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Why didn't the Northern lords send troops to castle Black?


zaphodbrx

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Because ... plot hole, imo. No reason the Umbers, Clans and Mormonts couldn't have sent some levies to protect themselves from wildlings. The best place to stop the wildling horde was the Wall after all.

I think the idea is to shut off other options to Jon's wildling resettlement plan in DwD, so his righteousness gels with common sense/military expediency to a greater degree than it should do.

So rather than save the men you have to fight the well trained Lannister and iron born armies that are attacking the northern men they should be sending men to te wall to defend against untrained savages? Right that's makes sense

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It's not irrelevant!

The fact Cregan and Arnolf were playing a dodgy game where they had no problem openly attacking the Night's Watch demonstrates why it's not a 'plot hole' they didn't rush to defend the Wall.

Yea it is. The reason to hold the Wall is to ensure wildlings don't ravage your lands. It is nothing to do with respect for/loyalty to the Starks.

Do you think their attitudes were formed the moment Stannis arrived, or do you think these factions held these beliefs long before?

What beliefs? Just because Arnolf wanted to usurp Alys doesn't mean he isn't interested in defending the north. The same goes for Bolton and co.

The only people arguably 'right next to the Wall' are the Umbers and the Hill Clans, and I think we've pretty adequately covered why they didn't send levies.

Well no, we haven't. They can spare 4,000 men between them for a civil war, you'd think they could cough up some to save their people from the Weeper and his buddies.

Says who?

The Ironborn were running rampant through the North, and had captured several of the most critical Northern strongholds. There's no argument you can make to suggest the Wildlings North of the Wall were ever the "most pregnant threat" when the Ironborn were far more consequential. The Ironborn had captured Winterfell, Moat Cailin and Deepwood Motte. The Ironborn had murdered Bran and Rickon Stark. The Ironborn were reaving the Stony Shore, and Torrhen's Square.

Until that point, the Wildlings were still North of the Wall, and because of Mance's desire to preserve the Wall's integrity (given he wanted a buffer against the Others) were relatively uninvasive for a Wildling invasion. Calling them the most pressing Northern concern is insane.

They were the greatest danger to the lords and chiefs right next to the wall. Not for lady Dustin say, but for the Umbers and Clans sure, owing to proximity. And the northerns weren't doing anything to counteract the ironborn either, it is not as if they'd mustered their men to guard against them.

Because you've decided things not fitting your perception in this universe is not a sign you need to alter your understanding, but rather a mistake by the person who created the universe. Honestly, it's pretty spectacularly arrogant.

If the author wanted to represent warfare/logistics in a way that gelled even slighlty with RL norms he can't have the entire able male population marched off to war. Only modern states can do that.

You're comparing the North and the South, where the South is significantly more populated.

Actually no. We know the northerners have the men for raw levies, if the lannisters can use the sweepings of lannisport to defend the west, there is no reason the northern lords can't use their own sweepings for self defence.

Yes, ideally. But has been stressed, the Northern lords simply do not have the same amount of men to throw at a problem as the Lords of the Westerland do, nor are they going to view the potential Wildling invasion as the main threat (again, the Ironborn).

Well the Clans and Umbers weren't even doing anything about the ironborn until Stannis showed up, which hardly supports the view they were focusing on the ironborn. And a wildling invasion compromises their ability to liberate the north even further, and it is much easier to stop at the Wall itself than beyond it.

Not men of fighting age and stature who can aid the Wall. This is kind of the whole point I've been addressing.

They have men who can engage in warfare as is made abundantly clear in DwD. It is not wise to deny this. Unlike lord Bolton the wildlings will be expected to ravage the land south of the Wall, seeing as they raid regularly, so if troops can be spared for a march on WF ...

Again, read the Theon quote. The only 'men' left are the Greybeards and the Green boys.

Who are still being used for military purposes.

No, Jon Snow was the only person at Castle Black who knew about the Hill Clans and how to reach them. There was nobody else there who had the proper noble Northern upbringing to recognise their value; the garrison had been drawn away, and the rest left there were the enfeebled or the neophyte.

Jon is not the only Black Brother at CB. It is utterly ridiculous to suggest he was the only person who lived at CB to know of the existence of the watch's next door neighbours.

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Yea it is. The reason to hold the Wall is to ensure wildlings don't ravage your lands. It is nothing to do with respect for/loyalty to the Starks.

I'm talking respect for the Night's Watch. Anybody who attacks them on the Kingsroad doesn't fit the profile of something I'd imagine sends them aid. This point is exceedingly clear.

What beliefs? Just because Arnolf wanted to usurp Alys doesn't mean he isn't interested in defending the north. The same goes for Bolton and co.

Again, physical and diplomatic hostility towards the Night's Watch makes it unquestionably clear why these Houses didn't send their levies to the Wall when Maester Aemon called for help.

Well no, we haven't. They can spare 4,000 men between them for a civil war, you'd think they could cough up some to save their people from the Weeper and his buddies.

Yes we have. They weren't consulted. I agree they should have been informed, but the Bowen Marsh brain trust simply didn't.

This isn't a case of plot hole, it's a case of incompetant leadership.

They were the greatest danger to the lords and chiefs right next to the wall.

Again, no. Anybody already south of the Wall is a bigger problem, regardless of where you sit in the North, because at least you've still the got the Wall in between you and them, dippy Night's Watch defense or no.

Not for lady Dustin say, but for the Umbers and Clans sure, owing to proximity. And the northerns weren't doing anything to counteract the ironborn either, it is not as if they'd mustered their men to guard against them.

Err, re-read ACoK. That's exactly what Ser Rodrik was doing. In fact, he basically drained all the available Northern manpower reserves to drive the Ironborn out of Winterfell and Deepwood Motte, until Ramsay ambushed and slew them (again answering the fundamental question of why there weren't reserve levies available for the Night's Watch).

If the author wanted to represent warfare/logistics in a way that gelled even slighlty with RL norms he can't have the entire able male population marched off to war. Only modern states can do that.

Oh dear, maybe here's where we've come unstuck.

Actually no. We know the northerners have the men for raw levies,

Asserting it doesn't make it true.

if the lannisters can use the sweepings of lannisport to defend the west, there is no reason the northern lords can't use their own sweepings for self defence.

Because there's more to sweep up in Lannisport than in the North.

Well the Clans and Umbers weren't even doing anything about the ironborn until Stannis showed up,

Says who?

Who are still being used for military purposes.

Yes, once Winter has hit. But you can surely see why they weren't being used for a rather pie in the sky invasion claim from Maester Aemon when there was still the opportunity to bring in harvests during Autumn?

The rank desperation of using old men and young boys perfectly answers your grievances with the Umbers failure to send levies to the Wall to defend against Mance Rayder.

Jon is not the only Black Brother at CB. It is utterly ridiculous to suggest he was the only person who lived at CB to know of the existence of the watch's next door neighbours.

I'll re-iterate my sentiments from post #40. Who precisely are you suggesting (apart from Jon) would have the practical knowledge to contact the Hill Clans that is present at Castle Black in the weeks before Mance's invasion?

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I'll re-iterate my sentiments from post #40. Who precisely are you suggesting (apart from Jon) would have the practical knowledge to contact the Hill Clans that is present at Castle Black in the weeks before Mance's invasion?

I think it's more out-of-the-box thinking. Stannis is trying to get noble houses to declare for him, and his efforts have been along that vein- this guy gets that castle, the skull of this bandit chief is delivered to that guy, etc... Jon basically said "make a play for the Highlanders. They'll have you if you do it like this".

Otherwise they just aren't on anybodies minds as a resource. You can't get ravens to them. They're impossible to mobilize practically. Nights Watch riders with no standing just wouldn't do.

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I'm talking respect for the Night's Watch. Anybody who attacks them on the Kingsroad doesn't fit the profile of something I'd imagine sends them aid. This point is exceedingly clear.

It doesn't take any respect for the nw to defend the Wall against an invading army given your own lands will be exposed.

Again, physical and diplomatic hostility towards the Night's Watch makes it unquestionably clear why these Houses didn't send their levies to the Wall when Maester Aemon called for help.

There is no hostility that we know of until the Alys-Cregan fiasco.

Yes we have. They weren't consulted. I agree they should have been informed, but the Bowen Marsh brain trust simply didn't.

And Jon never thought to send a message either? He didn't know how long he could hold out, if it was an option the oh so brilliant and wonderful Jon Snow should have thought of it ...

This isn't a case of plot hole, it's a case of incompetant leadership.

No it isn't. The author was not trying to make a point Jon was incompetent here.

Again, no. Anybody already south of the Wall is a bigger problem, regardless of where you sit in the North, because at least you've still the got the Wall in between you and them, dippy Night's Watch defense or no.

Come on. The whole point of this discussion is that the Wall needs manpower to hold out against an invasion so it can protect the north. Rayder was public enemy number 1 before Ned went south so when appraised of the threat one tends to imagine people would respond, be willing to respond, even if only with small forces.

Err, re-read ACoK. That's exactly what Ser Rodrik was doing. In fact, he basically drained all the available Northern manpower reserves to drive the Ironborn out of Winterfell and Deepwood Motte, until Ramsay ambushed and slew them (again answering the fundamental question of why there weren't reserve levies available for the Night's Watch).

Rodrick wasn't asking for help from the far north at all. We know the places he asked for help from (Barrowtown, White harbour, Wolfswood). And again, there are reserves left aside from the Rodrick army as we see them in DwD. Denying this fact just makes you look rather silly.

Oh dear, maybe here's where we've come unstuck.

Well the author has tried to make his description of warfare fit tolerably well with RL norms, and this is a really glaring departure if he thinks lord Karstark took every able bodied man. His grasp on logistics is a bit poor though, given the infamous 300 miles long supply lines from the west to the Crossroads, you'd think it was the eighteenth century. It is ridiculous to think there were only 2,500 able bodies men in the karstark lands.

Asserting it doesn't make it true.

.

No, it doesn't. A leaf through DwD does though. The men the Clans and Umbers raise are levies so that's why we know they can still raise levies.

Because there's more to sweep up in Lannisport than in the North.

More, certainly, but there are still sweepings to be made in the north as that's what people are doing in DwD.

Says who?

There are no accounts of them attacking the ironborn.

Yes, once Winter has hit. But you can surely see why they weren't being used for a rather pie in the sky invasion claim from Maester Aemon when there was still the opportunity to bring in harvests during Autumn?

Why would they assume it was pie in the sky. They don't have to remain permanently. Rayder can't survive a whole winter under the wall, they need to turn up long enough to see him off.

The rank desperation of using old men and young boys perfectly answers your grievances with the Umbers failure to send levies to the Wall to defend against Mance Rayder.

Right, they can spare men for a death march on WF but not to defend their own women and children from the depredations of the Weeper, Rattleshirt, and a host that will pick their lands clean etc. Got it.

I'll re-iterate my sentiments from post #40. Who precisely are you suggesting (apart from Jon) would have the practical knowledge to contact the Hill Clans that is present at Castle Black in the weeks before Mance's invasion?

Well, Jon actually, but yes, anyone else who lives there. Bowen receives food supplies from all over the north, he knows where people live.

But yea, lets get real and accept your view that the karstark lands have a male population that, excepting old men and young boys, is 3,000 strong (if that), that no one knows about the clans, and that Jon selectively remembers in DwD (lol on that one) and that dislodging Roose Bolton is more important than saving your own families and what is left of the harvest from a wildling invasion. Yea, plausible much.

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No troops brah. By that point most of the good fighting men in The North were South with Robb. The Mountain Clans only had so many men because as guerrilla fighters I don't think Robb would have utilized them in battlefields in the South so much. Look at The Umbers - all that's left of their men are green boys and old men.

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There is an event that can't be stressed enough because of all the secondary information it conveys.

The Karstarks lost a harvest because they couldn't get it in.

I'll explain that. Sowing can be done as its done, but getting a harvest in is a race. You have a number of days and then the grain shatters and you've lost it- so your ability to get it in is directly related to having a number of peak workers on hand; you can't get creative make do with less. A set number of people that can do dawn-to-dusk burst work. People who can do that are also people that can fight. People who can't are also people that can't fight.

When people are in risk of losing a harvest because of this, they bring in unattached labor that can fill this role. If they can't do that, that means the surrounding area also has no available free manpower that can fill this role.

The information about the Karstark harvest then tells us that the North was tapped out for "loose" fighters.

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