Bakker XV: Non-Man of Steel

[Shryke]

The fact that the Heron Spear worked on the No-God and Sorcery didn't would be definitive proof that sorcerous attacks are fundamentally magical in nature in a way that conventional ("conventional" :P) attacks are not.

[Francis Buck]

The fact that the Heron Spear worked on the No-God and Sorcery didn't would be definitive proof that sorcerous attacks are fundamentally magical in nature in a way that conventional ("conventional" :P) attacks are not.

Heh, yeah, conventional isn't really the right word. It's more like, "Weapons that could theoretically exist within our own (real-world) universe", which to a certain extent seems to be what Bakker is basing the foundation of his universe upon. There just happens to be souls, sorcery, etc. intertwined with that universe. So, anything that can work without what Bakker would likely define as sorcerous, could then be considered something non-magical (and thus material...I mean he's already hinting at this concept with the Tekne and such).

[Shryke]

How that matters for sorcerous wards is an open question though. I would suggest that since they work on arrows, there's a good chance they work on an energy weapon.

That said, we do know a few things. The glossary says their weapons of light were incredibly dangerous in their first fights, but that may have just been against the non-sorcerous rabble. We also know the Inchoroi had problems with getting hit by sorcery (hence the chorae) and that after they choraed up they had an advantage till they began to lose their technology.

[karaddin]

We know that wards can be broken down by enough cants (or the psukhe which technically doesn't use cants). Do we know if wards can be broken down by enough physical attacks that are non-sorcerous?

That's more what I'm trying to get at, but doing a bad job of asking it :P Do the wards absorb an infinite amount of non magical attacks, or are they worn down in the same way. If they are worn down in the same way, would they be worn down too fast to replenish by an assault rifle?

[Francis Buck]

I honestly have no clue. I do remember Akka in Cil-Aujas creating wards and having trouble maintaining them. Was it because of the chorae held by the sranc and bashrag? I have no clue. I need to do a serious re-read of the series because it's the only way I can absorb anything. Wikis and forums and such mostly fly over my head, and I happened to consume most of the series two Christmases ago (the first trilogy was a gift), in a sort of drunken blur, so I know I'm missing some important shit. I've tried doing re-reads before, but it never really panned out. At this point I'm basically waiting for a solid release date of TUC, at which time I'll do a legitimate re-read (and then finally read WLW, as well as The False Sun) in just enough time to start TUC as soon as it comes out. Which is the same thing I did with ASOIAF, except that was by accident. This time it'll be on purpose!

[Shryke]

Well, the wards kept the baddies back and Akka and the like seemed to be having no real issues till the chorae came out, so I don't think physical attacks are particularly stressful on wards, if at all. Elsewise we'd see armies trying to overwhelm wards with flights of arrows rather then snipping with chorae bowman.

[karaddin]

That's basically my plan as well, I've got far too many other books on my to be read pile at the moment.

I actually asked the question on Seal Team Bashrag to try and help with locksnow's Pacific Rim Job goals, but now I'm genuinely interested in the answer! We are never shown a schoolman (or Quya) in physical danger from a non-chorae solider/sranc are we? It's hardly definitive, but it suggests a surprise blow won't get through wards before the soldier/sranc gets exploded by sorcery.

ETA: Basically same conclusion as from Shryke above.

[Shryke]

Yeah, it's always been established that without chorae or another sorceror, a schoolman is basically an unstoppable killing machine. A Mandate schoolman is a fucking one-man army. Their biggest threat to them when wiping out a completely conventional army is boredom or getting hungry because it's taking too long and they missed lunch.

[Madness]

Sorweel is encased beneath the Ten-Yoke, safely under wards. Arrows smolder on Achamian's.

I wonder again about Wracu fire...

[Sci-2]

In one of Akka's flashback dreams in TJE, isn't at least one sorcerer's wards broken by the sheer might of a dragon?

I'm not 100% sure about this though. Of course, it does seem overwhelming physical force can kill of a mage given Titirga was buried under stone tonnage.

Otherwise couldn't he ward himself from the stones on top of him and just keep blasting and blasting until he rises past the lip of the pit?

Or was Tirtiga's bigger problem the possibly topos he fell into?

[Shryke]

I'm pretty sure dragon fire is sorcerous.

[generic]

What he didn't count on was Carindusu going ape shit. Kellhus instead thought the Schoolmen would float over the battlefield, looking down in horror until he arrived. [Or if they needed to land, the addition of the Mandate would keep them from losing too many Few.]

Carindusu goes ape shit as a direct reaction to something the Mandate grandmaster says. Who we have been reminded several times sounds much like the Aspect Emperor.

Additionally If the Volakati had been left to flounder mostly the weaker and inexperienced ones would have been lost. In the battle with the Mandate as it unfolded the ones who suffered the most losses were those most loyal to their grandmaster. In a situation where their leader battled one of the most trusted servants of the Aspect Emperor they choose to help their leader. Then they died.

[Francis Buck]

I'm pretty sure dragon fire is sorcerous.

If dragon fire is sorcerous, then that means the Inchoroi somehow stumbled upon sorcery before reaching Earwa, since Wutteat was apparently riding on the Ark before it ever landed on Earwa.

I think there must be a certain limit to the amount of physical force a magical Ward can take. Perhaps it's not so much physical, as it is a battle of wills? No clue. But if magical wards were just inherently impervious to all non-magical (or chorae-negated) attacks, then it would indeed seemingly make them far too powerful. A lot of the historical battles just wouldn't make sense.

[Tears of Lys]

Which we're led to believe is mechanism/tekne/bios or something other than sorcery, right?

Cleric and Akka definitely ward up against Wutteat, but I'm not sure if they just need the initial ward or if they need to keep maintaining.

IIRC, Cleric can maintain his wards against Wutteat, but Akka's are blasted away and he has to resort to scrambling. He, of course, can conjure up more wards, but I think without Cleric there, he would've been Wracu meat.

[Sci-2]

If dragon fire is sorcerous, then that means the Inchoroi somehow stumbled upon sorcery before reaching Earwa, since Wutteat was apparently riding on the Ark before it ever landed on Earwa.

I think there must be a certain limit to the amount of physical force a magical Ward can take. Perhaps it's not so much physical, as it is a battle of wills? No clue. But if magical wards were just inherently impervious to all non-magical (or chorae-negated) attacks, then it would indeed seemingly make them far too powerful. A lot of the historical battles just wouldn't make sense.

But isn't Wutteat the only dragon who actually breathes fire? The rest seem to spew out lava that actually corrodes their teeth and possibly wears away their internal organs.

So it's possible Wutteat's fire is of supernatural origin, but the rest of the dragons are carrying limited supplies of molten steel.

[Maithanet]

If Diablo 2 taught me anything, physical immune monsters are lame. I assume that wards are challenged and can be worn down by physical attacks, it's just that little things like swords and arrows aren't of the magnitude to even be challenging.

In addition, Achamian brought the building down on several Anagogic sorcerers when he escaped captivity. I don't remember the scene super carefully, but weren't they already attacking Akka? If so, it stands to reason that they already would have had wards up, but because they were mere second tier Anagogic sorcerers, they couldn't even survive a building collapsing on them. Nonetheless, a building collapsing is a helluva lot more force and over a wider area than mere shields and arrows.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Akka and Cleric survive behind their Wards when the Library collapses on them. They seem to have little difficulty maintaining them under the rock as they dig themselves out.

On the other hand, dragons definitely can destroy Wards physically...

Somehow forgotten, he jerked his gaze side to side, from the white robes men hanging frail in their glowing spheres to the black-maned beasts that assailed them, burning and rending. Wings bellied like sails in the tempest. Eyes narrowed into sickle-shaped slits. Wounds smoked. The Wracu hammered and clawed the curved planes, and things not of this world sheared. [...] Friends, brothers, shaken apart in grinning jaws.

That's TJE, first part of the quote from p 144, the second part from 145.

[Madness]

This is why I paraphrased Sorweel's experience under Eskeles's Wards.

From opinions here, a gradient defense seems likely. Due to the weight of the Ten-Yoke, I do wonder what physical attack could be brought to bear against Gnostic Wards? Would a direct strike from a Bashrag even do anything?

Also, if I recall correctly, Achamian is borne through a few floors of the Sareotic Library by a Ciphrang and this doesn't break his Wards.

The rest seem to spew out lava that actually corrodes their teeth and possibly wears away their internal organs.

Lol - you finally stumped me, Sci? What? When is this mentioned?

[lokisnow]

in TWP, various flashbacks, Cil Aujus and WLW, Akka has to stop his offensive to sing his wards back up to strength. So wards seem to decay, I would say a big part of what makes wards decay is the mental inattention or mental-rattling of the sorcerer in question. Remember Akka describes incipient wards, those that are always present because it's become sort of a background mental reflex to maintain the thought, like breathing--these are like the light that Mimara holds in her mind.

In a battle the wards might start to break because the sorcerer is mentally breaking. Note that Akka's wards were pretty much invincible when he was fully possessed by Seswatha and escaped the Scarlet Spires, in part because no matter the challenge he had no faltering in his mentality.

[Sci-2]

Lol - you finally stumped me, Sci? What? When is this mentioned?

I know the corroded teeth are mentioned in TJE, I think it's Skafra or another dragon spewing lava at Sauglish.

As for the damage to internal organs, that's more of a guess but I feel like some mention was made of dragons paying a cost for their breath weapon?

Need to TJE again.