Does anyone think The Mad Mouse captures Sansa and takes her to KL?

[brashcandy]

Westeroes is in total chaos at the moment , the north is in open rebellion, the riverlands are in shambles, the Tyrells and Lannisters are at each others throats and Aegon is invading and Dany may be right behind him and as an agent of Littlefinger , Lothor Brune knows more about whats going on then most people. With so much chaos going on Lothor, if he's smart, is going to continue to hitch his ride to to the one person who seems to be able best navigate the chaos. Littlefinger is smart, rich, powerful and completely ruthless and has thrived while "better" men like Jon Arryn , Ned Stark, Tywin Lannister have been destroyed. Sansa has to go a long way to prove to somebody like Lothor Brune that she has what it takes to thrive in the chaos that's coming and that she will be the one who will lead him to a better life than Littlefinger has promised.

I don't see why Lothor Brune should be so impressed with LF's ability to navigate the chaos when he has first hand knowledge that his employer is the one helping to create and extend a lot of that chaos. If Sansa can promise an end to the shenanigans, and enable Lothor to look forward to a peaceful, honorable life with Mya, he could very well be swayed to her side. Or his defection could play out in a completely different manner; my assertion is that the possibility is there, due to some suggestive evidence, which you seem to be set on denying.

Also Littlefinger did not "bribe, blackmail or manipulate" Lothor Brune into his service but instead offered him a chance at a better life and has probably promised him a lordship for his service and Lothor will be able to marry somebody like Mya once he gets that lordship and he will be loyal to Littlefinger as long as he feels that the loyalty is deserved.

Lothor was knighted for his service during the Blackwater battle and was already granted lands. In Sansa's final chapter of ACOK, we read:

Lothor Brune to be raised to the estate of knighthood, and granted land and keep in the riverlands at war’s end.

Furthermore, he doesn't need a lordship to be able to marry Mya. According to Sansa:

Brune would be a good match for a bastard girl like Mya Stone, she thought. It might be different if her father had acknowledged her, but he never did. And Maddy says that she’s no maid either.

[Light a wight tonight]

Why is Cersie a first rank character and Jaimie a second rank character? what is the definition of a first rank character?

The amount of influence they have in the story. Jaime's main action takes place before the books start, killing Aerys. After that he basically almost kills a young boy, gets captured and almost makes it home before getting captured again, losing a hand in the bargain, now he's wandering around and will be captured again, by Lady Stoneheart. His major actions are duelling with Brienne and humping his sister. That's not being a first-tier character.

Meantime, Cersei's Queen Regent, making major policy decisions, hiring and firing Small Council members and King's Guardsmen, commissioning a fleet, plotting to get the other Queen killed, stopping payments to the Iron Bank, and so on. Bad decisions, but that's Cersei. Her actions have huge influence compared to Jaime's.

[Light a wight tonight]

How do you know that Littlefinger does not inspire genuine loyalty? Lothor Brune was treated like crap by his "family" and if it wasn't for Littlefinger he would be a ordinary hedge knight serving some minor lord for pennies but because of Littlefinger he is the right hand man for one of the most powerful men in Westeroes and probably paid pretty well and I'm sure Littlefinger has promised him a Lordship sometime in his future so I think Lothor will be very loyal to Littlefinger and will not betray him for Sansa. I'm always surprised about how everybody always assumes that Littlefinger's men will somehow not be as loyal as men who serve the other lords of Westeroes. People are loyal as long as they feel like their loyalty is in their best interest and Littlefinger, probably better than any other Lord, is conscious of working on keeping that loyalty and not taking for granted. A lesson Robb Stark never learned which caused him to have one of his bannermen shove a sword through his heart.

He sure rewarded Ser Dontos's loyalty, didn't he? And you think Lothor Brune didn't pick up on the implications of that?

[Dragon Roast]

KL is in chaos and as the pages turn, it will only get worse. The mad mouse would need to be insane to think that events in KL have not changed much since his last visit. Even if he could capture Sansa and take the very, very long road trip to KL, I suspect that he would be disappointed.

My guess is that he'll use his knowledge of who Alayne really is as a leverage point to extort something from LF and Sansa. I expect that this will turn out to be a bad career choice. Perhaps the Mad Mouse will be Sansa's first kill (if she doesn't off her cousin with lemon cakes first)...

[The Last Lion]

I don't know why it isn't obvious, the Mad Mouse is going to rescue Sansa and marry her, really it could happen.

Okay, it can't. About as likely as the Mouse undoing Littlefinger's schemes.

[Ser Areo Mace]

He can try, but he'll have to get though Ser Luthor Brune, the Apple Eater himself. Or, he could succeed in getting her out of the Vale, and end up having a random encounter with a Gravedigger.

[Lord Damian]

i think the Mad Mouse may know exactly who Sansa/Allysane is but is smart enough to know that he cannot just say, I am taking her. He knows if he can get her to Cersei that he will be "set for life and beyond" so he is going to play it out. He needs help or atleast, he may be able to notify Kings Landing of who she is with and who she is masquerading as. Littlefinger may be in some deep shit for this and might need to rethink his allegiance. Good thing Aegon is coming to town.

[The Last Lion]

He can try, but he'll have to get though Ser Luthor Brune, the Apple Eater himself. Or, he could succeed in getting her out of the Vale, and end up having a random encounter with a Gravedigger.

Yeah, that last point would suck for Mighty Mouse. Here he is, overcoming all plot development logic and fan expectation to defeat the greatest villain of the series and win the greatest babe in Westeros (post drunk fat Cersei), and he stops at the monks' B&B for some well-deserved 1-on-1 with his new girlfriend . . .

And Blammo, SanSan Strikes!

No justice for characters with fierce mice as their emblems.

[The Duke]

I'm still hoping it's Howland Reed. Meera and Jojen could have got their hair color from their mother.

[Blackfish Tully]

He sure rewarded Ser Dontos's loyalty, didn't he? And you think Lothor Brune didn't pick up on the implications of that?

I doubt Lothor has given Dontos a second thought since he was killed. Dontos was a drunken fool whose big mouth could haven gotten all of them killed. Lothor knows how ruthless Littlefinger is and i'm pretty sure he respects him for that , you cannot win the Game of Thrones unless you are willing to get your hands dirty.

[Blackfish Tully]

The amount of influence they have in the story. Jaime's main action takes place before the books start, killing Aerys. After that he basically almost kills a young boy, gets captured and almost makes it home before getting captured again, losing a hand in the bargain, now he's wandering around and will be captured again, by Lady Stoneheart. His major actions are duelling with Brienne and humping his sister. That's not being a first-tier character.

Meantime, Cersei's Queen Regent, making major policy decisions, hiring and firing Small Council members and King's Guardsmen, commissioning a fleet, plotting to get the other Queen killed, stopping payments to the Iron Bank, and so on. Bad decisions, but that's Cersei. Her actions have huge influence compared to Jaime's.

I am not going to argue with about some arbitrary term you've created but I'm sure there are a lot of Jaimie fans who would disagree with you that he is a second tier character.

[Ludd]

I think perhaps the error Little finger has made is that he assumes that Sansa is friendless.

He is NOT aware of the Sandor connection

He is NOT aware of the Brienne search and the existence of Stoneheart

He is not aware that others search for Sansa

He is not aware than Myranda Royce has guessed who Sansa is.

He is not aware that Bran and Rickon and Arya live

By the by has it occurred to anyone else that one of those "traveling hedge knights" was Varys

[Blackfish Tully]

I don't see why Lothor Brune should be so impressed with LF's ability to navigate the chaos when he has first hand knowledge that his employer is the one helping to create and extend a lot of that chaos. If Sansa can promise an end to the shenanigans, and enable Lothor to look forward to a peaceful, honorable life with Mya, he could very well be swayed to her side. Or his defection could play out in a completely different manner; my assertion is that the possibility is there, due to some suggestive evidence, which you seem to be set on denying.

Im not denying anything , my point is simply that Sansa has a long way to go before she will be able to convince Lothor Brune to take the very dangerous step of betraying Littlefinger and swearing his sword to her. Lothor is the right hand man to one of the most powerful men in all of Westeroes and if he plays his cards right he could become a major lord in his own right so he would need a pretty good reason to forsake all that.

[Petyr Patter]

By the by has it occurred to anyone else that one of those "traveling hedge knights" was Varys

Interesting thoery, but that would mean a) Littlefinger did not recognize a man he served with for over a decade, B) Varys willingly removes himself from where the "action" is, c) he somehow returns to King's Landing to murder Kevan and Pycelle.

So, not likely. Especially when a hired spy might serve just as well.

[Blackfish Tully]

I think perhaps the error Little finger has made is that he assumes that Sansa is friendless.

He is NOT aware of the Sandor connection

He is NOT aware of the Brienne search and the existence of Stoneheart

He is not aware that others search for Sansa

He is not aware than Myranda Royce has guessed who Sansa is.

He is not aware that Bran and Rickon and Arya live

By the by has it occurred to anyone else that one of those "traveling hedge knights" was Varys

He is 100% aware that people are searching for Sansa , he is the one who stole her from Kings Landing and he knows that Sansa and Tyrion are the most wanted people in the Seven Kingdoms and Cersie has offered a huge reward for both of them. I doubt one of the hedge knights are Varys , Aegon has landed in the Seven Kingdoms and I doubt that Varys would spend weeks or months searching for Sansa when he needs to be in Kings Landing helping Aegon win the war.

[Light a wight tonight]

I doubt Lothor has given Dontos a second thought since he was killed. Dontos was a drunken fool whose big mouth could haven gotten all of them killed. Lothor knows how ruthless Littlefinger is and i'm pretty sure he respects him for that , you cannot win the Game of Thrones unless you are willing to get your hands dirty.

LF definitely hasn't given Dontos a thought. That's the point. He uses people until they're used up. Then, "a crossbow bolt buys his silence forever". Brune knows that the instant he's no longer useful LF will discard him, too.

[The Duke]

LF definitely hasn't given Dontos a thought. That's the point. He uses people until they're used up. Then, "a crossbow bolt buys his silence forever". Brune knows that the instant he's no longer useful LF will discard him, too.

To be fair, Lothor Brune is pretty dang useful.

[brashcandy]

To be fair, Lothor Brune is pretty dang useful.

Until he's not - like Dontos, Lysa Arryn, Joffrey? Littlefinger may claim that he's loyal, but he doesn't blindly trust Brune either, and the possibility is certainly there that Brune is quite wary of how LF rewards those faithful to him.

[WildBlood]

Do we even know why Varys wants Sansa? Maybe his plan is to marry her to Aegon all along. He seems content to allow Cersei to continue to muck things up. So all in all I think she could very well end up in KL but not given to Cersei.

[Le Cygne]

If Sansa can promise an end to the shenanigans, and enable Lothor to look forward to a peaceful, honorable life with Mya, he could very well be swayed to her side. Or his defection could play out in a completely different manner; my assertion is that the possibility is there, due to some suggestive evidence, which you seem to be set on denying.

I think you're onto something good, brashcandy. She's thinking about Lothar Brune a little too much for it to have no meaning within the narrative.

Sansa has found the key to Lothar's heart, that's for sure, and it's Mya. Littlefinger doesn't see Lothar as a man, and at the end of the day, that's what he is. If Sansa can appeal to that... And Littlefinger is kissing Sansa, completely unaware that at the same time, she's thinking about kissing the Hound, she knows the key to his heart, too. A couple of big strong warrior guys who could be on her side. Sansa is not without influence, and then there's the seemingly meaningless (not) scene with the three knights Littlefinger hires, including a certain short red-haired one.

And a little tutelage about men from Myranda later (imagine what a little more would do), look at how smooth Sansa is:

Alayne laughed. “Are you louts?” she said, teasing. “Why, I took the three of you for gallant knights.”