If Drogo Invaded Westeros *long*

[OuterZan]

So now we have a quote from Martin claiming what many of us already new. The Dothraki were in fact based on Mongols and Huns. The Dothraki will likely do what the Huns and Mongols did, adapt.

How would they adapt? They would suddenly teach their horses to walk in the snow? Learn mathematics and construction to build siege weapons? Drogo would suddenly change from a grumpy brute into a brilliant tactician, all that in less than two years?

The only similarity between Mongols and Dothraki is that they are nomad horsemen.

[Draco_Dracul]

Exactly, while they superficially resemble the Mongols, the Dothraki lack the logistics and organization of the Mongols.

[enoofu]

Drogo only threat is that the people that hate Robert maybe will flock together, But Vary's must of been on acid thinking anyone beside the Dorne would want to join forces with a foreign horde that only know pillaging and raping.

[armidil0]

Let's see them get through the neck.

Also it depends on where they land, really. If they land in the Vale, they might be able to get through the mountains, but I doubt it, and they'll be crushed by an organized Kings army. If they land in the Crownl;ands then the Riverlands/Stromlands/Westerlands would team up to take them out. If they landed on the Stormlands, then the Reach,/Westerlands and Crownlands would take them out. If they landed on Dorne then the desert and then an army of Reach and Stormlands will take them out at the marches.

The North is so vast they could probably take one area out before everybody else grouped together and took them out.

But I'm sure this has been said before in 5 pages.

[tormund's beard]

Let's see them get through the neck.

Also it depends on where they land, really. If they land in the Vale, they might be able to get through the mountains, but I doubt it, and they'll be crushed by an organized Kings army. If they land in the Crownl;ands then the Riverlands/Stromlands/Westerlands would team up to take them out. If they landed on the Stormlands, then the Reach,/Westerlands and Crownlands would take them out. If they landed on Dorne then the desert and then an army of Reach and Stormlands will take them out at the marches.

The North is so vast they could probably take one area out before everybody else grouped together and took them out.

But I'm sure this has been said before in 5 pages.

the north it's huge, cold and probably isn't easy to move 100k people and their horses very quickly. also the population of the north is very thin and it doesn't have the resources of the dothraki sea to keep them and their horses fed.

[Sir Tan Lee]

Let's see them get through the neck.

l

I agree but that's about the only part of your post I agree with.

1. They would probably land near the Stormlands for two reasons. One, because from the Stormlands to the rock it is mostly open fields thus giving them the terrain that suits them best. Two, because that area is the most fertile which would be needed for the horses.

2. The rebellion is going to continue. Robb, Tywin and Stannis aren't going to put aside their differences to battle Dothraki. If any thing they'll all just use the situation to further destroy each other. The only allies Khal Drogo can hope for is Dorne and the North. Dorne because they don't like the Lannisters and this is just the thing they were waiting for. The only way Khal Drogo could ally with the North is if he agrees not to invade the North which isn't likely.

I don't think the Dothraki could take the north due to Moat Cailin and the swamp I also don't think they could take the Vale because of the mountains but everything else would be ripe for the taking.

[Winters]

A pike wall/shield wall on a hill/forest would devastate a Dothraki force 10x their size. Drogo simply does not have a chance, they are raiders not soldiers, just like the Wildlings but far worse. They were only meant to be a distraction for Varys/Aegon & Co.

[Sir Tan Lee]

A pike wall/shield wall on a hill/forest would devastate a Dothraki force 10x their size. Drogo simply does not have a chance, they are raiders not soldiers, just like the Wildlings but far worse. They were only meant to be a distraction for Varys/Aegon & Co.

Westerosi don't typically use shield walls and even if they did it wouldn't be nearly as effective as the unsullied. The typical Westerosi foot soldier wouldn't be disciplined enough to hold a shield wall for very long. The only reason Unsullied could beat Dothraki is because they have Robotic like discipline.

They are like the Wildlings but far worse, WHAT? Dothraki are essentially Mongols only lacking armor and Genghis Khan. Wildlings are hardly a step up from cavemen. (many of the Wildling tribes are probably cavemen)

The Wildlings are just the type of people the Dothraki trample on a regular basis.

[tormund's beard]

asuming drogo is alive when they cross to westeros pray to all the gods that he doesn't die because the dothraki will not follow any other guy just by default you've got a civil war waiting to happen. also 1 shadow baby can disband an entire khalasar.

[Mayhaps...it is known.]

I agree but that's about the only part of your post I agree with.

1. They would probably land near the Stormlands for two reasons. One, because from the Stormlands to the rock it is mostly open fields thus giving them the terrain that suits them best. Two, because that area is the most fertile which would be needed for the horses.

If the Dothraki tried to land in the stormlands their fleet would take a beating against the rocks along the coastline of shipbreaker bay. That stretch of water is dangerous for experienced sailors, it's practically a death sentence for such as the dothraki. But they would not survive for long no matter where they landed, unless perhaps they got Dorne on their side because of the targ connection and landed there, but they would still stand alone against the rest of Westeros, so...

[conon394]

So now we have a quote from Martin claiming what many of us already new. The Dothraki were in fact based on Mongols and Huns. The Dothraki will likely do what the Huns and Mongols did, adapt.

Look GRRM can say that and maybe he means in that are a his steppe nomad culture and it be hard to say they are based in some why on real life examples...

But as written they are not at all like Mongols. They are stupid, insular and have few if any of the capabilities of actual successful steppe armies of Real life. Now if GRRM wants them to find 3000+ ships and he wants them in Westeros and he wants them to be unstoppable well that is how it will be. BUT as written so far there is in fact no reason for anybody in Westros to worry even if a bridge to Essos appeared.

Mobile guerrilla armies have been causing havoc for centuries. There are hundreds of examples of mobile, albeit vastly inferior technologically advanced forces, causing fits against the better equiped, but clunky larger force.They are a warrior people united by a beast of a man.

That does not work so well if you are the invader, with a completely alien culture and beliefs that are anathema to the locals

More generally again there is no reason to assume they would be more mobile - they do actively use strings of remounts either operationally or tactically.

They use no effective armor, have no lancers and thus no way to charge home against better cavalry let alone infantry.

They certainly do not have even a show of the organization, discipline, open minded thing and willingness to adapt that the Mongols had let alone even less well organized steppe peoples. This is aptly demonstrated in the Unsullied story they charge over and over again vs steady infantry and only try arrows what 3 times? Against Westros pikes backed by foot archers they would not likely even manged more than one charge and whatever was left would have been steam rolled by a heavy and light cavalry charge

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Dothraki are essentially Mongols only lacking armor and Genghis Khan

Umm those are super big lacks especially the second

Westerosi foot soldier wouldn't be disciplined enough to hold a shield wall for very long. The only reason Unsullied could beat Dothraki is because they have Robotic like discipline.

I dunno what makes you say that - farm boys from democratic Athens did not have a problem holding a shield wall and they were not rather over the top fantasy robots. It would be pretty easy I think to hold a pike wall against a suicidal charge of stupid light infantry.

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Overall the Dothraki as written are over-rated.

Also is it clear the Roberts council takes them seriously? Who is actually giving honest advice to Robert who mostly just wants a excuse to assassinate some Targs. Neither Ned nor Selmy seem fearful. LF and Varys have there own agendas and I think is fair to say anything that came out of their mouths was of doubtful creditability and Pycell was a tool at best.

[Winters]

Westerosi don't typically use shield walls and even if they did it wouldn't be nearly as effective as the unsullied. The typical Westerosi foot soldier wouldn't be disciplined enough to hold a shield wall for very long. The only reason Unsullied could beat Dothraki is because they have Robotic like discipline.

They are like the Wildlings but far worse, WHAT? Dothraki are essentially Mongols only lacking armor and Genghis Khan. Wildlings are hardly a step up from cavemen. (many of the Wildling tribes are probably cavemen)

The Wildlings are just the type of people the Dothraki trample on a regular basis.

As others have mentioned, Dothraki are only like Mongols in that they were both nomadic. Furthermore it appears you are vastly underestimating the impact any sort of rough terrain has upon the effectiveness of cavalry. A stream, a rocket field, even a slight rise can turn a charge into a massacre. A horseman's main advantages are speed and momentum. Lose those and you have a bigger target for someone with a pike to stab or an archer to shoot. Add that to Westerosi long bowmen vally firing against unarmoured Dothraki the advantage shifts to the defense.

Westeros ain't the flat empty plains of Essos. The Reach and Riverlands may lack the mountains or marsh of other regions but they are no steppe. Any confrontation with the Dothraki, considering the invaders haven't been destroyed crossing the NS, will depend on how stupid the Westerosi commanders are.

I considered Wildlings superior *in this stituation* as not only at they Westerosi natives experienced fighting Westerosi fighters, but also due to their better knowledge of terrain, and, like the Ironborn, relatively effective as shock infantry - which would be more effective than light cavalry.

[Reek Da Villain]

Westeros is ripe for conquering. The ripest it has ever been. There is war EVERY WHERE. Everywhere.

The Dothraki aren't conquerors. That's not how they do business. But they'll raid and take slaves. If a large khalasar were to land in Westeros, given the condition the Seven Kingdoms are in right now, I'd put my money on the khalasar doing whatever it wants. I think too much is made up of the fact that Dothraki screamers do not wear armor. Well, they're mounted on horses. That puts them at an automatic advantage. Also, not all Westerosi men at arms wear armor. I'd say less than half do.

I highly doubt the Seven Kingdoms would unite to ward off a Dothraki invasion. No way. Stannis is caught up. The North Remembers. The Greyjoys ally with no one. And the Freys are always late. So who would help protect King's Landing--or even Lannisport?

If Khal Drogo invaded Westeros he would fuck shit up--for lack of a better term.

[Sir Tan Lee]

As others have mentioned, Dothraki are only like Mongols in that they were both nomadic.

Then they are undoubtedly wrong.

They use the same tactics, they use the same bows, they have a similar culture, etc...

Furthermore it appears you are vastly underestimating the impact any sort of rough terrain has upon the effectiveness of cavalry. A stream, a rocket field, even a slight rise can turn a charge into a massacre.

These aren't anything Essos lacks or parts of the Steppe for that matter. The Dothraki would be used to this sort of thing.

Add that to Westerosi long bowmen vally firing against unarmoured Dothraki the advantage shifts to the defense.

mounted archers with Recurve bows would be superior to grounded longbowmen. Archers aren't usually that armored either most have leather and others use chainmail. Neither of which can withstand arrows.

Westeros ain't the flat empty plains of Essos. The Reach and Riverlands may lack the mountains or marsh of other regions but they are no steppe. Any confrontation with the Dothraki, considering the invaders haven't been destroyed crossing the NS, will depend on how stupid the Westerosi commanders are.

Cavalry don't need to be on the steppe to be just as effective. The Mongols proved this when they invaded china, Europe and Korea.

I considered Wildlings superior *in this stituation* as not only at they Westerosi natives experienced fighting Westerosi fighters, but also due to their better knowledge of terrain, and, like the Ironborn, relatively effective as shock infantry - which would be more effective than light cavalry.

Better knowledge of the environment is an advantage but not a very big one (see the colonization of America). Especially when your fighting Dothraki who already live off the land and are quite used to being in the wild.

Most Wildlings: Hunters and gatherers who use bone or stone spears as hunting tools and maybe one in a few hundred or even a thousand has killed a Black Brother at some point. Untrained, unarmored, primitive weapons, almost entirely infantry, and very little discipline.

Most Dothraki: Trained from birth to ride a horse and shoot arrows, use Iron or steel weapons, always go into combat on a horse and kill people for a living.

Wildlings are good as shock infantry? Not even close. Maybe surprise night raids but that's about it. Light cavalry and Horse archers do the best against foes like this.

[conon394]

Also, not all Westerosi men at arms wear armor. I'd say less than half do.

Odd because in almost every situation were a man at arms is in a ready for combat situation they amour is ubiquitous. Sure not while hunting oe whoring or surprised or at court etc, but in general all the standard levy of Westros tends to be in armor.

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They use the same tactics, they use the same bows, they have a similar culture, etc...

No they do not, they lack the organization, the discipline, lancers, armor, command structure, remounts, sheep (umm kind of critical to staying alive on the steppe), adaptability, siege craft, etc - they are nothing like Mongols in fact except thay are sort of a nomad society.

mounted archers with Recurve bows would be superior to grounded longbowmen. Archers aren't usually that armored either most have leather and others use chainmail. Neither of which can withstand arrows.

Better tell the Mamluks since there dismounted archers easy bested the Mongal horse archers.

Cavalry don't need to be on the steppe to be just as effective. The Mongols proved this when they invaded china, Europe and Korea.

And once again as written the Dothraki have absolutely none of the things that allowed those Mongol conquests

[Reek Da Villain]

I expect the knights to be in armor, but that's about it. A lot of the men can't even afford armor.

[Xasthur]

The Dothraki are rather a misconception for me. No armour, short weapons, no infantry, tribal structure and no logistics. They would get their ass kicked against any reasonable force.

But I don't really care, since it looks like they are not going to attack anything at all in ASOIAF.

[Dana Holland]

remember geography and climate are important. When are they invading? how close to winter is it? If its winter time the dorthanki wont be used to the cold thats an extra advantage

[Sir Tan Lee]

No they do not, they lack the organization, the discipline, lancers, armor, command structure, remounts, sheep (umm kind of critical to staying alive on the steppe), adaptability, siege craft, etc - they are nothing like Mongols in fact except thay are sort of a nomad society.

You are sort of correct but not entirely.

How do you know the Dothraki don't have a structured chain of command? The books only delve into the top tiers but they don't say anything about the lower chain of command.

Dothraki surely have livestock and remounts. They wouldn't be able to survive with out them. Just because GRRM doesn't add every little detail doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

As far as adaptability and tactics go. There is nothing that says Dothraki are bad tacticians. Khal Drogo has never lost a battle and by judging the bells in his hair hes been in quite a few.

[Morienthar]

Dothraki surely have livestock and remounts. They wouldn't be able to survive with out them. Just because GRRM doesn't add every little detail doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

As far as adaptability and tactics go. There is nothing that says Dothraki are bad tacticians. Khal Drogo has never lost a battle and by judging the bells in his hair hes been in quite a few.

They don't they survive as a raiding culture,I assume they have an extra mount though yeah.

Drogo won fights,Stannis and Bob won battles,there's a difference.