth? Absolutely.

Did she make the right call by playing the drunk card? I would tend to think so. She is in a precarious situation and I think the way she handles it speaks to her inherent understanding for the game. Not necessarily that she is fully aware of what she is doing but that she is acting on instinct. Which would obviously tie in to the (hopeful) character progression that many think she is making.

To finish though, I think losing her wolf was symbolic of the sacrifices that one makes to play the game.

[Clariana]

Why resort to karma when we have hubris and nemesis??? In any event it's been said several times that we westerners misunderstand and over-simplify the concept of karma...

As for lying, well, Sansa did lie... Not about what happened but in respect of her own state of mind (saying that she couldn't remember when she could...), she had the chance to come clean, but didn't. In the circumstances that may have been very understandable but that doesn't mean it was right. Sansa found a political solution satisfying no-one and thus precipitated a crisis for which she had to pay a very personal price.

[The Prince of Ice]

When you crack the Crown Prince's head open and then set a direwolf to maul his arm, its a state level crime. Robert was completely right to have a trial. This could have ended up a lot worse. Arya was accused of very serious crimes.

If Arya had the guts to call the future king a liar, then why didn't Sansa? She had to tell the truth. Sansa lied. I am tired of this she pleaded the fifth. She said she could not remember, but we know she could. So she lied and left her sister to face the consequences. Arya spoke freely, but Sansa chose Joffrey over Arya.

Yes I do think that Sansa betraying her family, led to her losing her wolf.

Thank you mrunderhill

[IRON BANK]

Arya called the prince a liar why couldnt Sansa?

I know she pleaded the 5th but in a way when your sister is be called a liar and you know shes not and you say you dont remember thats lying. So technically she didnt plead the fifth, lol i just contradicted myself. By my recollection im not proven wrong yet so fire away.

I said nothing of the sort that Sansa caused Mycahs death, thats all on Sandor Clegane.

You defend Sansa to no end as i do Arya much respect Mladen.

I agree: to say you don't remember is a lie within itself (especially if you do). Explaining the situation thoroughly would have helped and shown Sansa who these people actually were and what their real intentions actually are. By lying Sansa has in effect blamed Arrya and let Joffrey off the hook.

[mrunderhill]

Arya called Joffrey a liar.

"Liar!" Arya yelled.

[The Prince of Ice]

Arya called Joffrey a liar.

"Liar!" Arya yelled.

Joffery returned the remark i believe but dont quote me.

[mrunderhill]

Joffery returned the remark i believe but dont quote me.

He told her to shut up and then Robert tells them to both shut up.