What's wrong with Sandor Clegane?

[Light a wight tonight]

That's a good point, but to add to that, I think it was about more than money from the start. When he met up with Arya he said "the little sister", that frames it that he saw Arya in terms of Sansa, and he brings up "the little bird, your pretty sister" or some variation of that a dozen times to underscore that. He wanted to align himself with the Starks, and after Robb was dead, the dream was, too, but he still rode into a massacre to save Arya's life, and he had done something similar when he walked into a 30 to 1 mob to save Sansa 's life.

Marillion, etc.

Sandor's meeting Arya pretty much coincides with him being relieved of the prize money from the Tournament of the Hand by the BwB. He's rich and then he isn't. Arya is a means to recoup his losses. The time frame isn't precise but workably close.

[aceluby]

The Hound is a raging alcoholic who hates the only member of his family still left in a world where family is vital to one's existence. It's no wonder no one likes him.

Not just hates. He wants to murder his brother, but let's remember... people hate his brother more and actually identify w/ this hatred.

[DogLover]

Sandor's meeting Arya pretty much coincides with him being relieved of the prize money from the Tournament of the Hand by the BwB. He's rich and then he isn't. Arya is a means to recoup his losses. The time frame isn't precise but workably close.

I think Sandor was more than willing to take a ransom as a consolation prize, but what he really wanted was to go into Robb's service.

[Le Cygne]

Yeah, he digs her. :wub:

We think alike, DogLover. :)

She's also taking care of the horses and helping cook and shit, he really sees that she's not all caught up in being a Lady, no empty pride in Arya at all, she also doesn't have any delusions about knights, princes and people in general. She's the Hound basically but just less overtly angry.

He's not a pedo, but if Arya was 6 or 7 years older, it may have been her he took a fancy to.

Perhaps, but that would be like dating your brother. If Gregor hadn't screwed up his life, and the Lannisters hers, Arya might have had a Hound poster on her wall. Knights (even not a Sers) would have been the equivalent of football players, and Jaime thought him among the best in the land.

But Sandor wants a "proper little lady, not like her bloody sister", and that's Sansa. His secret (that Sansa knows) is that he was dreaming of being the knight who rescues fair maidens when his brother burned his face, playing with the wooden knight. Thus all the Florian and Jonquil references.

Sandor's meeting Arya pretty much coincides with him being relieved of the prize money from the Tournament of the Hand by the BwB. He's rich and then he isn't. Arya is a means to recoup his losses. The time frame isn't precise but workably close.

Of course. But look a little closer, is what I'm saying. There's more to it than that.

I think Sandor was more than willing to take a ransom as a consolation prize, but what he really wanted was to go into Robb's service.

This.

[Fauch]

Sandor is also very important in that he's the first "ugly" person Sansa starts to value. Sandor would probably tell Ser Loras "fuck you and your chivalry" as well, yet he saved his life during the Hand's tourney.

Not just hates. He wants to murder his brother, but let's remember... people hate his brother more and actually identify w/ this hatred.

I doubt that. Kill him in battle? Sure. Murder him, probably not. Sandor isn't that sort of man.

As for Arya he can probably relate to her pretty well. Arya is a killer, because the world made her one.

[DogLover]

We think alike, DogLover. :)

Indeed! :cheers:

Perhaps, but that would be like dating your brother. If Gregor hadn't screwed up his life, and the Lannisters hers, Arya might have had a Hound poster on her wall. Knights (even not a Sers) would have been the equivalent of football players, and Jaime thought him among the best in the land.

But Sandor wants a "proper little lady, not like her bloody sister", and that's Sansa. His secret (that Sansa knows) is that he was dreaming of being the knight who rescues fair maidens when his brother burned his face, playing with the wooden knight. Thus all the Florian and Jonquil references.

And, of course, I agree. Sandor respects and admires Arya's spirit, and she is becoming more like him--channeling her rage into violence--but as his words and actions reveal, Sansa, the proper lady, is the person he wants (in addition to his time in KL, he brings up Sansa multiple times when traveling with Arya even though Arya doesn't have an interest in engaging in conversation) and I don't see how an older Arya would replace that. Sandor isn't Cersei--he doesn't want another version of himself.

I do think Sandor will continue to play a role in both the Stark girls' lives in the upcoming books.

[Kittykatknits]

The Hound is a raging alcoholic who hates the only member of his family still left in a world where family is vital to one's existence. It's no wonder no one likes him.

So you think he is hated for not supporting the other member of his family well enough? Ok.

Sandor's meeting Arya pretty much coincides with him being relieved of the prize money from the Tournament of the Hand by the BwB. He's rich and then he isn't. Arya is a means to recoup his losses. The time frame isn't precise but workably close.

He can have more than one motivation. Seeking a ransom and trying to get a job in service to Robb aren't mutually exclusive.

[Theda Baratheon]

I love Sandor, but let's face it guys, he's a great big strong warrior with half of a burnt face and an angry disposition who often says how he loves to kill. Arya dislikes him because he killed Mycah, which was wrong, but I often think people should level the same sort of disdain towards Cersei for ordering it, and although the death of a child is a terrible thing and his remorse doesn't make up for the act itself, at least he does feel a significant amount of remorse, enough to start him on his redemption arc as soon as that happens. Sansa was frightened of him because he was a scary looking man who said scary things. She did appreciate him though, but I don't think a 12/13 year old girl can be blamed for being frightened of a man who has once threatened to murder her after drunkenly telling her how his face got burnt.

[Lala]

Sandor is also very important in that he's the first "ugly" person Sansa starts to value. Sandor would probably tell Ser Loras "fuck you and your chivalry" as well, yet he saved his life during the Hand's tourney.

I doubt that. Kill him in battle? Sure. Murder him, probably not. Sandor isn't that sort of man.

As for Arya he can probably relate to her pretty well. Arya is a killer, because the world made her one.

This very much so. It's a huge misconception for a reader to assume that Sandor was the type of man who would want to murder his brother in cold blood.

The scene where The Hound saves Ser Loras from being butchered by Gregor really gives valuable insight into the kind of man he is and how he is not like his brother:

It all happened so fast. The Knight of Flowers was shouting for his own sword as Ser Gregor knocked his squire aside and made a grab for the reins of his horse. The mare scented blood and reared. Loras Tyrell kept his seat, but barely. Ser Gregor swung his sword, a savage twohanded blow that took the boy in the chest and knocked him from the saddle. The courser dashed away in panic as Ser Loras lay stunned in the dirt. But as Gregor lifted his sword for the killing blow, a rasping voice warned, “Leave him be, “ and a steel-clad hand wrenched him away from the boy.

The Mountain pivoted in wordless fury, swinging his longsword in a killing arc with all his massive strength behind it, but the Hound caught the blow and turned it, and for what seemed an eternity the two brothers stood hammering at each other as a dazed Loras Tyrell was helped to safety. Thrice Ned saw Ser Gregor aim savage blows at the hound’s-head helmet, yet not once did Sandor send a cut at his brother’s unprotected face.

In my mind, The Hound has more parallels to Jaime wrt their views on knighthood and chivalry - they may not share the same moral code, but they both ask readers and the people around them to question what it truly means to be a knight, or to protect the innocent/be chivalrous. In many ways, The Hound acts more in accordance with the values of knighthood/chivalry than the sworn "Sers" that surround Sansa in KL, yet he himself explicitly rejects that title and the notion of chivalry. In a sense, Sandor shows that morality is something which should stem from the individual him/herself rather than being seen as something that is rooted in oaths or societal standards of chivalry.

[Theda Baratheon]

Loving this Sandor love.

:grouphug:

[indignant mushroom]

As much as I love Sandor I'd have this piss scared out of me if I met him in world. His nickname is "The Hound" and his brother is one of the most vile men in the entire series.

I think a lot of the fear comes from that association, which in turn casts everything he does in a certain light.

Sandor seems to operate by a personal code seen throughout the books, which really knocks all of those assumptions about him out of the water.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Arya leaves Sandor out of her death prayer while he's in a feverish sleep after the fight at the Crossroads inn and then questions herself.

I don't know why anyone bothers to bring this up because the second Arya realizes she left the Hound out of her prayer she puts him right back in and Arya says all the names but never says valar morghulis because her mind wanders and when Arya notices she didn't say "the Hound" she says his name and then valar morghulis then hopes he'd be dead by morning.

"Ser Gregor the Mountain," she said softly. "Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei." It made her feel queer to leave out Polliver and the Tickler. And Joffrey too. She was glad he was dead, but she wished she could have been there to see him die, or maybe kill him herself. Polliver said that Sansa killed him, and the Imp. Could that be true? The Imp was a Lannister, and Sansa ... I wish I could change into a wolf and grow wings and fly away.

If Sansa was gone too, there were no more Starks but her. Jon was on the Wall a thousand leagues away, but he was a Snow, and these different aunts and uncles the Hound wanted to sell her to, they weren't Starks either. They weren't wolves.

Sandor moaned, and she rolled onto her side to look at him. She had left his name out too, she realized. Why had she done that? She tried to think of Mycah, but it was hard to remember what he'd looked like. She hadn't known him long. All he ever did was play at swords with me. "The Hound," she whispered, and, "Valar morghulis." Maybe he'd be dead by morning ...

[DogLover]

Sandor moaned, and she rolled onto her side to look at him. She had left his name out too, she realized. Why had she done that? She tried to think of Mycah, but it was hard to remember what he'd looked like. She hadn't known him long. All he ever did was play at swords with me. "The Hound," she whispered, and, "Valar morghulis." Maybe he'd be dead by morning ...

Yes, but she doesn't just forget and immediately put him back (in all the time she said the death prayer, she never accidentally left someone off). She questions why she left him off and then tries to recall Mycah, which I think emphasizes her complicated feelings toward Sandor and her stubbornness.

ETA: And she has an opportunity to kill him, but can't bring herself to do it.

[Light a wight tonight]

He can have more than one motivation. Seeking a ransom and trying to get a job in service to Robb aren't mutually exclusive.

Fair enough, though my feeling is that "cash is king" was the more immediate concern and employment more a long-term goal.

ETA: I appear to be outvoted on this. I need to do a re-read.

[Squire to Ser Pounce]

Sandor moaned, and she rolled onto her side to look at him. She had left his name out too, she realized. Why had she done that? She tried to think of Mycah, but it was hard to remember what he'd looked like. She hadn't known him long. All he ever did was play at swords with me. "The Hound," she whispered, and, "Valar morghulis." Maybe he'd be dead by morning ...

Well, look - she got her wish. Septon Meribald tells us the Hound is indeed dead. Nice to see that Sandor is still alive, though *grin*

[Lala]

Yes, but she doesn't just forget and immediately put him back (in all the time she said the death prayer, she never accidentally left someone off). She questions why she left him off and then tries to recall Mycah, which I think emphasizes her complicated feelings toward Sandor and her stubbornness.

ETA: And she has an opportunity to kill him, but can't bring herself to do it.

Couldn't have put it better. It's also a turning point for Arya in which she realizes that people are not as black and white as she thought.

ETA: it's interesting that The Hound (a dog) plays a role in the character growth of both of the Stark girls (wolves)

[Kittykatknits]

Fair enough, though my feeling is that "cash is king" was the more immediate concern and employment more a long-term goal.

ETA: I appear to be outvoted on this. I need to do a re-read.

I think you're kinda right actually. The clue is what Thoros says about him after he loses his gold. Sandor is a dog defined by service but now he's alone, without his money. His gold was the only thing he had left and the BWB took it from him. So, he needs something in his life, a purpose or something to work for. Notice his changing language with Arya, he starts with wanting his gold back and then he starts to increasingly talk about service to Robb. Going in to the service for the Starks gives him a chance to serve a more noble cause, gives him a purpose again. His gold helped with that but money itself has never been important to him.

ETA: I'm a pretty big Hound fan (as if my avatar wasn't a clue). I missed almost everything about him on my first read, dismissed him as just a brute. It was a more focused re-read on his character where I realized there was much more to him.

[The Great Walrus]

In regards to the OP, I'd imagine you're supposed to be rather frightened by a known child murderer who freely admits his love of casual slaughter.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Yes, but she doesn't just forget and immediately put him back (in all the time she said the death prayer, she never accidentally left someone off). She questions why she left him off and then tries to recall Mycah, which I think emphasizes her complicated feelings toward Sandor and her stubbornness.

I'm not so sure, that could be one take on it and I can see it, but it's all just speculation. On her never leaving someone off the list before I already addressed that because I speculated that she was not finished with the prayer because her mind wanders. It was the first time she had to leave out anyone, i. e. Joffery, Polliver and the Tickler and she thinks about it, plus she never said valar morghulis.

"Ser Gregor the Mountain," she said softly. "Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei." It made her feel queer to leave out Polliver and the Tickler. And Joffrey too...

On the whole "She questions why she left him off and then tries to recall Mycah, which I think emphasizes her complicated feelings toward Sandor and her stubbornness" I agree she may be having complicated feelings with the Hound but I absolutely would not jump to this meaning what your implying, though I do see it could be. Arya trying to recall Mycah may not mean so much because all she thought was it was hard to remember what he looked like and Arya recalls everything else about him just fine. Here, in her previous prayer, Arya is trying to recall some from her all important prayer that she would not forget.

"Ser Gregor, Dunsen, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling. The Tickler and the Hound. Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, King Joffrey, Queen Cersei." Arya tried to imagine how they would look when they were dead, but it was hard to bring their faces to mind. The Hound she could see, and his brother the Mountain, and she would never forget Joffrey's face, or his mother's ... but Raff and Dunsen and Polliver were all fading, and even the Tickler, whose looks had been so commonplace.

ETA: And she has an opportunity to kill him, but can't bring herself to do it.

This is what Arya tells him right after the prayer in question (and she remembers Mycah just fine)

Do it! The gift of mercy ... avenge your little Michael..."

"Mycah." Arya stepped away from him. "You don't deserve the gift of mercy."

[Light a wight tonight]

Couldn't have put it better. It's also a turning point for Arya in which she realizes that people are not as black and white as she thought.

ETA: it's interesting that The Hound (a dog) plays a role in the character growth of both of the Stark girls (wolves)

I think it's a Good King Bob quote after Lady is killed that Sansa should get a dog.