Why didn't the Northern lords send troops to castle Black?

[danm_999]

Yea, sure, aside from the ones we actually saw in the book right.

Arnolf had 500 men to bring to Stannis's aid.

Arnolf isn't loyal to the Starks or the ruling Karstarks. He spends ADWD lying to Stannis, who is attempting to strengthen the Wall, and his eldest son Cregan actually attacks the Night's Watch on the Kingsroad.

Why do you think these clowns not rushing to help the Wall is a plothole precisely?

Also, I think one has to recognize that while Alys was no doubt accurate to a degree, lord Karstark only took about 2,500 men south, so if she is taken literally that implies there are only 2,500 able bodied males on the karstark lands. Either GrrM screwed up or ... well, it doesn't make a tonne of sense (or she is exaggerating).

Do you see how far down the rabbit hole you are here? You're accusing the author, who created the world, it's inhabitants, and it's rules, of having 'screwed up' because it doesn't fit your perception.

[Chaircat Meow]

Arnolf isn't loyal to the Starks or the ruling Karstarks. He spends ADWD lying to Stannis, who is attempting to strengthen the Wall, and his eldest son Cregan actually attacks the Night's Watch on the Kingsroad.

Why do you think these clowns not rushing to help the Wall is a plothole precisely?

Why is loyalty to the Starks a precondition for going to aid the Wall. The reason to send forces to halt an invasion from an army at the gates to the north is to save one's lands from being occupied and or ravaged. It's called self preservation.

And as has been pointed out, the karstarks aren't the only group who ought to have showed up. There are Umbers, Mormonts, Clans (a rider can be sent) ...

Do you see how far down the rabbit hole you are here? You're accusing the author, who created the world, it's inhabitants, and it's rules, of having 'screwed up' because it doesn't fit your perception.

Well, no, first there are still karstark men, like the 500 Arnolf has, but yes, if Alys thinks there are only 3,000 or so able bodied men on the karstark lands that sounds a bit odd to me.

[danm_999]

Why is loyalty to the Starks a precondition for going to aid the Wall.

Fair point, it's not. Correlation but not causation.

However you seem to have quite tellingly dodged the fact that Arnolf Karstark is undermining Stannis, the only person actively attempting to strengthen the Wall, and that his eldest son attacked the party Lord Commander of the Night's Watch on the Kingsroad.

So you're not going to knock me over with a feather if you tell me these cats were mute to the appeals from Maester Aemon a few weeks earlier.

The reason to send forces to halt an invasion from an army at the gates to the north is to save one's lands from being occupied and or ravaged. It's called self preservation.

The Stark disloyalists don't tend to view the Wildlings as an earnest threat, sorry to say.

Also, factor into all this talk about self preservation and damage mitigation the fact that the Ironborn are already south of the Wall, already have captured several key Northern strongholds like Winterfell, Moat Cailin and Deepwood Motte.

It's not like the sole tactical concern is Mance Rayder. If anything, the reports of a Wildling army are periphery to the very real threats of an Ironborn invasion, and even in some cases, wanton Bolton expansion under Ramsay Snow; remember the reaction to his military annexation of the Hornwood lands, and how people must feel now Rodrik Cassel is dead.

It's not crazy or unreasonable nobody sends their armies to the Wall; they need them in case of surprise Ironborn attack, or internal chaos.

And as has been pointed out, the karstarks aren't the only group who ought to have showed up. There are Umbers,

Again, green boys and greybears are all Hothor and Whoresbane managed to assemble. All the fighting men died at the Red Wedding. Who do you expect them to send?

Mormonts,

Stannis writes to Jon Alysanne Mormont brings a 'gaggle' to Deepwood Motte. Again, the text doesn't seem to bear out (forgive the pun) these sizeable Northern levies able to help the Watch.

Clans (a rider can be sent) ...

Probably, yes! But it wasn't sent, was it?

So no mysteries as to why you didn't get Hill clans swarming to sure up the defences of the Wall during Mance Rayder's assault. By the time the person seemingly in the know about the Hill clans (Jon) returns to Castle Black, it was really too late to get this rider off.

[Djinn]

Because: 1-After the RW there's a crisis of leadership in the North(that why Stark loyalists are flocking to Stannis, he's the middle ground between them), 2-Northmen like to talk about First Men and Honor and NW but they have ignored it just as much as everyone else, 3-Without the traditional Stark rallying point the North splits into a multitude of House with quarrels between them(like everybody else), 4-With the loss of most elite fighters South everybody starts saving up troops for priority goals(political disputes within the North)and the Wall isn't one, 5-Because there less that a handful of smart people in the entire North(Roose, Barbrey, Wyman) and they are busy with each other.

[Lost Melnibonean]

How many men are at or near WF for the impending or already fought battle in the ice? How many of those men returned with Roose from the south? The remainder could have been sent to the Wall to stop Mance.

[profilebegone]

How many men are at or near WF for the impending or already fought battle in the ice? How many of those men returned with Roose from the south? The remainder could have been sent to the Wall to stop Mance.

The timing's off - the events from the inital attack on Castle Black through Stannis' big save are about a month in length, beginning almost immediately after the Red Wedding.

[Chaircat Meow]

Fair point, it's not. Correlation but not causation.

OK

However you seem to have quite tellingly dodged the fact that Arnolf Karstark is undermining Stannis, the only person actively attempting to strengthen the Wall, and that his eldest son attacked the party Lord Commander of the Night's Watch on the Kingsroad.

So you're not going to knock me over with a feather if you tell me these cats were mute to the appeals from Maester Aemon a few weeks earlier.

This is irrelevant. That happened because Cregan and Arnolf were trying to take over Karhold and wanted Alys back. Nothing to do with their attitude to a potential wildling invasion. There is also the issue of the support of the lords to the wall not being mentioned and not being provided before Stannis shows up. Once he does the civil war is problematic for some people in affecting a coordinated northern response until such a time as he either beats lord Bolton, or is defeated.

The Stark disloyalists don't tend to view the Wildlings as an earnest threat, sorry to say.

Nor do the Stark loyalists. Again there is no connection here.

Also, factor into all this talk about self preservation and damage mitigation the fact that the Ironborn are already south of the Wall, already have captured several key Northern strongholds like Winterfell, Moat Cailin and Deepwood Motte.

It's not like the sole tactical concern is Mance Rayder. If anything, the reports of a Wildling army are periphery to the very real threats of an Ironborn invasion, and even in some cases, wanton Bolton expansion under Ramsay Snow; remember the reaction to his military annexation of the Hornwood lands, and how people must feel now Rodrik Cassel is dead.

It's not crazy or unreasonable nobody sends their armies to the Wall; they need them in case of surprise Ironborn attack, or internal chaos.

If they are right next to the Wall it is, given that the wildings would be the most pregnant threat. I do understand why any northern response would be poor, but that it was omitted altogether strikes me as a plot hole.

Again, green boys and greybears are all Hothor and Whoresbane managed to assemble. All the fighting men died at the Red Wedding. Who do you expect them to send?

Using sweepings (green boys) to defend one's lands is not unusual. These were the quality of troops the lannisters had in their third army mustered in CoK under Ser Stafford. The northern lords should have sent similar contingents to the wall when appraised of a wildling invasion, to take advantage of the natural defensive barrier, especially so seeing as the main army was away and unable to stop the wildlings should they break through the wall.

Stannis writes to Jon Alysanne Mormont brings a 'gaggle' to Deepwood Motte. Again, the text doesn't seem to bear out (forgive the pun) these sizeable Northern levies able to help the Watch.

There are men left in the north in DwD, especially in the Umber lands (who dislike the wildlings) and among the clans. Any Mormont support would help given how stretched the watch is.

Probably, yes! But it wasn't sent, was it?

So no mysteries as to why you didn't get Hill clans swarming to sure up the defences of the Wall during Mance Rayder's assault. By the time the person seemingly in the know about the Hill clans (Jon) returns to Castle Black, it was really too late to get this rider off.

So Jon Snow is the only person who knows about the hill clans. That's totally preposterous. Stannis didn't know about them as he and all his advisers were southrons. The men of the nw should know about them and it is passing odd the clansmen did not ask to be informed of threats to their land.

[Groat]

I think the lack of leadership was the biggest part. In the past, it's always described as the Starks of Winterfell who call their banners to aid the Nights Watch when the Wildlings attack. Most of the prominent lords are south or dead, so leadership of individual castles is sparse, and the people in control are competing against eachother and playing their own mini game of thrones to gain power. Winterfell is sacked and the only Stark alive is in the South. Bear Island is real close to where the Ironborn were raiding, and given the cultural history, it's no suprise they were focused on the Ironborn more than the Wildlings. The Dreadfort men just raised Winterfell, so defending the realm is most likely low on their list of priorites. The letter was described as being sent to the various kings through out the realm, so the smaller lords probably did not even know about it, and the Clansmen most likely do not have ravens so did not know either.

[Barty]

The Karstarks and Umbers took most of the fighting men, no doubt but to say that there were no able bodied men remaining is pretty much impossible to believe. They would be untrained levies and green boys who would require months, if not years, of training to actually become equal to those who left. Ser Rodrik very quickly raises 600 more men from WF and is actively training them as soon as Robb leaves(Bran notices that they were all pretty bad fighters and would require a lot more training). It is not lack of men, but rather lack of trained and armed men that the North is suffering from. A new Northern host would probably look like the one assembled by the Lannisters at Oxcross.

As for why they didn't send men - they were probably more worried about the IronBorn than wildlings. They did not want to send their men to the wall when the ironborn could attack them suddenly - the fall of WF probably reinforced this belief.

[zaphodbrx]

We are actually told in ASOS that ravens were sent to the mountain clans, as well as all other northern lords.

In fact, some of the top clansmen showed up at the wall in ADWD.

I don't buy lack of information as a problem. The motive is quite clear as well. We are told multiple times that these guys hate wildling raiders. As for the idea that they don't have enough troops.. read ADWD. nuff said.

It has to be a plot hole really. I have great admiration for Martin as a writer but he certainly does make mistakes some times.

[conon394]

It has to be a plot hole really.

I don't think so.

First I agree with Groat

I think the lack of leadership was the biggest part. In the past, it's always described as the Starks of Winterfell who call their banners to aid the Nights Watch when the Wildlings attack. Most of the prominent lords are south or dead, so leadership of individual castles is sparse, and the people in control are competing against eachother and playing their own mini game of thrones to gain power. Winterfell is sacked and the only Stark alive is in the South.

This interjects a fair amount of chaos into the system - not just the Starks, but all their key personal and all the top leadership of the North is dead. The squids are still raiding and Ramesy Bolton is hunting Bran and RIckon who some other lords know know is alive. With Roose as lord Paramount and Warden coming north but in the North - calls from the Wall have to seem like back burner. It had been a very long time since any King beyond the wall had manged to invaded and even longer since anyone had seen Others. Take Manderly sure we know he is loyal to the Starks and the North and wants a Stark in Winterfell and also knows of Ramsey/Roose treachery. He has a lot of wealth and power. Its clear he could have sent a force to the Wall, but he would have to put his cards on the table and its clear his priority is defeating the Boltons.

Same goes for Bear Island it seems to have have retained men but it was also very Stark loyal as we find out so between Iron born and Roose I can't see them sending their last levy of solid men to the wall.

Also consider the Stark loyalist side. Roose is now lord of the North and had maneuvered to loose very few men. The Nights watch is not now a place where many Northern sons go willingly but filled with the dregs of the South. So they fall... Now its Roose Bolton's problem. Let Him prove the Bolton's can lead as well as the Starks and defeat a king from beyond the wall with his Lannister and Frey buddies.

The Karstarks

As I recall when they left Robb they also sort dispersed and the Neck was already closed how many in reality ever got home

[The Fallen]

` Why does it have to be one thing or one reason? I think it's all of the reasons that have been listed in previous posts. With regards to the Karstarks, I think we underestimate the willingness of people to cut off their nose to spite their face.

[illrede]

They had men left though, the 18,000 men Robb took is the majority of 'professional' northern forces but there are men left that can be raised and raw levies that can be impressed. In CoK Ser Rodrick wanted the Umbers to co-operate with lord Wyman to prevent Wildling raids. Where do you think the 1,000 Umbers, 3,000 clans warriors, 500 karstarks, 500 Mormonts and so on came from in Dance?

It would mean uncovering your lands with The Bastard of Bolton and the Ironborn out and about? Also I think the Karstarks lost a harvest due to not enough men to bring it in around that time.

[Ice Turtle]

Mance is "The Mance" for some. It's possible that he had made deal with some of clan chiefs.

[Morienthar]

Because they didn't have any men to send and the Mountain Clans probably don't use Maesters and Ravens.

[Team_Rob]

The hill clans hads about 3000 troops according to Jon, but the comment that it served the plot seems correct to me. Two of the clan cheifs came to the wall in ADWD quick enough once Stannis showed up. If the hill clans showed up and saved the day, it would have took the wind out of Jon's sail for saving the wall.

[danm_999]

This is irrelevant. That happened because Cregan and Arnolf were trying to take over Karhold and wanted Alys back.

It's not irrelevant!

The fact Cregan and Arnolf were playing a dodgy game where they had no problem openly attacking the Night's Watch demonstrates why it's not a 'plot hole' they didn't rush to defend the Wall.

There is also the issue of the support of the lords to the wall not being mentioned and not being provided before Stannis shows up.

Do you think their attitudes were formed the moment Stannis arrived, or do you think these factions held these beliefs long before?

If they are right next to the Wall it is,

The only people arguably 'right next to the Wall' are the Umbers and the Hill Clans, and I think we've pretty adequately covered why they didn't send levies.

given that the wildings would be the most pregnant threat.

Says who?

The Ironborn were running rampant through the North, and had captured several of the most critical Northern strongholds. There's no argument you can make to suggest the Wildlings North of the Wall were ever the "most pregnant threat" when the Ironborn were far more consequential. The Ironborn had captured Winterfell, Moat Cailin and Deepwood Motte. The Ironborn had murdered Bran and Rickon Stark. The Ironborn were reaving the Stony Shore, and Torrhen's Square.

Until that point, the Wildlings were still North of the Wall, and because of Mance's desire to preserve the Wall's integrity (given he wanted a buffer against the Others) were relatively uninvasive for a Wildling invasion. Calling them the most pressing Northern concern is insane.

I do understand why any northern response would be poor, but that it was omitted altogether strikes me as a plot hole.

Because you've decided things not fitting your perception in this universe is not a sign you need to alter your understanding, but rather a mistake by the person who created the universe. Honestly, it's pretty spectacularly arrogant.

Using sweepings (green boys) to defend one's lands is not unusual. These were the quality of troops the lannisters had in their third army mustered in CoK under Ser Stafford.

You're comparing the North and the South, where the South is significantly more populated.

The northern lords should have sent similar contingents to the wall when appraised of a wildling invasion, to take advantage of the natural defensive barrier, especially so seeing as the main army was away and unable to stop the wildlings should they break through the wall.

Yes, ideally. But has been stressed, the Northern lords simply do not have the same amount of men to throw at a problem as the Lords of the Westerland do, nor are they going to view the potential Wildling invasion as the main threat (again, the Ironborn).

There are men left in the north in DwD,

Not men of fighting age and stature who can aid the Wall. This is kind of the whole point I've been addressing.

especially in the Umber lands (who dislike the wildlings) and among the clans.

Again, read the Theon quote. The only 'men' left are the Greybeards and the Green boys.

So Jon Snow is the only person who knows about the hill clans. That's totally preposterous.

No, Jon Snow was the only person at Castle Black who knew about the Hill Clans and how to reach them. There was nobody else there who had the proper noble Northern upbringing to recognise their value; the garrison had been drawn away, and the rest left there were the enfeebled or the neophyte.

Stannis didn't know about them as he and all his advisers were southrons. The men of the nw should know about them and it is passing odd the clansmen did not ask to be informed of threats to their land.

The men of the Night's Watch; the Commander Mormonts, the Jaremy Rykers, the Benjen Starks, are all dead or missing. Nobody left at Castle Black had the political intelligence to seek these allies out.

Again, not a plot hole, but a reflection of how far up shit creek the Watch was in ASoS.

[Bluesnow]

1. Robb in the South

2. Roose Bolton

3. Iron Islanders

4. Dead

I have no doubts there were men left as well... but if Winterfell could be taken, I'm sure lords would want to keep as many of their men close as possible to protect themselves. Wildlings are dangerous... but they're poorly armed and don't really know seige tactics that well. They would not be an immediate threat to most castles. I also don't know if any of the Northern lords fully understand the scope of the problem at the wall... there's alot of crap going on in the world.

[Maia]

Because they didn't have any men to send and the Mountain Clans probably don't use Maesters and Ravens.

So what? Nobody thought to send a rider to them, even though they were the closest, completely untouched by war, not in danger from the Ironborn _and_ would have been the first to suffer from the invasion?! Please.

There are explanations for everybody else, perhaps (though I am not convinced), but not for the mountain clans from what we have seen in ADwD. They had thousands of men raring for a fight, and of course, there would have been very compelling self-preservation reasons too.

Naturally, if they had helped the Wall, it would have taken the wind from both Jon's and Stannis's sails and also would presented a reasonable alternative to Jon's plans of wildling integration. And GRRM couldn't have that.

So, yea, a major plothole.

No, Jon Snow was the only person at Castle Black who knew about the Hill Clans and how to reach them. There was nobody else there who had the proper noble Northern upbringing to recognise their value; the garrison had been drawn away, and the rest left there were the enfeebled or the neophyte.

Nobody in NW knew who their closest neighbours and most likely allies were and how to reach them?What?! Not only wouldn't they need to be northmen to know that, but Marsh actually is one, and Mormont was one, so...

[danm_999]

So what? Nobody thought to send a rider to them, even though they were the closest, completely untouched by war, not in danger from the Ironborn _and_ would have been the first to suffer from the invasion?! Please.

There are explanations for everybody else, perhaps (though I am not convinced), but not for the mountain clans from what we have seen in ADwD. They had thousands of men raring for a fight, and of course, there would have been very compelling self-preservation reasons too.

Naturally, if they had helped the Wall, it would have taken the wind from both Jon's and Stannis's sails and also would presented a reasonable alternative to Jon's plans of wildling integration. And GRRM couldn't have that.

So, yea, a major plothole.

Who, praytell, at Castle Black in the weeks before Jon's return would have known to send riders to the Hill Clans though?

Bowen Marsh thought the true threat was the Weeper at the Bridge of Skulls, and took the garrison to deal with that threat.

Maester Aemon, while intelligent, is not a Northerner, and is book smart, and as Jon explicitly tells Stannis in ADWD, the Hill Clans are not shown on maps or really mentioned in books, he only knows of their numbers and viability as allies because of Ned's experiences.

Who does that leave us? Donal Noye; the Smith (and Stormlander besides)? Wynton Stout, the senile ranger? Pyp?

Who exactly present at Castle Black before Jon's return in ASoS was supposed to know to send a rider to the Hill clans?