What's wrong with Sandor Clegane?

[Blackaz01]

I don't think it is just Mycah when it comes to Arya and Sandor. I think she has disdain for the type of person he is, she has always wanted to be big and strong but can't because of her age and size. Sandor has these traits yet he doesn't do shit in her eyes but be joffreys dog, bully people, and of course kill her friend as a result of her playing with him.

She hates him for killing Mycah and hates him for having what she wants the most and doing nothing with it.

[DogLover]

I think it's a Good King Bob quote after Lady is killed that Sansa should get a dog.

And, before getting caught by the Hound, Arya wishes she had a mean dog--a lion-killing dog.

[Le Cygne]

This is what Arya tells him right after the prayer in question (and she remembers Mycah just fine)

Do it! The gift of mercy ... avenge your little Michael..."

"Mycah." Arya stepped away from him. "You don't deserve the gift of mercy."

And then GRRM created subtext. People don't always say what they mean. People don't always mean what they say.

If they are characterized the way Arya and Sandor are, they hardly ever do. The reader has to read between the lines. But the author gives the reader a lot of clues.

There's a dance going on between the two of them.

Look at the choices she made up to that point.

She defended him at the Red Wedding, and even thought, isn't it funny, I wanted him dead and now I'm doing this. That was to set up a more important time, when she defended him at the inn.

There she thinks, "They're killing him", but why not just let them? Why did she throw cups, bottles, and a knife at his attackers?

After he passed out, instead of running away, she cleaned his wounds and stayed with him. Why? She thinks, "I wouldn't have to kill him." Why? He was passed out, yet she passed up the chance to do this thing she thought she wanted to do.

And maybe after hearing "your pretty sister, the little bird" a dozen times it sunk in on some level that he loves her sister as much as she does.

Maybe when he taught her, "that's where the heart is," that has something to do with the choices within the human heart the author keeps talking about.

Maybe he had become Sandor (look at the times she thinks of him as "Sandor", not the Hound). Maybe she was afraid. Maybe she sensed that there was more to that crow by the river (and she did, after all, give him the gift of life, her instincts were good). Maybe she really just didn't want to kill him.

I'm just saying, there's more to the story, and we're meant to wonder about these things.

[Elaena Targaryen]

And then GRRM created subtext. People don't always say what they mean. People don't always mean what they say.

If they are characterized the way Arya and Sandor are, they hardly ever do. The reader has to read between the lines. But the author gives the reader a lot of clues.

There's a dance going on between the two of them.

Look at the choices she made up to that point.

She defended him at the Red Wedding, and even thought, isn't it funny, I wanted him dead and now I'm doing this. That was to set up a more important time, when she defended him at the inn.

There she thinks, "They're killing him", but why not just let them? Why did she throw cups, bottles, and a knife at his attackers?

After he passed out, instead of running away, she cleaned his wounds and stayed with him. Why? She thinks, "I wouldn't have to kill him." Why? He was passed out, yet she passed up the chance to do this thing she thought she wanted to do.

And maybe after hearing "your pretty sister, the little bird" a dozen times it sunk in on some level that he loves her sister as much as she does.

Maybe when he taught her, "that's where the heart is," that has something to do with the choices within the human heart the author keeps talking about.

Maybe he had become Sandor (look at the times she thinks of him as "Sandor", not the Hound). Maybe she was afraid. Maybe she sensed that there was more to that crow by the river (and she did, after all, give him the gift of life, her instincts were good). Maybe she really just didn't want to kill him.

I'm just saying, there's more to the story, and we're meant to wonder about these things.

Wow just a little condescending? Just a little rude? The only comment from me that you quoted was that Arya remembers Mycah and pointing out what she remembers about him. I have already agreed that there is more going on in their [Arya and Sandor's] relationship and it's more complicated than it appears. The chapters where Arya is with Sansor has always been my absolute favorite to read probably because it's one of the very few times I smile and laugh when I read ASoIaF. So an adult discussion about them and their time together is wonderful, can we try that?

[the trees have eyes]

What's wrong with Sandor? Come on. He's up there with Jaime in AGOT (and Theon in ACOK) as a character who does terrible things but people wish to be on the path to redemption. Some of the whitewashing above is pretty uncomfortable reading.

He was Joffrey's dog and he killed Mycah without a second thought, dumped the body in front of Ned and laughed at the expression on his face when Ned realised what he had done. He is brutal, cynical, full of rage and barely suppressed violence.

As for rescuing Arya at The Twins. She is his meal ticket and he "rescues" her to be able to take her to her aunt Lysa at the Eyrie or possibly the blackfish. It's the same reason he kidnapped her from the BWB in the first place: for a ransom not sentiment. He does actually hit her with the flat of his axe and knock her unconscious (way to go there, Sandor, that is some way to "protect" a ten year old girl).

He confesses the story of his scarring to Sansa when drunk then immediately threatens to kill her if she tells anyone. Does he mean it? Probably not. Do you think this is a gentle way to treat a 12 year old girl? I don't. He may protect her to some extent in KL but when he breaks during the battle of the Blackwater he goes to her room and extorts a song from her at knife point.

"He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. "I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil you said". His dagger was out, poised at her throat. "Sing little bird, sing for your little life". Her throat was dry and tight with fear and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. Please don't kill me, she wanted to scream, please don't. She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat..."

The poor girl is bloody terrified of him and with good reason. I would love every Sandor apologist to read that passage again with a clear mind and put yourself in Sansa's position. Romance? Gentle? Sandor basically a good guy? Tosh. There are men who murder women they profess to have feelings for and you very nearly saw that happen in horrific detail. He is an interesting character but don't misunderstand who and what he is: always on the edge of violence and deadly dangerous.

[Lord Reaver]

:agree: That is all.

[Lala]

And then GRRM created subtext. People don't always say what they mean. People don't always mean what they say.

If they are characterized the way Arya and Sandor are, they hardly ever do. The reader has to read between the lines. But the author gives the reader a lot of clues.

There's a dance going on between the two of them.

Look at the choices she made up to that point.

She defended him at the Red Wedding, and even thought, isn't it funny, I wanted him dead and now I'm doing this. That was to set up a more important time, when she defended him at the inn.

There she thinks, "They're killing him", but why not just let them? Why did she throw cups, bottles, and a knife at his attackers?

After he passed out, instead of running away, she cleaned his wounds and stayed with him. Why? She thinks, "I wouldn't have to kill him." Why? He was passed out, yet she passed up the chance to do this thing she thought she wanted to do.

And maybe after hearing "your pretty sister, the little bird" a dozen times it sunk in on some level that he loves her sister as much as she does.

Maybe when he taught her, "that's where the heart is," that has something to do with the choices within the human heart the author keeps talking about.

Maybe he had become Sandor (look at the times she thinks of him as "Sandor", not the Hound). Maybe she was afraid. Maybe she sensed that there was more to that crow by the river (and she did, after all, give him the gift of life, her instincts were good). Maybe she really just didn't want to kill him.

I'm just saying, there's more to the story, and we're meant to wonder about these things.

Agreed. Also for those arguing that Sandor was a brute and a Jaime-pre-Brienne-esque (or Gregor-like) terrible human being with no sense of morality, you are ignoring most of his behavior in the first two books. While he may have been fairly brutal and spoke in a threatening manner, his actual actions are those of a man with a strong sense of innate morality who is simply disillusioned with the superficial "chivalry" of the society around him. He's a broken man, not an evil one.

While Sandor may speak in a threatening manner, it is important to judge him by his actions.

It all happened so fast. The Knight of Flowers was shouting for his own sword as Ser Gregor knocked his squire aside and made a grab for the reins of his horse. The mare scented blood and reared. Loras Tyrell kept his seat, but barely. Ser Gregor swung his sword, a savage twohanded blow that took the boy in the chest and knocked him from the saddle. The courser dashed away in panic as Ser Loras lay stunned in the dirt. But as Gregor lifted his sword for the killing blow, a rasping voice warned, “Leave him be, “ and a steel-clad hand wrenched him away from the boy.

The Mountain pivoted in wordless fury, swinging his longsword in a killing arc with all his massive strength behind it, but the Hound caught the blow and turned it, and for what seemed an eternity the two brothers stood hammering at each other as a dazed Loras Tyrell was helped to safety. Thrice Ned saw Ser Gregor aim savage blows at the hound’s-head helmet, yet not once did Sandor send a cut at his brother’s unprotected face.

Sansa drew her blanket up to her chin to cover herself. “No,” she whimpered, “please... leave me be.”

“If you won’t rise and dress yourself, my Hound will do it for you,” Joffrey said.

“I beg of you, my prince.”

“I’m king now. Dog, get her out of bed.”

Sandor Clegane scooped her up around the waist and lifted her off the featherbed as she struggled feebly. Her blanket fell to the floor. Underneath she had only a thin bedgown to cover her nakedness. “Do as you’re bid, child,” Clegane said. “Dress.” He pushed her toward her wardrobe, almost gently.

Ser Meryn and Ser Arys followed him out, but Sandor Clegane lingered long enough to yank her roughly to her feet. “Save yourself some pain, girl, and give him what he wants.”

Remember that The Hound isn't a gentle man, so this is really him helping Sansa to her feet after Ser Meryn knocks her to the ground at Joffrey's orders.

“I can have Ser Meryn drag you up,” he said. “You won’t like that. You had better do what I say.” Joffrey reached for her, and Sansa cringed away from him, backing into the Hound.

“Do it, girl,” Sandor Clegane told her, pushing her back toward the king. His mouth twitched on the burned side of his face and Sansa could almost hear the rest of it. He’ll have you up there no matter what, so give him what he wants.

When he smiled, she knew he was mocking her. “Your brother is a traitor too, you know.” He turned Septa Mordane’s head back around. “I remember your brother from Winterfell. My dog called him the lord of the wooden sword. Didn’t you, dog?”

“Did I?” the Hound replied. “I don’t recall.”

“Here, girl.” Sandor Clegane knelt before her, between her and Joffrey. With a delicacy surprising in such a big man, he dabbed at the blood welling from her broken lip.

All these examples are from AGoT alone \(=v=)/

[Le Cygne]

<snip>

Great points, Lala. :)

Just to clarify, in my last post I was agreeing with everything Doglover had said, and making a case for why she was right.

[Aleenys]

What's wrong with Sandor? Come on. He's up there with Jaime in AGOT (and Theon in ACOK) as a character who does terrible things but people wish to be on the path to redemption. Some of the whitewashing above is pretty uncomfortable reading.

He was Joffrey's dog and he killed Mycah without a second thought, dumped the body in front of Ned and laughed at the expression on his face when Ned realised what he had done. He is brutal, cynical, full of rage and barely suppressed violence.

As for rescuing Arya at The Twins. She is his meal ticket and he "rescues" her to be able to take her to her aunt Lysa at the Eyrie or possibly the blackfish. It's the same reason he kidnapped her from the BWB in the first place: for a ransom not sentiment. He does actually hit her with the flat of his axe and knock her unconscious (way to go there, Sandor, that is some way to "protect" a ten year old girl).

He confesses the story of his scarring to Sansa when drunk then immediately threatens to kill her if she tells anyone. Does he mean it? Probably not. Do you think this is a gentle way to treat a 12 year old girl? I don't. He may protect her to some extent in KL but when he breaks during the battle of the Blackwater he goes to her room and extorts a song from her at knife point.

"He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. "I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil you said". His dagger was out, poised at her throat. "Sing little bird, sing for your little life". Her throat was dry and tight with fear and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. Please don't kill me, she wanted to scream, please don't. She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat..."

The poor girl is bloody terrified of him and with good reason. I would love every Sandor apologist to read that passage again with a clear mind and put yourself in Sansa's position. Romance? Gentle? Sandor basically a good guy? Tosh. There are men who murder women they profess to have feelings for and you very nearly saw that happen in horrific detail. He is an interesting character but don't misunderstand who and what he is: always on the edge of violence and deadly dangerous.

Thank you for this. Seriously, I could understand people finding their dynamic interesting and worthy of discussion, but the amount of obsessive interest in this pairing from "Sansa fans" is nothing short of mind boggling. As a Sansa fan myself, I can rarely find places to discuss her future and plot without it turning into a SanSan discussion. Not just this forum, it's almost everywhere in "Sansa" fandom. It appears that somehow the most ardent Sansa fans are also SanSan fans, and it's impossible to debate Sansa's plot from an objective standpoint with them. When you call them out on it, they argue it's supported in the text so they're somehow excused in their interest.

GRRM finds Dany & Drogo romantic and the text supports it, yet many sensible people know that it's a great example of Stockholm Syndrome. Now I hate Tyrion and Sansa pairing for many reasons, but Sansa finds Tyrion kind and doesn't specifically hold him responsible for her misery, but you'll see that in most marriage discussions it's Sansa(n) fans who vehemently argue to make Tyrion look as worse as possible (I don't think it's a wrong opinion to have, just pointing out what I've observed). So do you really find the text agreeable in every instance, really? Every instance? Well, there is support in the text that Sandor was abusive to Sansa and the fact that he has conflicting emotions about her doesn't change a damn thing. If you're gonna ship it, at least admit that it's a screwed up pairing and don't defend it.

People love to pull out quotes of Sansa thinking of him positively and argue nothing is wrong with that, yeah of course. I wonder if your best friend was being physically abused by her husband and she didn't complain about that, in fact she told you she loved him, whether you'd support her view or try to get her divorced from the bastard. And if you say Sandor never beat Sansa, well yeah, he only came close to raping and killing her, that's all. But the fact that he cried afterwards negates all of that, I forgot. I care for Sansa as much as anyone could care for a fictional character, so when I see SanSan support over and over again bordering on fanaticism it bothers me. Again, it's the fanaticism that bothers me, not being interested in the relationship. It is extra amusing when I see the same people supporting this pairing are in every thread bashing other potential matches for Sansa.

Anyways, just my view... I usually stay silent in most topics involving this, though I read some of them.. and I'm mostly a lurker than a poster. But I just couldn't stay silent this time. If you point this out as a problem they're probably going to quote the text or GRRM as "support" and laugh at you saying "We're just following the text, it's not about emotion at all!". I'm at a point where in the next book I want Sansa to have a healthy and loving relationship just so this would stop. After the next book, hopefully we'll see more topics about how Sansa might impact the story in aDoS as a major character, about which turns her story might take, what decisions she might do if she becomes a leader at that point. All I see right now are about if she'll get an annulment, what marriage prospects are there (which eventually turn into shipping wars), which man she has feelings for etc. It seems like whoever Sansa is going to end up with has a more interest than her as a person and a major character and it is troubling.

[Lala]

Great points, Lala. :)

Just to clarify, in my last post I was agreeing with everything Doglover had said, and making a case for why she was right.

Thank you \(*3*)/

We must spread the puppy Sandor Love.

Thank you for this. Seriously, I could understand people finding their dynamic interesting and worthy of discussion, but the amount of obsessive interest in this pairing from "Sansa fans" is nothing short of mind boggling. As a Sansa fan myself, I can rarely find places to discuss her future and plot without it turning into a SanSan discussion. Not just this forum, it's almost everywhere in "Sansa" fandom. It appears that somehow the most ardent Sansa fans are also SanSan fans, and it's impossible to debate Sansa's plot from an objective standpoint with them. When you call them out on it, they argue it's supported in the text so they're somehow excused in their interest.

GRRM finds Dany & Drogo romantic and the text supports it, yet many sensible people know that it's a great example of Stockholm Syndrome. Now I hate Tyrion and Sansa pairing for many reasons, but Sansa finds Tyrion kind and doesn't hold specifically hold him responsible for her misery, but you'll see that in most marriage discussions it's Sansa(n) fans who vehemently argue to make Tyrion look as worse as possible (I don't think it's a wrong opinion to have, just pointing out what I've observed). So do you really find the text agreeable in every instance, really? Every instance? Well, there is support in the text that Sandor was abusive to Sansa and the fact that he has conflicting emotions about her doesn't change a damn thing. If you're gonna ship it, at least admit that it's a screwed up pairing and don't defend it.

~snip~

I agree that it's a complex relationship - which is why SanSan is such a fascinating aspect of Sansa and Sandor's character arcs. However, to compare Sandor to an abusive husband is to put him on the level of Joffrey or the other KG who beat Sansa - that's a fairly big leap to make. More importantly, remember that Sandor is a broken man. This doesn't excuse his use of verbal violence towards Sansa on occasion, but it also provides more context - he is accustomed to being feared and this way of speaking (and telling Arya he should have raped her sister when he clearly showed no inclination to do anything of that sort in any of Sansa's POVs) is Sandor running around shouting a big "Fuck You" to what he sees as the hypocritical chivalry and conception of knighthood in the 7K.

More importantly, your classification of Drogo/Dany as Stockholm Syndrome is quite off the mark. Dany does begin the marriage by being afraid of him, but this fear is more rooted in his martial prowess, his foreign language, and a lack of understanding of his culture (and vice versa) - not to mention Dany's natural timidity at the start of the series. Nowhere does Drogo ever act like a captor or aggressor towards Dany - rather, their interactions show a gradual growth in Dany's agency and Drogo's support for her decisions and authority as a khaleesi even when they run counter to traditional Dothraki culture (i.e. Drogo agreeing that Dany has the right to stop the rape and claim all the "sheep people" as slaves even though in doing so, he is essentially violating what is viewed as the right of his khalasar). The reason Dany loves Drogo has nothing to do with Stockholm Syndrome and everything to do with how he treats her as a human being with values and agency of her own.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Funnily enough, Arya never referred to him as her friend. Just the "Butcher's boy."

Better yet in AFFC/ADWD she even states she doesn't even know/forgot why she's sad the Mycah died. It's because she has grown up.

she most definitely referred to him as her friend. She yells it at Sansa

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

He killed Mycha!

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Thank you for this. Seriously, I could understand people finding their dynamic interesting and worthy of discussion, but the amount of obsessive interest in this pairing from "Sansa fans" is nothing short of mind boggling. As a Sansa fan myself, I can rarely find places to discuss her future and plot without it turning into a SanSan discussion. Not just this forum, it's almost everywhere in "Sansa" fandom. It appears that somehow the most ardent Sansa fans are also SanSan fans, and it's impossible to debate Sansa's plot from an objective standpoint with them. When you call them out on it, they argue it's supported in the text so they're somehow excused in their interest.

GRRM finds Dany & Drogo romantic and the text supports it, yet many sensible people know that it's a great example of Stockholm Syndrome. Now I hate Tyrion and Sansa pairing for many reasons, but Sansa finds Tyrion kind and doesn't hold specifically hold him responsible for her misery, but you'll see that in most marriage discussions it's Sansa(n) fans who vehemently argue to make Tyrion look as worse as possible (I don't think it's a wrong opinion to have, just pointing out what I've observed). So do you really find the text agreeable in every instance, really? Every instance? Well, there is support in the text that Sandor was abusive to Sansa and the fact that he has conflicting emotions about her doesn't change a damn thing. If you're gonna ship it, at least admit that it's a screwed up pairing and don't defend it.

People love to pull out quotes of Sansa thinking of him positively and argue nothing is wrong with that, yeah of course. I wonder if your best friend was being physically abused by her husband and she didn't complain about that, in fact she told you she loved him, whether you'd support her view or try to get her divorced from the bastard. And if you say Sandor never beat Sansa, well yeah, he only came close to raping and killing her, that's all. But the fact that he cried afterwards negates all of that, I forgot. I care for Sansa as much as anyone could care for a fictional character, so when I see SanSan support over and over again bordering on fanaticism it bothers me. Again, it's the fanaticism that bothers me, not being interested in the relationship. It is extra amusing when I see the same people supporting this pairing are in every thread bashing other potential matches for Sansa.

Anyways, just my view... I usually stay silent in most topics involving this, though I read some of them.. and I'm mostly a lurker than a poster. But I just couldn't stay silent this time. If you point this out as a problem they're probably going to quote the text or GRRM as "support" and laugh at you saying "We're just following the text, it's not about emotion at all!". I'm at a point where in the next book I want Sansa to have a healthy and loving relationship just so this would stop. After the next book, hopefully we'll see more topics about how Sansa might impact the story in aDoS as a major character, about which turns her story might take, what decisions she might do if she becomes a leader at that point. All I see right now are about if she'll get an annulment, what marriage prospects are there (which eventually turn into shipping wars), which man she has feelings for etc. It seems like whoever Sansa is going to end up with has a more interest than her as a person and a major character and it is troubling.

Thank you for saying this, Aleenys. I always hope that differing viewpoints can be welcomed or at least tolerated. Even though I subscribe to the theory that San and San are very important to each other and have a sort of "relationship" going on, I still sometimes feel a bit hit over the head with it. Not everybody has to have the same theories and really it's no skin off my nose if someone thinks about a book a bit differently than I do.

[Aleenys]

I agree that it's a complex relationship - which is why SanSan is such a fascinating aspect of Sansa and Sandor's character arcs. However, to compare Sandor to an abusive husband is to put him on the level of Joffrey or the other KG who beat Sansa - that's a fairly big leap to make. More importantly, remember that Sandor is a broken man. This doesn't excuse his use of verbal violence towards Sansa on occasion, but it also provides more context - he is accustomed to being feared and this way of speaking (and telling Arya he should have raped her sister when he clearly showed no inclination to do anything of that sort in any of Sansa's POVs) is Sandor running around shouting a big "Fuck You" to what he sees as the hypocritical chivalry and conception of knighthood in the 7K.

I put him on a worse position to be honest, at least in the case of the Blackwater scene. If my friend came up to me and said her husband threatened her with a knife and she wasn't upset about that at all, I would be more outraged than if he'd been beating her. And if you're not excusing it I don't know what his background has to do with his aggressive and abusive behaviour. Sandor is one of my favourite characters, as I said it's the obsessive fanaticism about the pairing that bothers me. His background doesn't change the fact that he was horrible to Sansa. I bet that that people who want them together don't want that to change at all, they want "his rage to be gentled" but if he came back as a Ned Stark 2.0 people would be dissapointed in him and want the old hound back. The fact is, Sandor being a rude jackass to everyone except Sansa (oh don't tell me that's not one of their wish...) seems like a fantasy wish to me. If you love both characters you wouldn't want this for the both of them. You want Sandor to continue to become a killer, "Sansa's direwolf protector" as they say, because somehow this makes sense to you. But killing in the name of good is still killing, and Sandor's character development so far shows that he's giving up on living a killer's life. Being Sansa's noble protector has little difference, and it's best that he lives his life peacefully, because most scenarios that the fans of this pairing has sound ridiculously wish fulfillment-y to me.

About his confession, that's one of those quotes that gets whitewashed to hell and back. I don't believe for a second he was lying and there are many reasons for that. You might believe otherwise if you want, but here are my reasons.

1- He was dying, and confessing all the horrible things he has done or wanted to have done. Why would he lie here? To Arya, of all people, whom he knows that has little affection for Sansa (he thinks at least) based on the expression of her face when he asked her if she would like to kill her sister.

2- The fact that Sansa was too young to sense a threat of rape doesn't mean that a threat of rape wasn't implied. What do you think he shoved her onto the bed for, to help her sleep? He at least considered it, and there's textual evidence for that. If she hadn't sung, he might have gone through with it.

3- Sansa romanticizes the encounter because that's what Sansa is. She can't bear the thought of her only protector, rough as he is, coming close to harming her so she starts to progressively think of him in a better light, because she hasn't seen any genuine kindness from others for a long time. This is not a relationship to be seen as romantic just because Sansa romanticizes it. It is probably also because Sansa's sexual development is needed and it wouldn't make sense for it to pop out of nowhere in the next books, if it looks like she's not interested in romance or sex. Understandably, Sandor is the only person Sansa can think of in this light because she started out the series as a child (11-year old) and her prince turned out to be a monster, and all of the people she could be attracted to (handsome, tall, gallant, honorable, chivalrous etc.) either turned out to be monsters, not interested in her, or she just didn't come upon that kind of person yet unfortunately. In her mind, again understandably, Sandor is the only person she could think of when it's shown that she's developing sexually. Doesn't make it a relationship to be true love or get fanatical about however.

More importantly, your classification of Drogo/Dany as Stockholm Syndrome is quite off the mark. Dany does begin the marriage by being afraid of him, but this fear is more rooted in his martial prowess, his foreign language, and a lack of understanding of his culture (and vice versa) - not to mention Dany's natural timidity at the start of the series. Nowhere does Drogo ever act like a captor or aggressor towards Dany - rather, their interactions show a gradual growth in Dany's agency and Drogo's support for her decisions and authority as a khaleesi even when they run counter to traditional Dothraki culture (i.e. Drogo agreeing that Dany has the right to stop the rape and claim all the "sheep people" as slaves even though in doing so, he is essentially violating what is viewed as the right of his khalasar). The reason Dany loves Drogo has nothing to do with Stockholm Syndrome and everything to do with how he treats her as a human being with values and agency of her own.

That may be your opinion, but the fact is Daenerys was sold off to Drogo and on their wedding night, she was helpless to say no. She couldn't run anywhere if she wanted to. She started to develop feelings for this man who raped her and wouldn't release her or offer any way out. Again you may argue that is their culture etc. but it doesn't change the fact that Drogo behaved this way and sexually abused a girl who came to him as a gift for his promise of winning someone's crown.

Anyway, I hope you'll excuse me if I don't reply to you or any others after this post. This is more a statement about the general attitude on this forum I wanted to express my opinion about. I believe it is more arguing about people than their points so it is both off-topic and could lead to bans or warnings I think. I try to be kind about it, but wherever I go discussions of Sansa are centered more about her pairings than her whole story, both in this forum and most other places. Where her life of masking her feelings in the court, interacting with people who are politically astute may lead her story to as a major character are rarely if ever discussed. Sorry if I caused any offense in my statements.

Edit: Thanks The Ned's Little Girl. I really didn't think my opinion would be welcomed by any fans of this relationship. Either way, that's all I'll say on this topic and with this little edit I'm out. :)

[Minsc]

I bet that that people who want them together don't want that to change at all, they want "his rage to be gentled" but if he came back as a Ned Stark 2.0 people would be dissapointed in him and want the old hound back. The fact is, Sandor being a rude jackass to everyone except Sansa (oh don't tell me that's not one of their wish...) seems like a fantasy wish to me. If you love both characters you wouldn't want this for the both of them. You want Sandor to continue to become a killer, "Sansa's direwolf protector" as they say, because somehow this makes sense to you. But killing in the name of good is still killing, and Sandor's character development so far shows that he's giving up on living a killer's life. Being Sansa's noble protector has little difference, and it's best that he lives his life peacefully, because most scenarios that the fans of this pairing has sound ridiculously wish fulfillment-y to me.

I don't think most people wanting him to be the exactly the same, instead they do want like "his rage to be gentled" along with him to fix a whole number of his more unsavory personality problems(like being a drunk for example). Wanting him to be a protecting figure doesn't mean he has to stay a killer instead he can be like someone like Barristan who watches over people yet is not unseemly cruel.

[Lala]

I put him on a worse position to be honest, at least in the case of the Blackwater scene. If my friend came up to me and said her husband threatened her with a knife and she wasn't upset about that at all, I would be more outraged than if he'd been beating her. And if you're not excusing it I don't know what his background has to do with his aggressive and abusive behaviour. Sandor is one of my favourite characters, as I said it's the obsessive fanaticism about the pairing that bothers me. His background doesn't change the fact that he was horrible to Sansa. I bet that that people who want them together don't want that to change at all, they want "his rage to be gentled" but if he came back as a Ned Stark 2.0 people would be dissapointed in him and want the old hound back. The fact is, Sandor being a rude jackass to everyone except Sansa (oh don't tell me that's not one of their wish...) seems like a fantasy wish to me. If you love both characters you wouldn't want this for the both of them. You want Sandor to continue to become a killer, "Sansa's direwolf protector" as they say, because somehow this makes sense to you. But killing in the name of good is still killing, and Sandor's character development so far shows that he's giving up on living a killer's life. Being Sansa's noble protector has little difference, and it's best that he lives his life peacefully, because most scenarios that the fans of this pairing has sound ridiculously wish fulfillment-y to me.

About his confession, that's one of those quotes that gets whitewashed to hell and back. I don't believe for a second he was lying and there are many reasons for that. You might believe otherwise if you want, but here are my reasons.

1- He was dying, and confessing all the horrible things he has done or wanted to have done. Why would he lie here? To Arya, of all people, whom he knows that has little affection for Sansa (he thinks at least) based on the expression of her face when he asked her if she would like to kill her sister.

2- The fact that Sansa was too young to sense a threat of rape doesn't mean that a threat of rape wasn't implied. What do you think he shoved her onto the bed for, to help her sleep? He at least considered it, and there's textual evidence for that. If she hadn't sung, he might have gone through with it.

3- Sansa romanticizes the encounter because that's what Sansa is. She can't bear the thought of her only protector, rough as he is, coming close to harming her so she starts to progressively think of him in a better light, because she hasn't seen any genuine kindness from others for a long time. This is not a relationship to be seen as romantic just because Sansa romanticizes it. It is probably also because Sansa's sexual development is needed and it wouldn't make sense for it to pop out of nowhere in the next books, if it looks like she's not interested in romance or sex. Understandably, Sandor is the only person Sansa can think of in this light because she started out the series as a child (11-year old) and her prince turned out to be a monster, and all of the people she could be attracted to (handsome, tall, gallant, honorable, chivalrous etc.) either turned out to be monsters, not interested in her, or she just didn't come upon that kind of person yet unfortunately. In her mind, again understandably, Sandor is the only person she could think of when it's shown that she's developing sexually. Doesn't make it a relationship to be true love or get fanatical about however.

Rather than excusing Sandor's behavior, I am merely pointing out that he isn't actually dangerous to Sansa - to view him as a threatening figure in her character arc is to fail to understand who Sandor is as a character and to ignore Sansa's own expressed emotions about his actions. She is understandably frightened by his threats and the knife incident, but it's also important to remember that, more generally, Sansa does not see Sandor as a threatening figure. This is only a comment on the relationship between the two characters - neither Sansa nor Sandor see their relationship as an aggressor-victim one.

My main point is that it is a misinterpretation of his character to see him as this hulking, threatening beast, even if you're arguing that for that classification of his character at the beginning of the series. GRRM provides ample evidence that Sandor is NOT Gregor and clearly delineates the difference in the scene at the Hand's Tourney.

That may be your opinion, but the fact is Daenerys was sold off to Drogo and on their wedding night, she was helpless to say no. She couldn't run anywhere if she wanted to. She started to develop feelings for this man who raped her and wouldn't release her or offer any way out. Again you may argue that is their culture etc. but it doesn't change the fact that Drogo behaved this way and sexually abused a girl who came to him as a gift for his promise of winning someone's crown.

Anyway, I hope you'll excuse me if I don't reply to you or any others after this post. This is more a statement about the general attitude on this forum I wanted to express my opinion about. I believe it is more arguing about people than their points so it is both off-topic and could lead to bans or warnings I think. I try to be kind about it, but wherever I go discussions of Sansa are centered more about her pairings than her whole story, both in this forum and most other places. Where her life of masking her feelings in the court, interacting with people who are politically astute may lead her story to as a major character are rarely if ever discussed. Sorry if I caused any offense in my statements.

He stopped then, and drew her down onto his lap. Dany was flushed and breathless, her heart fluttering in her chest. He cupped her face in his huge hands and looked into his eyes. “No?” he said, and she knew it was a question.

She took his hand and moved it down to the wetness between her thighs. “Yes,” she whispered as she put his finger inside her.

This isn't rape - it's consensual sex. Even in their subsequent intercourse, nowhere in Dany's POV does she say that she tried to stop him or refuse the sex - she only states that it was initially painful and not enjoyable - it isn't exactly rape if she willingly engages in the sex, even if she doesn't enjoy it, it is more a representation of the tragedy of women in Westeros/Essos - that they see sex as something they have no power over. Of course, Dany most likely does not think that she has the power or right to refuse, but based off of the wedding night, Drogo clearly indicates that he is at least interested in what she has to say. This doesn't mean that Dany's position is representative of female agency and self-determination - but it is important to keep in mind that her situation isn't significantly different from that of any other married noblewoman.

More importantly, to only see this one aspect (which is only true for the beginning of the marriage) is to ignore the majority of Dany and Drogo's relationship, in which he clearly demonstrates that he respects and cares for her, as well as to misinterpret much of Dany's growth as a character and an individual with agency. Rather than loving Drogo because she has no other choice and sees him as a powerful jailer, Dany grows to love him because Drogo and his khalasar allow her to learn to forget her fear and embrace her own strength. This is the symbolic power of the dream Dany has about the dragon :

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night...

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her, She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

It is after this dream that Dany initiates her intercourse with Drogo for the first time, reversing their roles so that she "rides" him. That Drogo accepts this reversal (in public view of his khalasar) shows that he was not intentionally enforcing a submissive position to Dany - remember that sexual positions mean more to the Dothraki than they do to us today - for Drogo to be "ridden" by his wife would mean that he was symbolically allowing her an equal position in their sexual relationship.

If we view this act as Dany's acceptance of Drogo and her marriage to him, then the trigger for this acceptance isn't his acts of "rape" or his position as her lord/master, but Dany's own realization of her inner strength and her decision to embrace her own power over her destiny. < Why I am vehemently opposed to simplifying their relationship and Dany's acceptance of it as "Stockholm Syndrome"

[djc27]

He did kill her friend Mycah. And the huge, angry warrior with half his face burned off who's always roaring drunk is generally pretty scary anyway.

this

[Le Cygne]

Rather than excusing Sandor's behavior, I am merely pointing out that he isn't actually dangerous to Sansa - to view him as a threatening figure in her character arc is to fail to understand who Sandor is as a character and to ignore Sansa's own expressed emotions about his actions.

Again agree with all of your points, well said. The sentence above sums it up nicely.

Sansa has been written as a romantic. She loves songs and stories about romance, she dreams of marrying and having children, she thinks about kissing and later, sex.

Moreover, these thoughts appear to be her way of expressing agency. She's being paired up with men, over and over again, and is increasingly resisting these pairings in her thoughts, while reflecting on what she wants.

Sandor tells her to speak up, and she does, with him. And often it's not what he wants to hear, but it's what he needs to hear. And she's the one telling him. And he listens to her. Nobody listens to Sansa, but he does.

And then the night when Sandor has his traumatic break because of the fire, he has to leave, but he stops to "keep her safe" one more time. One of the threads, someone said he's like a dog and she's his mistress, I thought that was funny but also true. She realizes that she has this power over him about halfway through.

He cries, and she cups his cheek. She puts on his cloak, even though it's bloody and messy, and there are nice blankets on the bed, and her own cloak in the wardrobe. And how many times the author wrote this man's cloak into the story, remarkable skill weaving that seamlessly into the story, so we can't ignore that, either.

And she looks back on that night. She tells us she wishes he was there. She lays awake at night thinking she should have gone with him. She keeps his cloak with her summer silks. She understands what was going on with him. This is her story and this is how she sees him. So again, what is this telling us, the close reader wonders.

I think there are two reasons he comes up a lot, because she brings him up a lot, and it's a good story.

Also back to what you said, I agree about Dany/Drogo, and thought this quote was pretty interesting. It's about how she felt on her wedding night, and she says she was afraid but also excited:

She remembered the night of her first wedding, when Khal Drogo had claimed her maidenhead beneath the stranger stars. She remembered how frightened she had been, and how excited. Would it be the same with Hizdahr? No. I am not the girl I was, and he is not my sun-and-stars.

I like their story, too, and also the other romances are good, too. I waited through an entire Dany and Drogo thread once, and all anyone talked about was her age. We never did get to talk about the story!

[the trees have eyes]

Again agree with all of your points, well said. The sentence above sums it up nicely.

Sansa has been written as a romantic. She loves songs and stories about romance, she dreams of marrying and having children, she thinks about kissing and later, sex.

Moreover, these thoughts appear to be her way of expressing agency. She's being paired up with men, over and over again, and is increasingly resisting these pairings in her thoughts, while reflecting on what she wants.

Sandor tells her to speak up, and she does, with him. And often it's not what he wants to hear, but it's what he needs to hear. And she's the one telling him. And he listens to her. Nobody listens to Sansa, but he does.

Thoughts of "The Hound" run throughout her story, and they're mostly positive. I knew the Hound would win... she remembered what the Hound said... the Hound's face is hard to read... the Hound was right... it was the Hound's voice she heard... the Hound was oddly gentle... she wished this man had some of the Hound's ferocity... the Hound saved me... Mother, save the Hound... I would be gladder if it was the Hound... I wish the Hound was here... the Hound had told her this... Is that the Hound's voice?... he stands as tall as the Hound... I kissed the Hound... the Hound kissed me... the Hound had come to her... the Hound took a song.. the Hound left me his cloak... lots more... She goes on like this for four books.

And then the night when Sandor has his traumatic break because of the fire, he has to leave, but he stops to "keep her safe" one more time. One of the threads, someone said he's like a dog and she's his mistress, I thought that was funny but also true. She realizes that she has this power over him about halfway through.

He cries, and she cups his cheek. She puts on his cloak, even though it's bloody and messy, and there are nice blankets on the bed, and her own cloak in the wardrobe. And how many times the author wrote this man's cloak into the story, remarkable skill weaving that seamlessly into the story, so we can't ignore that, either.

And she looks back on that night. She tells us she wishes he was there. She lays awake at night thinking she should have gone with him. She keeps his cloak with her summer silks. She understands what was going on with him. This is her story and this is how she sees him. So again, what is this telling us, the close reader wonders.

I think there are two reasons he comes up a lot, because she brings him up a lot, and it's a good story.

Also back to what you said, I agree about Dany/Drogo, and thought this quote was pretty interesting. It's about how she felt on her wedding night, and she says she was afraid but also excited:

I like their story, too, and also the other romances are good, too. I waited through an entire Dany and Drogo thread once, and all anyone talked about was her age. We never did get to talk about the story!

Sandor may care about Sansa but there is too much glossing over the brutal side of his character and no real assessment of the quality of his affection. I quoted part of the scene in ACOK where he terrifies her at knife point but I don't see any hint of that in your run through of the scene above. Stressing Sandor's gentle side and his protectiveness towards Sansa as if that is all there is is like lauding Jaime's honour and service in the King's Guard - there is a bloody big elephant in the corner you are ignoring.

Maybe he is a saint now he has had time to dwell on his past errors on the Quiet Isle but we will see. I doubt it myself. It would take a powerful and fascinating character and in a Dickensian style ending turn him into someone entirely untrue to his character throughout the story.

As for the quality of his affection does the knife at her throat, the threat to kill her should she divulge his secrets and the constant see-saw between snarling at her and then protecting her not show how dangerous his regard for her is? Like being a gangster's moll once his eye settles on her she is never safe: he will protect her and cherish her when he wants and mistreat her and frighten her when his black rages or his drunken snarls are upon him. What has the poor girl done to deserve this?

The Hound is not some Disney Beauty and The Beast caricature with a scarred face but a noble character and a heart of gold. He is a savage beast who cut Mycah in half and laughed in Ned's face when he flung his corpse at his feet. His repressed lust for Sansa is a danger to her not a shield. He may have been the only thing protecting her in KL (Tyrell manipulation, Dontos' false rescue, Tyrion's "cloak of protection") but that just shows how bad a place she was in, not how good a champion he is. In the Vale she has no one and thinks of him but what does this mean? That a protector who, however flawed, at least cared nothing for her claim to Winterfell or in using her as a pawn in power politics is better than LF / Lysa's plans? Sure. That he is her true shield and the only one she can rely on? Gah, no. :ack: Desperate is as desperate does.

Also, he does not have it in him to be as gentle as Drogo proved to be with Dany: he is not that sort of character and bottom line is their interaction has been fascinating but he is bad news for her. Protection at that price is a poor bargain.

As for the SanSan stuff I understand why people point out the parts in Sansa's pov where she longs for safety and protection and thinks of Sandor but she is engaging in wishful thinking here as much as they, forgetting the bad and dangerous side of his character because there is no glimmer of hope if the truth is looked full in the face.

SanSan reminds me of Love in The Time of Cholera (Gabriel Garcia Marquez) where two characters build an intense attraction to each other after fleeting glimpses. After a time apart this builds in their minds into something that dominates their lives, and a belief that they are in love. When they next meet the "heroine" takes a good look at the "hero", realises that it was all her imagination, a castle she imagined in the clouds, rather than something she really felt and walks away. That's my take on Sansa and The Hound. If she ever thinks clearly from a place of safety she may feel pity, some empathy and good-natured hopes for his happiness but she will be glad she dodged a bullet.

[Tharvot]

Its pretty obvious whats wrong with Sandor: he is a savage brute...or was for much of the book series thus far.

We saw glimpses of kindness and morality. We saw plenty of other instances where he acted on his own best interests with little regard for anyone else.

I think the reason you see so many SanSan fans out there is because Sandor seemingly acted quite different around Sansa. He divulged things to her that he hadn't to anyone else, he saved or protected her on more than one occasion, and was often "surprisingly" gentle around her. Whether the root causes of these actions were platonic or romantic in nature remains to be seen.

Additionally, Sandor resembles everything Sansa disliked when we are first introduced to her. She desired beauty, pomp, nobility...fairy tales, as would most pre-pubescent girls I'd imagine. Sandor was the exact opposite of that. He was rough, ugly, frank in his words, and violent. As Sansa matures through the series we see she is less and less intrigued with material beauty...that has burned her before. Instead, she has become more fixated on safety and honesty. She has met about 2 people in her entire story arc that she can truly trust: Tyrion and Sandor, so there is some natural shipping going on there.

I think its generally accepted that Sandor is The Gravedigger at the Quiet Isle and is likely still there now in the story's progression. I would like to see him reunite with Sansa at some point in the future because I think they have a dynamic relationship. I'm not shipping them, but I do think those 2 characters work well together...besides she could use someone to hack away at enemies for her.