Did Sansa Lose Lady Because of Lying to Arya

[JLE]

I actually wonder if it was Ned himself teaching Sansa the lesson - he knew perfectly well that Sansa was lying, and had already seen enough of Joffrey to know that so was he.

Sansa lies and refuses to stick by her family, the family of wolves: Sansa loses her wolf. Stick by the family, the family sticks by you: show disloyalty and the family will say you are Not One Of Them.

Which begs the question: In future, will Sansa remember that she is a wolf the next time her loyalties are called into question, and try to show loyalty to the wolves? Or will she try to strike out on her own, with disastrous results?

[The Prince of Ice]

I actually wonder if it was Ned himself teaching Sansa the lesson - he knew perfectly well that Sansa was lying, and had already seen enough of Joffrey to know that so was he.

Sansa lies and refuses to stick by her family, the family of wolves: Sansa loses her wolf. Stick by the family, the family sticks by you: show disloyalty and the family will say you are Not One Of Them.

Which begs the question: In future, will Sansa remember that she is a wolf the next time her loyalties are called into question, and try to show loyalty to the wolves? Or will she try to strike out on her own, with disastrous results?

Ned wasnt going to teach Sansa a leason through killing Lady thats just wrong, she didnt do anything to deserve it. (Lady i mean)

Theres only 2 reason Ned killed Lady, The Royal Family ordered it and Lady was of the North and desrved better.

Also Ned is probably sortve in the same situation as Bob he doesnt know who to believe.

[Where Boars Glow]

When you crack the Crown Prince's head open and then set a direwolf to maul his arm, its a state level crime. Robert was completely right to have a trial. This could have ended up a lot worse. Arya was accused of very serious crimes.

If Arya had the guts to call the future king a liar, then why didn't Sansa? She had to tell the truth. Sansa lied. I am tired of this she pleaded the fifth. She said she could not remember, but we know she could. So she lied and left her sister to face the consequences. Arya spoke freely, but Sansa chose Joffrey over Arya.

Yes I do think that Sansa betraying her family, led to her losing her wolf.

it's true in The targaryen regime you could lose a hand just for laying it on a person of the royal blood.

[butterbumps!]

Those who attribute the loss of Lady to Sansa, in any capacity as a contributing factor, and/or that her remaining neutral was a "poor choice," are sorely mistaken.

First of all, let's get out of the way that Sansa's lie is strictly contained to her staying silent and siding with neither. Her lie helps neither Joffrey nor Arya. So let's get that clear. She doesn't side with Joffrey's version of events. She tells her father exactly what happened the night Arya disappears, so Ned knows the truth all throughout this farce of a trial.

Secondly, what happens if Sansa sides with Arya? Let's say she admits that Joffrey attacked Mycah first. This would not have mattered, that is, the truth would not have saved Arya here. The truth of the story is that Joffrey attacks Mycah first, prompting Arya to attack Joffrey to defend her (smallfolk) friend. How in heavens name would testifying to this in a court of the king help Arya? In truth, Joffrey did not attack Arya until Arya attacked him. Does anyone sincerely believe that if Sansa came forward with the revelation that Joffrey threatened a peasant (supposedly out of chivalry according to the scene) and was subsequently attacked by Arya, that Arya would be exonerated?

For those still unconvinced that the truth would actually be more damaging to Arya, we have precedent for such things. In The Hedge Knight, Dunk is put on trial for protecting a smallfolk puppeteer against the Crown Prince, and would have received capital punishment had he not chosen a trial by combat.

Thirdly, what is incontrovertible about this whole affair is that Joffrey does, in fact, have a wolf bite on his arm. There is nothing Sansa can say-- especially not the truth, which would confirm that Nymeria attacked Joffrey-- to negate the fact that Joffrey's arm is evidence of a wolf attack.

The truth of the attack, that is, what actually happened, is utterly justified from our POV of Arya's actions, and she behaved gallantly there, but sadly, this gallantry puts her on the wrong side of the law when it comes to trial. Sansa's lie actually did save Arya from a potentially worse fate (striking the Crown Prince would normally result in a loss of the attacker's hand, and she was, in fact, the one who attacked Joffrey first).

If you want to blame anyone for how this played out, thank Robert, for turning a juvenile scuffle into a political trial, and thank Cersei, for reminding him that "we have a wolf."

[Mladen]

I actually wonder if it was Ned himself teaching Sansa the lesson - he knew perfectly well that Sansa was lying, and had already seen enough of Joffrey to know that so was he.

That's why he felt so miserable, that's why he actually pleaded Robert... I mean... How anyone can think, yet alone say something like this when we have Ned's POV that disputes this claim on every possible level?

Sansa lies and refuses to stick by her family, the family of wolves: Sansa loses her wolf. Stick by the family, the family sticks by you: show disloyalty and the family will say you are Not One Of Them.

Interestingly, Arya loses her wolf too, not on the same level, yes, but she loses it. Jon was separated from Ghost, and Robb didn't listen to Grey wind. Sansa didn't show disloyalty, she just didn;t know what to do in extremly difficult situation... And Sansa did so many things in ASOIAF that actually proves she is One of Them.

Which begs the question: In future, will Sansa remember that she is a wolf the next time her loyalties are called into question, and try to show loyalty to the wolves? Or will she try to strike out on her own, with disastrous results?

No, everything that happened after proved Sansa's loyalty to Starks? And also, let us not pretend like Starks are the most loyal family to each other. Lyanna abandoned her family, there is a doubt Brandon slept with girl his brother loved, Robb left his sisters on mercy of the Lannisters... Don't act like Sansa is the first Stark who did something against her family, and comparing what she did to previously mentioned Brandon, Lyanna and Robb, Sansa looks rather loyal... Also, the fact she preyed for brother who couldn't care less for her is a wonderful sign of her loyalty... If you hate Sansa as a character, that;s fine, but her loyalty is indisputable... Not on childish level with arguments with Arya, but on a very deep, personal level...

[The Prince of Ice]

Those who attribute the loss of Lady to Sansa, in any capacity as a contributing factor, and/or that her remaining neutral was a "poor choice," are sorely mistaken.

First of all, let's get out of the way that Sansa's lie is strictly contained to her staying silent and siding with neither. Her lie helps neither Joffrey nor Arya. So let's get that clear. She doesn't side with Joffrey's version of events. She tells her father exactly what happened the night Arya disappears, so Ned knows the truth all throughout this farce of a trial.

Secondly, what happens if Sansa sides with Arya? Let's say she admits that Joffrey attacked Mycah first. This would not have mattered, that is, the truth would not have saved Arya here. The truth of the story is that Joffrey attacks Mycah first, prompting Arya to attack Joffrey to defend her (smallfolk) friend. How in heavens name would testifying to this in a court of the king help Arya? In truth, Joffrey did not attack Arya until Arya attacked him. Does anyone sincerely believe that if Sansa came forward with the revelation that Joffrey threatened a peasant (supposedly out of chivalry according to the scene) and was subsequently attacked by Arya, that Arya would be exonerated?

For those still unconvinced that the truth would actually be more damaging to Arya, we have precedent for such things. In The Hedge Knight, Dunk is put on trial for protecting a smallfolk puppeteer against the Crown Prince, and would have received capital punishment had he not chosen a trial by combat.

Thirdly, what is incontrovertible about this whole affair is that Joffrey does, in fact, have a wolf bite on his arm. There is nothing Sansa can say-- especially not the truth, which would confirm that Nymeria attacked Joffrey-- to negate the fact that Joffrey's arm is evidence of a wolf attack.

The truth of the attack, that is, what actually happened, is utterly justified from our POV of Arya's actions, and she behaved gallantly there, but sadly, this gallantry puts her on the wrong side of the law when it comes to trial. Sansa's lie actually did save Arya from a potentially worse fate (striking the Crown Prince would normally result in a loss of the attacker's hand, and she was, in fact, the one who attacked Joffrey first).

If you want to blame anyone for how this played out, thank Robert, for turning a juvenile scuffle into a political trial, and thank Cersei, for reminding him that "we have a wolf."

Thank you for posting this butterbumps it was well put and thought out. However IMO it was a contributing factor to the abundant plot reasons why Lady had to die. Im not blaming Sansa for Ladys death but i do think her lie was a factor but thats my position. Thats one of the questions im gonna ask GRRM when i go ComicCon. Hopefully he will answer it if i word it right.

This is where were gonna have to agree to disagree cause no one is going to win here.

Ill defend Arya to my dying day as Sansa fans will her.

[Light a wight tonight]

also i don't think George is familiar with the term Karma

Martin grew up during the 60s, with all the Eastern philosophy that was floating around back then. Unfamiliar with Karma? Crap, Lennon wrote a song "Instant Karma". You know who Lennon is, right?

Or were you kidding? Hard to tell.

[butterbumps!]

Thank you for posting this butterbumps it was well put and thought out. However IMO it was a contributing factor to the abundant plot reasons why Lady had to die.

This is where were gonna have to agree to disagree cause no one is going to win here.

How do you figure? There is a right answer here, and it's not one that puts causation on Sansa.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Also, the fact she preyed for brother who couldn't care less for her is a wonderful sign of her loyalty...

I need to disagree with this... Not because I doubt Sansa's loyalty, but because fact is, she was ignorant of Robb's decisions regarding her fate. And because I believe this is not true. Robb did care... only, he believed that his sister's well being came second to his duties as a king. You may believe that he had his priorities wrong, or that it proved to be a poor strategy, but to go as far as to say that he couldn't care less, is quite unfair, IMO.

[The Prince of Ice]

How do you figure? There is a right answer here, and it's not one that puts causation on Sansa.

There are many different reasons why Lady had to die because of the plot. Can you prove me wrong that it wasnt a factor? No i think not but go ahead and try. Its all speculation so you cant prove me wrong anyways but please try.

Ive learned in ASOIAF everything isnt as clear cut as right and wrong. Theres a reason why George loves grey characters.

[butterbumps!]

There are many different reasons why Lady had to die because of the plot. Can you prove me wrong that it wasnt a factor? No i think not but go ahead and try.

I did. The post you said was "well put and thought out" should settle the matter. If you want to prove that Sansa's staying neutral is indeed a factor, the burden of proof is on you to argue back on those points. For heavens sake, my post explained how Sansa's not admitting the truth actually helped Arya from being even more brutally punished. So unless you or someone else can show causation, then the matter should be settled, not "agree to disagree" due to some nebulous feeling it was somehow a factor.

[The Prince of Ice]

I did. The post you said was "well put and thought out" should settle the matter. If you want to prove that Sansa's staying neutral is indeed a factor, the burden of proof is on you to argue back on those points. For heavens sake, my post explained how Sansa's not admitting the truth actually helped Arya from being even more brutally punished. So unless you or someone else can show causation, then the matter should be settled, not "agree to disagree" due to some nebulous feeling it was somehow a factor.

Well for one if she did tell the truth i highly doubt Robert would have punished Arya we see how much he cares about Joff, i know Cersei would insist but Bob is not going to punish his best friends daughter for having a childrens fight, he said it himself they fought its over and done with.

Cersei is the one who insisted afterwards but Bob stil chocked it up to a childrens fight and if Sansa did tell the truth i think Bob would be more mad at his son for slicing up a commoner for no reason instead of him being hit by Arya. Bob might even support Arya on the inside after he hears about Joff slicing up Mycah.

Im pretty sure Ned would have thrown down the badge of the Hand of the King if Bob would try and punish Arya for this.

Really this is a matter of personal opinion thats why i say no one can win. Its all in how you interpret it. Thats why i say agree to disagree.

For the record you didnt prove me wrong.

[Mladen]

I need to disagree with this... Not because I doubt Sansa's loyalty, but because fact is, she was ignorant of Robb's decisions regarding her fate. And because I believe this is not true. Robb did care... only, he believed that his sister's well being came second to his duties as a king. You may believe that he had his priorities wrong, or that it proved to be a poor strategy, but to go as far as to say that he couldn't care less, is quite unfair, IMO.

I meant, although she was left alone in KL, she preyed for Robb... I wanted toi say that her prayers are sign of great love and loyalty, not to mention: I must be brave as Robb line... It breaks my heart every time :crying: . As for him, I don't blame him...

Thank you for posting this butterbumps it was well put and thought out. However IMO it was a contributing factor to the abundant plot reasons why Lady had to die. Im not blaming Sansa for Ladys death but i do think her lie was a factor but thats my position. Thats one of the questions im gonna ask GRRM when i go ComicCon. Hopefully he will answer it if i word it right.

This is where were gonna have to agree to disagree cause no one is going to win here.

Ill defend Arya to my dying day as Sansa fans will her.

Thing about Lady's death is that there are so many reasons why this was done, and I think Sansa not saying anything wasn't the one. You have Bran's awakening, girls being without wolves in KL, Sansa being abandoned and alone, left to predators... There are many reasons why Lady had to die...

And also, you will find that most Sansa fans are also Arya fans... We love them both...

snip

You are far better in this than I am, my friend... :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[twizz]

I think Ned said something along the lines of "The lone wolf dies", Sansa didn't stick with her family so she her wolf died. Apparently this wasn't enough to teach her a lesson because her next selfish action (once again playing the lone wolf) causes her to lose her father.

[butterbumps!]

Well for one if she did tell the truth i highly doubt Robert would have punished Arya we see how much he cares about Joff, i know Cersei would insist but Bob is not going to punish his best friends daughter for having a childrens fight, he said it himself they fought its over and done with.

And you base this on what exactly? Isn't the fact that Robert turned this into a political affair at Cersei's behest evidence enough that he is careless about being backed into a corner by wife? Isn't the fact that he cowed to Cersei's request to kill Lady evidence that punishment of the Starks is something Robert would do? I doubt he'd have actually cut off Arya's hand, but one way or another he was going to have to chasten Arya for striking the king, and in all likelihood, the wolf that was available was the wolf that was going to be the punishment proxy.

Im pretty sure Ned would have thrown down the badge of the Hand of the King if Bob would try and punish Arya for this.

The law is actually on Cersei's side. The law says that Arya should have lost a hand, but in reality, it was probably always one of the wolves that would have been punished.

Really this is a matter of personal opinion thats why i say no one can win. Its all in how you interpret it. Thats why i say agree to disagree.

It's not opinion. It's looking at the text. Clear as day. Arya struck Joffrey first. Striking the Crown Prince is a crime. Arya committed a crime. The Starks were going to be chastened. This is not a matter of debate.

For the record you didnt prove me wrong.

Yes, in fact I did.

I think Ned said something along the lines of "The lone wolf dies", Sansa didn't stick with her family so she her wolf died. Apparently this wasn't enough to teach her a lesson because her next selfish action (playing the lone wolf) causes her to lose her father.

Actually, her actions here did help her sister. By not telling the truth, she didn't incriminate Arya, who actually did behave illegally and had every right to be punished according to the law. In case you missed it:

Those who attribute the loss of Lady to Sansa, in any capacity as a contributing factor, and/or that her remaining neutral was a "poor choice," are sorely mistaken.

First of all, let's get out of the way that Sansa's lie is strictly contained to her staying silent and siding with neither. Her lie helps neither Joffrey nor Arya. So let's get that clear. She doesn't side with Joffrey's version of events. She tells her father exactly what happened the night Arya disappears, so Ned knows the truth all throughout this farce of a trial.

Secondly, what happens if Sansa sides with Arya? Let's say she admits that Joffrey attacked Mycah first. This would not have mattered, that is, the truth would not have saved Arya here. The truth of the story is that Joffrey attacks Mycah first, prompting Arya to attack Joffrey to defend her (smallfolk) friend. How in heavens name would testifying to this in a court of the king help Arya? In truth, Joffrey did not attack Arya until Arya attacked him. Does anyone sincerely believe that if Sansa came forward with the revelation that Joffrey threatened a peasant (supposedly out of chivalry according to the scene) and was subsequently attacked by Arya, that Arya would be exonerated?

For those still unconvinced that the truth would actually be more damaging to Arya, we have precedent for such things. In The Hedge Knight, Dunk is put on trial for protecting a smallfolk puppeteer against the Crown Prince, and would have received capital punishment had he not chosen a trial by combat.

Thirdly, what is incontrovertible about this whole affair is that Joffrey does, in fact, have a wolf bite on his arm. There is nothing Sansa can say-- especially not the truth, which would confirm that Nymeria attacked Joffrey-- to negate the fact that Joffrey's arm is evidence of a wolf attack.

The truth of the attack, that is, what actually happened, is utterly justified from our POV of Arya's actions, and she behaved gallantly there, but sadly, this gallantry puts her on the wrong side of the law when it comes to trial. Sansa's lie actually did save Arya from a potentially worse fate (striking the Crown Prince would normally result in a loss of the attacker's hand, and she was, in fact, the one who attacked Joffrey first).

If you want to blame anyone for how this played out, thank Robert, for turning a juvenile scuffle into a political trial, and thank Cersei, for reminding him that "we have a wolf."

[mrunderhill]

Has this thread reall descended into trying to justify Sansa's actions, because the plot needed her wolf to die?

Well for one if she did tell the truth i highly doubt Robert would have punished Arya we see how much he cares about Joff, i know Cersei would insist but Bob is not going to punish his best friends daughter for having a childrens fight, he said it himself they fought its over and done with.

Cersei is the one who insisted afterwards but Bob stil chocked it up to a childrens fight and if Sansa did tell the truth i think Bob would be more mad at his son for slicing up a commoner for no reason instead of him being hit by Arya. Bob might even support Arya on the inside after he hears about Joff slicing up Mycah.

Im pretty sure Ned would have thrown down the badge of the Hand of the King if Bob would try and punish Arya for this.

Really this is a matter of personal opinion thats why i say no one can win. Its all in how you interpret it. Thats why i say agree to disagree.

For the record you didnt prove me wrong.

We may never know for sure, but one thing is obvious and not worth arguing over. If Sansa had told the truth then Lady had less chance of being killed and she would not have gone down her path of betraying her family.

[Mladen]

I think Ned said something along the lines of "The lone wolf dies", Sansa didn't stick with her family so she her wolf died. Apparently this wasn't enough to teach her a lesson because her next selfish action (once again playing the lone wolf) causes her to lose her father.

Do I really need to explain how wrong is the assumption that Sansa had anything with Ned's death?

Has this thread reall descended into trying to justify Sansa's actions, because the plot needed her wolf to die?

Not descended into trying, but just reffering to what;s already there... Sansa's actions were justified by what GRRM has written.

[The Prince of Ice]

And you base this on what exactly? Isn't the fact that Robert turned this into a political affair at Cersei's behest evidence enough that he is careless about being backed into a corner by wife? Isn't the fact that he cowed to Cersei's request to kill Lady evidence that punishment of the Starks is something Robert would do? I doubt he'd have actually cut off Arya's hand, but one way or another he was going to have to chasten Arya for striking the king, and in all likelihood, the wolf that was available was the wolf that was going to be the punishment proxy.

The law is actually on Cersei's side. The law says that Arya should have lost a hand, but in reality, it was probably always one of the wolves that would have been punished.

It's not opinion. It's looking at the text. Clear as day. Arya struck Joffrey first. Striking the Crown Prince is a crime. Arya committed a crime. The Starks were going to be chastened. This is not a matter of debate.

Yes, in fact I did.

Actually, her actions here did help her sister. By not telling the truth, she didn't incriminate Arya, who actually did behave illegally and had every right to be punished according to the law. In case you missed it:

Im aware its a crime but Joffery did say that he was struck by Arya yet Bob said it was a childrens fight and that it was done. Even if Sansa told the truth Arya wouldnt have been punished because Bob saw it as a childrens fight nothing to charge her for. Cersei tried insisting that Arya would be punished but Bob blocked it. Im inclined to think he would do the same if Sansa told the truth because its still a childrens fight it the kings eyes.

Truth or Lie only Lady would be punished IMO.

You still havent proven me wrong, its opinion not fact.

Oh yeah if Bob really was that scared of Cersei wouldnt he have followed her example an punished Arya when Cersei insisted?

[mrunderhill]

Not descended into trying, but just reffering to what;s already there... Sansa's actions were justified by what GRRM has written.

How is lying at court and betraying your sister justified? Then afterwards it seems Sansa keeps betraying her family, because as Bran says she has lost her wolf. Her actions are not justifiable.

[The Prince of Ice]

Has this thread reall descended into trying to justify Sansa's actions, because the plot needed her wolf to die?

We may never know for sure, but one thing is obvious and not worth arguing over. If Sansa had told the truth then Lady had less chance of being killed and she would not have gone down her path of betraying her family.

Agreed.