Cersei in AFFC

[mrunderhill]

Let's change the equation. A guy is a murderer, a rapist and whatever horrible thing you can come up with. You know that but he is never caught and got away with his crimes. One day he steals a bread and his hand is chopped off. Even if you personally feel that he deserved it for all his crimes the punishment itself that has been applied to him is wrong because it violates Human Rights and is cruel. Even if he was punished that way for his actual crimes it would be wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. The same goes for the Walk.

I also enjoyed Cersei being taken down in AFFC and I still don't feel pity for her. We are in the realm of fiction and I don't think there's anything questionable about wanting the worse for a character. But objectively speaking no one deserves a sexual humiliating treating because is dehumanizing.

And the Walk is misogynistic. It was a punishment specially designed to degrade women. The HS wouldn't put a male person in the same position even though he could come up with something worse for said person in terms of pain and humiliation.

That's the thing. Through out the middle ages, where such punishments were handed (which was very few), men had to do the same. What wouldn't happen is a noble man or woman being punished, because they had a lot of power.

I have also provided a lot of quotes to show that men are often stripped naked and shamed too for crimes such as wine merchant, Osney, Karstark men and Amory Lorch.

[SeanF]

No. No one deserves such a sick, sexualised, humiliating punishment as that.

I might make an exception for Ramsay Bolton.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

There are just some things in the world that are just not right. Rounding up babies and cooking them is an example. Flaying someone alive would be another example. Frying people alive in armor is yet another example.

Rape and any other sexualized punishment falls into a similar category of "shit you just shouldn't do because it's inexcusable, sadistic, and torturous."

None of these things-- torture and sexualized violence-- are ever excusable, or ever count as "justice." No one "deserves" to be victim of any of these things, which are themselves grievous crimes. To defend the use of these methods, and to suggest that anyone "deserves" them is highly troubling, not to mention, really missing the point of the way Martin drew this chapter.

It's a wrong, but it was a deserved wrong. Cersei earned it and brought it on herself. To say I'm "missing the point" by not feeling pity seems like you're saying I didn't understand what Martin was trying to do or the purpose of the chapter when the reality is, I simply didn't care about Cersei.

Wow, I have seen many things in my time on this forum, but never have I ever seen someone ADMIT to being totally ok with this sort of punishment. Thats really embarrassing brah.

I'm sorry if it embarrasses you, that wasn't my intent.

[butterbumps!]

I am concerned with rating punishments, because that is exactly how we judge if it's a fair punishment or not. This is what everyone has done since the beginning of time. That is why more severe punishments have more extreme punishments.

The whole judicial system in Westeros is too extreme for my liking. I can understand arguments against the whole system as a whole, but people like to single out Cersei's punishment as being extreme, but never mention the many poor people who got much worse for less. Walking naked in the street is far, far from the worst thing we have seen in Westeros. Pia and Alayaya got much worse for much less.

I maybe wrong, but the subtext seems to me that the WOS was somehow worse than losing limbs or life sentence on the Wall. Give the prisoners today a choice between doing a WOS or spending time in prison, like Cersei was, then what do you think they will choose?

No, dude, that doesn't work. How do you quantify the anguish of these punishments? By what rubric can you compare Pia or Tysha's gang rape to Davos' loss of fingers or Theon's quantity of flayed skin? How do you compare compare these things objectively?

I posit that the extremity of the punishment is not what's important. The problem with Cersei's punishment in particular is the fact that she's punished for a crime that is only a crime because she's a woman. The second issue is that the punishment is utterly sexual in nature. True, she is minimally physically hurt, and it was a threat of rape rather than actual penetration, but this is still a sexually manipulative punishment. In my view, she is "punished" for the wrong crime with a punishment that is itself a crime.

I know you're not trying to justify the punishment, but I think you're approaching dangerous territory in terms of apologizing for sexualized violence and humiliation.

[Groat]

Consider it questioned. And yet still she deserves it.

Well since we're already down this road, time for a nice bit of controversy. :)

Do you think men who commit rape deserve to be castrated?

EDIT

within the confines of the story of course.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Well, this thread has gotten...interesting.

[butterbumps!]

It's a wrong, but it was a deserved wrong. Cersei earned it and brought it on herself.

No. She. Did. Not.

I have already provided Cersei's full confession. She admits to having sex after Robert's death with Lancel and the 3 Kettleblacks. This is what she is being punished for.

To say I'm "missing the point" by not feeling pity seems like you're saying I didn't understand what Martin was trying to do or the purpose of the chapter when the reality is, I simply didn't care about Cersei.

I don't say that you are missing the point because you don't feel pity.

You are missing the point because you seem unable to understand that what Cersei is being punished for here has nothing to do with her actual enormities. She is being punished because she is a woman who had sex.

You are missing the subsequent point that Martin portrayed the scene in such a way as to prevent us of any joy or satisfaction from the WoS. You don't have to feel pity for her, but to derive a sense of karmic retribution from this scene is, imo, missing the point. Part of this is because her reasons for being punished are entirely beside the point of her actual crimes. Another part of this is because the punishment itself is so sexualized and distasteful that there is no justice served here.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

Let's change the equation. A guy is a murderer, a rapist and whatever horrible thing you can come up with. You know that but he is never caught and got away with his crimes. One day he steals a bread and his hand is chopped off. Even if you personally feel that he deserved it for all his crimes the punishment itself that has been applied to him is wrong because it violates Human Rights and is cruel. Even if he was punished that way for his actual crimes it would be wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. The same goes for the Walk.

I also enjoyed Cersei being taken down in AFFC and I still don't feel pity for her. We are in the realm of fiction and I don't think there's anything questionable about wanting the worse for a character. But objectively speaking no one deserves a sexual humiliating treating because is dehumanizing.

And the Walk is misogynistic. It was a punishment specially designed to degrade women. The HS wouldn't put a male person in the same position even though he could come up with something worse for said person in terms of pain and humiliation.

I'm not arguing that forcing people to do Walks of Shame or chopping off hands for thievery are positive policies. However, in both examples, Cersei and your theoretical murderer/rapist villain are deserving of their punishments. I agree with you, it doesn't make for good law or acceptable punishment for sex with people you're not married to.

[SeanF]

I am concerned with rating punishments, because that is exactly how we judge if it's a fair punishment or not. This is what everyone has done since the beginning of time. That is why more severe punishments have more extreme punishments.

The whole judicial system in Westeros is too extreme for my liking. I can understand arguments against the whole system as a whole, but people like to single out Cersei's punishment as being extreme, but never mention the many poor people who got much worse for less. Walking naked in the street is far, far from the worst thing we have seen in Westeros. Pia and Alayaya got much worse for much less.

I maybe wrong, but the subtext seems to me that the WOS was somehow worse than losing limbs or life sentence on the Wall. Give the prisoners today a choice between doing a WOS or spending time in prison, like Cersei was, then what do you think they will choose?

What Pia went through was absolutely revolting.

Why I do feel some sympathy for Cersei is because she's a Queen and noblewoman, who's being humiliated in an utterly revolting way. Dany, Sansa, Catelyn, Arianne, etc. would all be experiencing the same degree of horror if it was being done to them, precisely because they've been brought up to believe that being noble is almost like being divine.

[mrunderhill]

No, dude, that doesn't work. How do you quantify the anguish of these punishments? By what rubric can you compare Pia or Tysha's gang rape to Davos' loss of fingers or Theon's quantity of flayed skin? How do you compare compare these things objectively?

You make a judgment like we do all the time with things we don't really get.

I posit that the extremity of the punishment is not what's important. The problem with Cersei's punishment in particular is the fact that she's punished for a crime that is only a crime because she's a woman. The second issue is that the punishment is utterly sexual in nature. True, she is minimally physically hurt, and it was a threat of rape rather than actual penetration, but this is still a sexually manipulative punishment. In my view, she is "punished" for the wrong crime with a punishment that is itself a crime.

I have provided a lot of quotes to show that she is not punished for this crime specifically because she is a woman. When the High Septon first heard about her crime he was not going to punish her, it was after hearing about her killing the High Septon. Secondly the Kettleblacks are being punished far more severely.

I know you're not trying to justify the punishment, but I think you're approaching dangerous territory in terms of apologizing for sexualized violence and humiliation.

Nope I am not trying to justify it, but it's not as bad as people are making out. If given the choice between hand chopped off or WOS, I can bet what most people here would choose. If given a choice between WOS of life in prison I know what people would choose. Ask yourself, which would you rather face.

[The Dragon & The Wolf]

again, he doesn't have the right to punish her for things she hasn't been found guilty of.

Clearly he does or Cersei would've been able to tell him to fuck off like she did the Iron Bank. Not even her uncle Kevan was able to help her & Jaime didn't give 2 shits (he probably thought she deserved it as well). The only person who stuck by her side was Qyburn

[mrunderhill]

What Pia went through was absolutely revolting.

Why I do feel some sympathy for Cersei is because she's a Queen and noblewoman, who's being humiliated in an utterly revolting way. Dany, Sansa, Catelyn, Arianne, etc. would all be experiencing the same degree of horror if it was being done to them, precisely because they've been brought up to believe that being noble is almost like being divine.

Noble people are no different than normal people, who get worse every day. What Pia went through was truly disgusting and despicable.

However, let's just look at the language you used. Pia went through something 'absolutely revolting', but Cersei's was 'utterly revolting'. They are not even close to being on the same level. They are a million miles apart in severity.

WOS or lose a Hand? WOS or life in prison? WOS or executed? I personally would not even think a second about choosing the WOS over the other punishments.

[Dany Girl]

No. She. Did. Not.

I have already provided Cersei's full confession. She admits to having sex after Robert's death with Lancel and the 3 Kettleblacks. This is what she is being punished for.

I don't say that you are missing the point because you don't feel pity.

You are missing the point because you seem unable to understand that what Cersei is being punished for here has nothing to do with her actual enormities. She is being punished because she is a woman who had sex.

You are missing the subsequent point that Martin portrayed the scene in such a way as to prevent us of any joy or satisfaction from the WoS. You don't have to feel pity for her, but to derive a sense of karmic retribution from this scene is, imo, missing the point. Part of this is because her reasons for being punished are entirely beside the point of her actual crimes. Another part of this is because the punishment itself is so sexualized and distasteful that there is no justice served here.

:agree: and :cheers: to everything you have said. I do not understand anybody trying to justify thus punishment for the "crime" she is being punished for. It's not a crime. It may be immoral but it's not illegal. No body else has been punished just for having sex (except maybe Pia, but that was sex with the enemy, and her punishment was worse). No man would ever be punished for having consensual sex, even if he was married. That's a major issue I take with this.

[Angalin]

How did a thread that was supposed to be about Cersei in AFFC, end up being soley about 1 chapter at the end of ADWD?

Good question. For that reason, amongst others, I am closing this thread.

A reminder to all posters: advocating, defending or excusing rape and sexual humiliation, whether it happens to a real person or a fictional character, is not tolerated on this board.