Elia of Dorne: Princess, Sister, Wife, and Mother

[Lala]

Why did Elia return to KL?

After the Tourney at Harrenhall. After Rhaegar crowned Lyanna QLAB. After Rhaegar left to catch up with Lyanna.

Elia returned to KL and didn't immediately not beeline to Dorne. Not saying Elia could suspect that her life is in danger but typically when women have a huge row with their husbands they hide out at their parent's house. She would have already been on the road and without her husband. Did Rhaegar return to KL from Harrenhall?

Just to input a quick note: I agree that we can't exactly know how Elia would have reacted to Rhaegar and Lyanna - in fact, we're not even aware of the true nature of R+L. Robert and most of the 7K believe Lyanna was kidnapped, Dany/Barristan/Viserys seem to believe that Lyanna left with him willingly, Ned knows, but never reveals the truth before his death. But it's also important that we remember that we can't interpret the actions and emotions of these characters through a 21st century lens - simply because Elia did not return to Dorne does not mean that she was not upset at what Rhaegar did.

Remember, the return to a maternal household for a bride is often a sign of disgrace at that time (or serious, serious issues) - for Elia to have returned to Dorne following the tournament would have been the same as announcing to the entire 7K that her marriage was a failure. This probably falls under the category of "unacceptable behavior" for a princess and noblewoman.

Would Elia have argued with Rhaegar? I'm more inclined towards "no" as an answer - for Elia to have pulled a Cersei would run contrary to my understanding of her as a character (Remember, Cersei's behavior is very atypical for women in the 7K). But, given the code of behavior of that time, the fact that Elia did not respond in an angry manner to the events of the tournament mean very little - it is much more likely that she would have simply acted as if the hurt was not there.

I do believe, however, that Elia and Rhaegar had an amicable and reasonably happy marriage - Ser Barristan tells Dany that Rhaegar was "fond" of Elia and that the Dornish princess was "clever, with a sweet wit." It is simply the case that Rhaegar was not madly in love with Elia - if Rhaegar had not met Lyanna, it is fairly likely that the marriage would have continued along the lines of a partnership founded on mutual respect and fondness. While running off with Lyanna isn't the behavior of a respectful husband, we also have very little information on what was going through Rhaegar's mind at the time. Remember, Robb, a fairly honorable character, broke his marital contract for the sake of Jeyne - infatuation can lead to irrational behavior which isn't indicative of the character's everyday values.

More importantly, I would argue that Elia forgave R+L, or would have if the Battle of the Trident had ended differently and Rhaegar had returned to the Red Keep with a motherless Jon. Based on what we are told about Elia, she is described as a gentle and kind individual, with an astonishing capacity to love and care for others. It most certainly would have taken time, but I firmly believe that Elia had the capacity to understand R+L's actions and allow her marriage to move past it (although the hurt, like the hurt for Catelyn, would most certainly have still been there - I just do not believe that Elia would have projected the pain onto Jon).

[Kuther2000]

Exactly. Being pissed and making a fuss is not the same thing as starting a war. The consequences for Rhaegar bouncing off Lyanna, the war, was unforeseeable and the result of a many overreactions. "The kidnapping set in motion a chain of events that lead to Robert's Rebellion." It didn't start the war. Marriage problems happen. It gets dealt with politically. Doran would know that and act accordingly. Brandon did not.

You said that Rhaegar pissed off two people when Lyanna and Rhaegar went off. But we know that Dorne was also upset about it, they just hadn't done anything.

I have never said that Rhaegar and Elia had marriage problems. I said that we know that they didn't love each other or at least Rhaegar didn't love Elia. Brandon acted as a hothead who found his little sister may have been abducted by the crown prince of a family that plenty of people know have insanity in it.

As I've said a number of times, the fact that the Dornish were upset tells us nothing about the actual state of Rhaegar & Elia's relationship. Robert and the Starks were also upset about Rhaegar "kidnapping" Lyanna; that doesn't mean it was the truth of things.

I didn't say anything about the state of Elia and Rhaegar's marriage. What was talked about was would Elia just accept and be okay with Rhaegar taking another wife? And people keep using the she's dornish to say yes. When we have been told that dornish people don't do polygamy and not every dornish person is that freeloving.

That story about Lewyn also comes from Jaime, a short way before he says, "Somehow [Aerys] had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side" (refusing to send them to Dragonstone along with the queen and Viserys). Is that a contradiction then? I don't know. Also, Rhaegar wasn't in KL when Lewyn was there; he was in the south. So there's a good chance that he had no idea his father was regarding Elia and her children as hostages.

I said that the Aerys comment happened before the Trident. Lewyn had to be reminded gracelessly that he still held Elia and the children. Aerys is insane because Lewyn died on the Trident too.

This is from the wiki. During Robert's Rebellion, Aerys used Lewyn's niece, princes Elia Martell, as a hostage against him and sent him to command the ten thousand Dornishmen that were to join Prince Rhaegar Targaryen's force that was assembling to take on Robert Baratheon.

It is always possible that Rhaegar didn't know that his father had them hostage, but it is also possible that he did and realized that he couldn't take the chance of losing the Dornish forces.

Wasn't he out actually fighting in the war?

I was making this in reference to Elia and Rhaegar's marriage in general

Why did Elia return to KL?

After the Tourney at Harrenhall. After Rhaegar crowned Lyanna QLAB. After Rhaegar left to catch up with Lyanna.

Elia returned to KL and didn't immediately not beeline to Dorne. Not saying Elia could suspect that her life is in danger but typically when women have a huge row with their husbands they hide out at their parent's house. She would have already been on the road and without her husband. Did Rhaegar return to KL from Harrenhall?

Where else would she go she can't just go somewhere without her husband's permission.

The running away didn't happen until a year after the tourney. Aegon hadn't even been born yet.

Even if Elia and Rhaegar had a fight, this is not a society and time period where a woman can just go home to mommy and daddy.

Catelyn hates the fact that when she came to Winterfell. Ned had Jon. Do you really think she can just go home? No, she is his wife and the mother of his child. She has to suck it up no matter her feelings.

[Onna Lewyys]

I also like to think that she was "part of the plan," but I've got to admit that probably a large part of that is my own personal reaction. As a modern woman, it's hard for me to see even the female characters I don't like (Cersei for example) powerless over their own destinies. Elia's one of my favorite characters and I'd really like to think that she was respected enough to be included in the plan and that her consent at least somewhat mattered to her husband. Realistically though, given her position and the world she lived in, her options were pretty limited and her consent may have only been pragmatic. Though I know its unlikely, I'd really love to know how she really felt.

For me I think it mostly comes from not wanting to dislike anyone. I mean, I concede that Rhaegar & Lyanna were selfish and impulsive, but I don't want them to be total assholes. And I truly believe there's enough evidence for me to latch onto.

As for your question, maybe it'd be helpful to go over the timeline. I admit, I don't remember most of it. Do we know the time frames between Aegon's birth, the tourney at Harrenhal, Lyanna's disappearance, the actual start of Robert's Rebellion, the battle on the Trident, Elia's murder, and Lyanna's death?

[Kuther2000]

For me I think it mostly comes from not wanting to dislike anyone. I mean, I concede that Rhaegar & Lyanna were selfish and impulsive, but I don't want them to be total assholes. And I truly believe there's enough evidence for me to latch onto.

As for your question, maybe it'd be helpful to go over the timeline. I admit, I don't remember most of it. Do we know the time frames between Aegon's birth, the tourney at Harrenhal, Lyanna's disappearance, the actual start of Robert's Rebellion, the battle on the Trident, Elia's murder, and Lyanna's death?

I don't think that they were total assholes. Sometimes you get put in difficult situations and you don't make the best plans.

The tourney of Harrenhall was the year of the false spring in 281.

Aegon was born in 282.

Robert's Rebellion also started in 282 so Aegon couldn't have been more than a few months old.

The Trident happened in 283 but before that there had been some more battles. The first battle is listed at Summerhall and says 282. Ashford is seen as the next was also in 282. Then the Battle of the Bells is said to be in 283.

Elia was murder at the Sack of King's Landing and occurred one year into the rebellion

Lyanna is said to have died a month after the Sack of King's Landing because Eddard had a fight with Robert after the Sack and Ned left. GRRM said the tower of joy thing happened about a month later.

This comes from wiki. But seems to be reliable. Hope it helps.

[Onna Lewyys]

I didn't say anything about the state of Elia and Rhaegar's marriage. What was talked about was would Elia just accept and be okay with Rhaegar taking another wife? And people keep using the she's dornish to say yes. When we have been told that dornish people don't do polygamy and not every dornish person is that freeloving.

But the question of whether or not Elia was okay with Rhaegar taking another wife is about the state of their marriage. And you keep saying that I have to consider that her family was angry. Why do I have to consider that? That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Elia's feelings on the matter. And who is saying that she was okay with it just because she's Dornish? Are those people in this thread? Why are you participating in an argument that no one else here is having?

Also, I'd rather take my information from the books than the wiki. Oh, I mean regarding the Lewyn thing, not the timeline. Thanks for the timeline.

[Lala]

For me I think it mostly comes from not wanting to dislike anyone. I mean, I concede that Rhaegar & Lyanna were selfish and impulsive, but I don't want them to be total assholes. And I truly believe there's enough evidence for me to latch onto.

As for your question, maybe it'd be helpful to go over the timeline. I admit, I don't remember most of it. Do we know the time frames between Aegon's birth, the tourney at Harrenhal, Lyanna's disappearance, the actual start of Robert's Rebellion, the battle on the Trident, Elia's murder, and Lyanna's death?

I'll go through the books and try to put together a time line some time later - unless someone else already has one that they can share? (Save me some work please~)

But remember that people who are infatuated do irrational things. Making one mistake doesn't make them terrible people, it simply makes them human, and humans will sometimes take actions which will hurt others. Personally, I don't have an issue with believing that Rhaegar/Elia had a marriage founded on mutual respect, that R+L were, generally, decent people, and that R+L, in eloping, exhibited a disregard for Elia/Robert/et al.

ETA: I'm starting to think there should be a Boardology law on Elia

Elia's law: any forum discussion on Princess Elia will skip over her brutal death and her relationship with her brothers to affix its attention solely and firmly on whether she knew of/approved of/was complicit in R+L=J

[Kuther2000]

But the question of whether or not Elia was okay with Rhaegar taking another wife is about the state of their marriage. And you keep saying that I have to consider that her family was angry. Why do I have to consider that? That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Elia's feelings on the matter. And who is saying that she was okay with it just because she's Dornish? Are those people in this thread? Why are you participating in an argument that no one else here is having?

Also, I'd rather take my information from the books than the wiki. Oh, I mean regarding the Lewyn thing, not the timeline. Thanks for the timeline.

But the question of whether or not Elia was okay with Rhaegar taking another wife is about the state of their marriage. And you keep saying that I have to consider that her family was angry. Why do I have to consider that? That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Elia's feelings on the matter. And who is saying that she was okay with it just because she's Dornish? Are those people in this thread? Why are you participating in an argument that no one else here is having?

Also, I'd rather take my information from the books than the wiki. Oh, I mean regarding the Lewyn thing, not the timeline. Thanks for the timeline.

I didn't say that. I said that people keep using Elia's culture to say she would be okay. When for a fact, we know that the same culture was angry with how she was treated. So this tells us nothing about how she was.

This is what you wrote on another post in this same exact thread.

To support this theory, I say we look to Elia's family and the culture she came from. The Dornish are incredibly sexually progressive. They embrace non-traditional gender roles (Sand Snakes), bisexuality (Oberyn, most notably), and early sexual experiences (like Arianne's). They're also much more accepting of bastards than the other kingdoms, and they are known to take on many lovers. Oberyn, for example, has eight bastard daughters by five different women.

Go find the Lewyn comment yourself. Because there are plenty of other posts on the forum that would be able to back up the comment. I just went to a quicker source.

[Onna Lewyys]

I didn't say that. I said that people keep using Elia's culture to say she would be okay. When for a fact, we know that the same culture was angry with how she was treated. So this tells us nothing about how she was.

This is what you wrote on another post in this same exact thread.

You mean the point I already conceded that I was wrong about? I admitted it after you corrected me in the next immediate post, and then I conceded it again a couple pages back. I haven't used "because she's Dornish" in like four pages since. But you're saying that it "keeps" happening. It doesn't.

Go find the Lewyn comment yourself. Because there are plenty of other posts on the forum that would be able to back up the comment. I just went to a quicker source.

Um, I already did find it. I said that already too. Yes, Aerys tells Lewyn that he holds Elia and Aegon, but it isn't until after the Trident that he refuses to send them away from KL with his wife and son.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Elia's law: any forum discussion on Princess Elia will skip over her brutal death and her relationship with her brothers to affix its attention solely and firmly on whether she knew of/approved of/was complicit in R+L=J

Ouch! That stung. But duly noted. You are completely right. I have shameface.

[Kuther2000]

You mean the point I already conceded that I was wrong about? I admitted it after you corrected me in the next immediate post, and then I conceded it again a couple pages back. I haven't used "because she's Dornish" in like four pages since. But you're saying that it "keeps" happening. It doesn't.

Um, I already did find it. I said that already too. Yes, Aerys tells Lewyn that he holds Elia and Aegon, but it isn't until after the Trident that he refuses to send them away from KL with his wife and son.

Well it was four pages back. You asked me to find something that used her culture. I found something. You aren't the only person who have made those comments either.

What does that have to do with it? I already knew that. I said that they were hostages before Rhaegar even left for the Trident. I actually conceded the point that he may not have even known that they were being used in that manner.

What the thread was mostly about at first was whether Elia would have tried to be a mom to Jon because some people feel that Catelyn abused Jon? And other things because of her personality reads doormat.

I don't know. We just got on those subjects. Things deviate quickly.

[Onna Lewyys]

ETA: I'm starting to think there should be a Boardology law on Elia

Elia's law: any forum discussion on Princess Elia will skip over her brutal death and her relationship with her brothers to affix its attention solely and firmly on whether she knew of/approved of/was complicit in R+L=J

Well of course, because that's the only thing to argue about! :) But I apologize for bringing it up.

[Lala]

Ouch! That stung. But duly noted. You are completely right. I have shameface.

Well of course, because that's the only thing to argue about! :) But I apologize for bringing it up.

No need to apologize >:o

I didn't mean it as a "shame on you tsk tsk" so much as an amusing observation - the same is true for any character - there is always one theme or point of their character development that is much more controversial than the others and consequently lends itself to discussion (i.e. any Sansa or Sandor discussion will eventually turn into a SanSan debate). And obviously, an analysis of how Elia would have reacted to R+L, if she knew about it, was complicit in it, or was wronged by it is an integral part of understanding Elia as a character.

[Lala]

Well it was four pages back. You asked me to find something that used her culture. I found something. You aren't the only person who have made those comments either.

What does that have to do with it? I already knew that. I said that they were hostages before Rhaegar even left for the Trident. I actually conceded the point that he may not have even known that they were being used in that manner.

What the thread was mostly about at first was whether Elia would have tried to be a mom to Jon because some people feel that Catelyn abused Jon? And other things because of her personality reads doormat.

To clarify: I started the thread because of a discussion on another thread about Elia vs Cat vs Cersei as "adoptive mothers" to Jon because our discussion was hijacking a thread that was initially intended to focus on Rhaegar and Ned. This thread itself is about Elia as a cohesive character (as you'd know if you reread the OP or the thread title =P ) and her roles as a mother/sister/wife/princess.

Also in no way does accepting a motherless child (albeit your husband's lovechild with another woman) equate itself with doormat. A woman with a very strong and even dominant personality could do so simply because she also has a loving heart and the capacity to forgive.

ETA: unless, of course, you also think that Gandhi, Jesus, or anyone who has ever made an honest attempt to love their enemies is also a doormat (not to mention that Jon isn't even an enemy - just an infant whose mother died birthing him)

[Kuther2000]

To clarify: I started the thread because of a discussion on another thread about Elia vs Cat vs Cersei as "adoptive mothers" to Jon because our discussion was hijacking a thread that was initially intended to focus on Rhaegar and Ned. This thread itself is about Elia as a cohesive character (as you'd know if you reread the OP or the thread title =P ) and her roles as a mother/sister/wife/princess.

Also in no way does accepting a motherless child (albeit your husband's lovechild with another woman) equate itself with doormat. A woman with a very strong and even dominant personality could do so simply because she also has a loving heart and the capacity to forgive.

ETA: unless, of course, you also think that Gandhi, Jesus, or anyone who has ever made an honest attempt to love their enemies is also a doormat (not to mention that Jon isn't even an enemy - just an infant whose mother died birthing him)

There are some people who also realize that you can have these amazing qualities and fall short in other areas. This is especially true when you are in a society that doesn't accept these qualities.

People were using the term submissive which is never a good word to use to describe a person. They said that the qualities gentle, kind, and good that she had were obviously submissive.

I would never think that accepting your husband's lovechild makes a person a doormat. It actually takes a very strong secure person to do that. But use of these qualities when comparing her to willful and proud Lyanna and Cersei makes her seem like she is less than them.

Jon could potentially become the enemy one day. It is something that Catelyn also lives over her head with. What if he one day decides that he should be Lord or King? He has enough legitimacy and backing to pull it off and put my children and grandchildren to the sword.

[Lala]

There are some people who also realize that you can have these amazing qualities and fall short in other areas. This is especially true when you are in a society that doesn't accept these qualities.

People were using the term submissive which is never a good word to use to describe a person. They said that the qualities gentle, kind, and good that she had were obviously submissive.

I would never think that accepting your husband's lovechild makes a person a doormat. It actually takes a very strong secure person to do that. But use of these qualities when comparing her to willful and proud Lyanna and Cersei makes her seem like she is less than them.

My point was more in the context that there are also certain personality traits which are more likely to inhibit an individual from doing so - i.e. a strong sense of pride (remember there's a difference between pride and self-respect) or being someone who is naturally more self-centered (not necessarily selfish) - which aren't character traits that I associate with Elia.

Based on Oberyn and Barristan's recollections of Princess Elia, she appears to have been a nurturer, someone who is naturally inclined to care for and "mother" others (again: her interaction with Tyrion). This is my primary argument why I do not think she would have reacted to Jon in a negative manner.

(I had previously argued that Elia was more submissive, but amended my statement prior to this thread - whether she was submissive or not, there are much stronger arguments for her being able to care for Jon which are much more rooted in her personality, or at least the few glimpses we are given)

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Jon could potentially become the enemy one day. It is something that Catelyn also lives over her head with. What if he one day decides that he should be Lord or King? He has enough legitimacy and backing to pull it off and put my children and grandchildren to the sword.

Catelyn's feelings towards Jon was a personality flaw in Catelyn. It wasn't an example of standard behavior. Cersei paranoia is of a personality flaw in Cersei. It wasn't an example of standard behavior. Most normal people don't think about children growing up and killing them in the future. It's irrational.

Maybe once the child is older and you get to know them. Perhaps you see them drowning a puppy. You might think..."wow, this kid might totally kill me". Then you do something about it. Judging someone before they even have a personality is stupid and irrational. It's not strategic planning ahead. Regardless of if you're currently in reign or not. It's just not something people typically think about.

[Minsc]

Catelyn's feelings towards Jon was a personality flaw in Catelyn. It wasn't an example of standard behavior. Cersei paranoia is of a personality flaw in Cersei. It wasn't an example of standard behavior. Most normal people don't think about children growing up and killing them in the future. It's irrational.

Maybe once the child is older and you get to know them. Perhaps you see them drowning a puppy. You might think..."wow, this kid might totally kill me". Then you do something about it. Judging someone before they even have a personality is stupid and irrational. It's not strategic planning ahead. Regardless of if you're currently in reign or not. It's just not something people typically think about.

I don't recall anything about Daemon Blackfyre going around drowning puppies, yet when push came to shove he decided to attempt to usurp his brother's throne. Simply, it is within reason in their society to be wary of your husband's children that aren't your own. In how their history shows that yes they do at times attempt to steal their sibling's inheritance.

Simply, a good number of the bastards that we hear about don't seem to be raised in equal standing of their trueborn siblings.

[Kuther2000]

Catelyn's feelings towards Jon was a personality flaw in Catelyn. It wasn't an example of standard behavior. Cersei paranoia is of a personality flaw in Cersei. It wasn't an example of standard behavior. Most normal people don't think about children growing up and killing them in the future. It's irrational.

I think the flaw comes from the fact that she doesn't know anything. This is compounded by the fact that she has to have this child in her home where bastards are usually sent elsewhere. This is not how it is done in her society. She can't just leave like a modern woman can. She also gives legitimate reasons about why she feels the way she does. Bastards trying to usurp trueborn children. Jon has essentially been given a Lord's education.

I don't think she judged Jon before. She just doesn't like him. There are alot of people who just have an irrational dislike of people that they don't even know. Catelyn doesn't have to do anything with Jon because she isn't his mother. There are nursemaids there for Jon to cling to and also Ned. There are plenty of single good fathers. I could understand if the option for Jon to be fostered elsewhere and she decided to let him stay and treat him like that. But it was not there, neither of them had a choice in the situation.

Catelyn chose the best choice for herself which was to ignore him. I know that some people would say that that is worse, but she wasn't beating Jon. You can't make a person like you would doesn't or who doesn't want to.

It is hard to feel something that you just can't. If she tried to be nice and Jon saw through it, everyone would consider it fake since its not true.

[Lala]

Catelyn's feelings towards Jon was a personality flaw in Catelyn. It wasn't an example of standard behavior. Cersei paranoia is of a personality flaw in Cersei. It wasn't an example of standard behavior. Most normal people don't think about children growing up and killing them in the future. It's irrational.

Maybe once the child is older and you get to know them. Perhaps you see them drowning a puppy. You might think..."wow, this kid might totally kill me". Then you do something about it. Judging someone before they even have a personality is stupid and irrational. It's not strategic planning ahead. Regardless of if you're currently in reign or not. It's just not something people typically think about.

Cersei's behavior isn't standard in any respect, I agree. Cat, however, doesn't behave in a way that isn't in line with how other women might have reacted in her situation - I do agree that it is a character flaw, but it isn't so much that Cat is unique as that she fails to be different - like saying Renly running away from KL after Ned refuses to adopt his plan of action is a character flaw because he fails to act morally, even though most other characters would have done the same thing.

Rather, my argument is that because Elia has already exhibited an ability to be different in this regard (again, Tyrion), she would be able to behave in a way that would be unique to Elia and not representative of most noble women of the time.

I don't recall anything about Daemon Blackfyre going around drowning puppies, yet when push came to shove he decided to attempt to usurp his brother's throne. Simply, it is within reason in their society to be wary of your husband's children that aren't your own. In how their history shows that yes they do at times attempt to steal their sibling's inheritance.

Simply, a good number of the bastards that we hear about don't seem to be raised in equal standing of their trueborn siblings.

This is certainly true! But it's also important to keep in mind that these bastards were raised by other women (i.e. their own birth mothers) or other families. In Jon's case, he would have been raised by Elia or Cat or Cersei (or whoever) from infancy, which means that he would have looked upon them as his mother as opposed to Lyanna (who is deceased). Even in Cat's case, as I previously noted, other characters have erroneously referred to her as Jon's mother, even though Jon himself does not share this view (because she never acts as one towards him):

The Old Bear shrugged. “A boy king... I imagine he’ll listen to his mother. A pity the dwarf isn’t with them. He’s the lad’s uncle, and he saw our need when he visited us. It was a bad thing, your lady mother taking him captive-”

“Lady Stark is not my mother,” Jon reminded him sharply. Tyrion Lannister had been a friend to him. If Lord Eddard was killed, she would be as much to blame as the queen. “My lord, what of my sisters? Arya and Sansa, they were with my father, do you know-”

[Minsc]

This is certainly true! But it's also important to keep in mind that these bastards were raised by other women (i.e. their own birth mothers) or other families. In Jon's case, he would have been raised by Elia or Cat or Cersei (or whoever) from infancy, which means that he would have looked upon them as his mother as opposed to Lyanna (who is deceased). Even in Cat's case, as I previously noted, other characters have erroneously referred to her as Jon's mother, even though Jon himself does not share this view (because she never acts as one towards him):

Quite likely, Jeor thought that Catelyn had accepted some role in how he probably couldn't understand why else she would be okay with Jon staying in Winterfell in how he probly didn't think Ned would keep Jon there if his wife wasn't okay with it. Nor does someone raising you from infancy mean they will be okay with their lack of an inheritance and not want to usurp their siblings' claim.