If Drogo Invaded Westeros *long*

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Not going into the depth, because honestly, I've done that every month for two years. Shall the young folks handle it while I rest m weary old finger bones :cool4:. just a couple of points:

Westerosi don't typically use shield walls and even if they did it wouldn't be nearly as effective as the unsullied. The typical Westerosi foot soldier wouldn't be disciplined enough to hold a shield wall for very long. The only reason Unsullied could beat Dothraki is because they have Robotic like discipline.

There is a single field battle shown in a PoV. With two infantry formations mentioned en detail: Karstark spearmen forming a shield wall and Kevan Lannister commanding pikes.

All the Westerosi mainland infantry formations in the entire series form shield walls or gewalthaufen.

mounted archers with Recurve bows would be superior to grounded longbowmen. Archers aren't usually that armored either most have leather and others use chainmail. Neither of which can withstand arrows.

Nope. Infantry archers always outgunned mounted archers. It's simple physis, you can't draw the same weight purely with your arms instead of the full body.

I expect the knights to be in armor, but that's about it. A lot of the men can't even afford armor.

Pretty much every sole mentioned soldier in the entire series sports at least a padded jack. Most have chainmail. Yes, a lot of men can't afford armor. They don't go to war. People who do can afford armor.

[SeanF]

Not going into the depth, because honestly, I've done that every month for two years. Shall the young folks handle it while I rest m weary old finger bones :cool4:. just a couple of points:

There is a single field battle shown in a PoV. With two infantry formations mentioned en detail: Karstark spearmen forming a shield wall and Kevan Lannister commanding pikes.

All the Westerosi mainland infantry formations in the entire series form shield walls or gewalthaufen.

Nope. Infantry archers always outgunned mounted archers. It's simple physis, you can't draw the same weight purely with your arms instead of the full body.

Pretty much every sole mentioned soldier in the entire series sports at least a padded jack. Most have chainmail. Yes, a lot of men can't afford armor. They don't go to war. People who do can afford armor.

I agree with all of that, although Ser Jorah seems to think that a battle between a Khalasar and a Westerosi army would be a close-run thing, and he is a very experienced soldier.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I agree with all of that, although Ser Jorah seems to think that a battle between a Khalasar and a Westerosi army would be a close-run thing, and he is a very experienced soldier.

Meh, that statement of his is very interesting if you read it again. Basically it amounts to "Initially, while I was thinking with my brain, hell no. Now, while I'm thinking with my cock, if the Westerosi Lords are extremely dumb, all of them, which goes straight against the character of at least Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister explicitly, disregarding the transportation problem, if the Westerosi Lords bent the knee after a single battle (fat chance) and with a whole bunch of luck, there may be a tiny little chance of actually succeeding."

It's grasping for straws.

[Morienthar]

I agree with all of that, although Ser Jorah seems to think that a battle between a Khalasar and a Westerosi army would be a close-run thing, and he is a very experienced soldier.

Jorah was more likely trying to convince himself.

[joluoto]

Drogo's khalassar would ride around and pillage, call the Westerosi cowards for hiding in their Stone Houses. Then they would go home with their loot. That's why the Khalassar wouldn't work alone. You'd need a Khalassar combined with another army that could take care of boring stuff like sieges.

[Gannicus]

Look it might not be completely realistic but when veterans like Robert and Jorah believe they would pose a threat, chances are they would. It's fantasy kids. Armor still exists in Essos and the Dothraki Horde is still able to demand payments at will.

I'm convinced we'll see a Dothraki army in Westeros before ASOIAF is done. I'm certain they'll cause problems. The Mountain clans cause problems in the Vale, the BWB can cause problems in the Riverlands, and the wildlings cause problems in the north. It's foolish to think a Dothraki Horde wouldn't be a much larger problem.

Again they couldn't conquer the seven kingdoms but 40,000 dothraki screamers would be a tough bug to squash.

I suggest you read the full paragraph he says that the Mongols got disciplined and advanced at one stage.

The Dothraki are like the early steppe riders that were present in mongolia but they aren't the Mongols who struck fear into half the world.

I read the full interview. Why couldn't the Dothraki gain discipline under their Khaleesi or pick-up numerous technological advancements in Westeros.

Those Nomadic Stepp Riders became the Mongol conquerors almost over night when they were united by Ghengis Kahn.

Who in the small council takes them seriously? As far as i recall the only man with military experience who feared them was Robert. And id call into question how much they actually know about the Dothraki-has Robert ever met one? Does he know how they fight, their lack of armor, fear of the sea etcetc?

The small counsel agrees with Roberts decision meaning it's probable they believe Dany could become a threat with a Khalesar behind her.

How would they adapt? They would suddenly teach their horses to walk in the snow? Learn mathematics and construction to build siege weapons? Drogo would suddenly change from a grumpy brute into a brilliant tactician, all that in less than two years?

The only similarity between Mongols and Dothraki is that they are nomad horsemen.

There are any number of ways they could adapt. It could be as simple as using improved weapons and strapping on light armor.

The Mongols didn't always have armor or siege weapons but they adapted. Their tactics In Essos are effective. If they had to change things in Westeros why couldn't they?

[Gannicus]

Not going into the depth, because honestly, I've done that every month for two years. Shall the young folks handle it while I rest m weary old finger bones :cool4:. just a couple of points:

There is a single field battle shown in a PoV. With two infantry formations mentioned en detail: Karstark spearmen forming a shield wall and Kevan Lannister commanding pikes.

All the Westerosi mainland infantry formations in the entire series form shield walls or gewalthaufen.

Nope. Infantry archers always outgunned mounted archers. It's simple physis, you can't draw the same weight purely with your arms instead of the full body.

Pretty much every sole mentioned soldier in the entire series sports at least a padded jack. Most have chainmail. Yes, a lot of men can't afford armor. They don't go to war. People who do can afford armor.

Your medieval techno babel make sense in some ways. But a good leader wouldn't lead his light Calvary into a shield wall against heavily armored infantry. The best strategy a Dothraki Khalesar could employ in an open battle would be encirclement.

It's true archers from the ground can deliver more power, but the Dothraki are moving targets. The composite bows the huns and mongols use easily pierce mail so that would only be a problem for one of the heavily armored Lords.

[Morienthar]

I read the full interview. Why couldn't the Dothraki gain discipline under their Khaleesi or pick-up numerous technological advancements in Westeros.

Those Nomadic Stepp Riders became the Mongol conquerors almost over night when they were united by Ghengis Kahn.

They didn't change overnight it took time nearly 12 years to unite them all.

The Technological advancements had been happening for a while(about 70 years) before that,They were divided but not a stagnant culture like the Dothrakhi.

Ghengis Khan united them sure but he didn't introduce heavy cavalry and infantry and buildings and siege tactics that had already been evolving since the rise of the Mongolic Kitan.

[joluoto]

People who compare the Dothraki with Mongols miss some key differences. The Mongols were armored, and thus much harder to deal with than the unarmored Dothraki. The Mongols also built siege engines and thus could conduct sieges. The Dothraki have no stomach for this, and just think people hiding behind walls are cowards. The Mongols also trained several advanced military tactics, unlike the Dothraki.

[Frey Pie]

The small counsel agrees with Roberts decision meaning it's probable they believe Dany could become a threat with a Khalesar behind her.

Varys, LF, Pycelle and Renly don't know one end of a sword from another. Barristan IIRC is with Ned on the assassinating Dany so....

[Gannicus]

Varys, LF, Pycelle and Renly don't know one end of a sword from another. Barristan IIRC is with Ned on the assassinating Dany so....

Look, you asked "Who in small cousel took the seriously?"

Barristan and Ned were against the assassination for moral reasons not tactical ones. Barristan is a Targ loyalist at heart and Ned just has too much class to assassinate a young girl like that.

[Gannicus]

They didn't change overnight it took time nearly 12 years to unite them all.

The Technological advancements had been happening for a while(about 70 years) before that,They were divided but not a stagnant culture like the Dothrakhi.

Ghengis Khan united them sure but he didn't introduce heavy cavalry and infantry and buildings and siege tactics that had already been evolving since the rise of the Mongolic Kitan.

In earth terms that's essentially overnight. In Martin's Fantasy book I'm almost positive we'll see the Dothraki under Dany adapt. Even if it's a simple as starving out a castle.

[Morienthar]

In earth terms that's essentially overnight. In Martin's Fantasy book I'm almost positive we'll see the Dothraki under Dany adapt. Even if it's a simple as starving out a castle.

Not in human terms,We aren't looking at geological history here.Khan lived for 65 years of which 16-18 years were child hood and the next 12 were spent uniting the tribes.

I doubt Dany herself can change leave alone changing the people around her.

[Gannicus]

When the Dothraki do have success in Westeros I'm sure we'll see a rush of people on the forum claiming GRRM has ruined the realness of the series. Let's push aside the warging, dragon riding, army of dead, and resurrections. "No way could a nomadic people without armor defeat these advanced armies in the west." :rolleyes:

[Morienthar]

When the Dothraki do have success in Westeros I'm sure we'll see a rush of people on the forum claiming GRRM has ruined the realness of the series. Let's push aside the warging, dragon riding, army of dead, and resurrections. "No way could a nomadic people without armor defeat these advanced armies in the west." :rolleyes:

Those things don't exist(The Magical stuff) but nomadic people with no armor did exist and they did nothing.

So it would be a valid claim,Unless he decides to portray the Dothraki as some sort of super men.

[Gannicus]

Those things don't exist(The Magical stuff) but nomadic people with no armor did exist and they did nothing.

So it would be a valid claim,Unless he decides to portray the Dothraki as some sort of super men.

It's really no skin off my back but I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed. Martin will get around the technicalities and we'll see at least one battle in which they have success.

[Victor227]

The Dothraki's biggest weakness of course, above all other things (on land at least), is that they're led into battle by an unarmored instant kill-switch.If Khal Drogo dies, they split and either try to head home, or become independent bands of pillagers. At best, you'll have a situation where a lieutenant winds up with half the Khalassar when all's said and done.

Khal Drogo leads from the front, and wears no armor. Seriously. It's asking for disaster. Begging for it really. He's tough, but not superhuman. Even assuming he survives in the field, the sheer importance of him ensures that Varys or another schemer sort can easily take out the Dothraki through assassination at any time. In fact, that was probably Varys' plan to deal with the Dothraki should the invasion start proving wildly successful against all odds.

Houses in Westeros tend to diffuse the risks via heirs, lesser lords that can take command, that sort of thing. It makes them less viable targets, though they're still far more important than any modern field commander. The Dothraki though? Human kill-switch that will trigger a civil war and massive split in different directions.

The originally planned Dothraki invasion? It would work excellently... For Illyrio. He gets rid of the most powerful Khalassar and the other Dothraki fght eachother to fill the gap. The price of slaves plummets because of Drogo's mass-slaving, and the reduced Dothraki threat reduces the price of sellsword armies.

Naval invasions, especially involving huge numbers of troops like the Dothraki, across oceans, are not easy things. The Golden Company was born, bred for, and trained for discipline and cohesiveness, and they barely managed to get half their ships to Westeros at the agreed-upon rally point. And we're talking about the Dothraki here. They have a nigh-religious fear of the ocean, mixed with an extreme lack of tolerance for non-riders and non-fighters, and the only thing that gives them discipline is the presence of their leader.

Separate Drogo from his men through ships, and how many vessels do you lose just on account of Dothraki mutinying against sailors alone? His will is all that holds together those forty-thousand men. If a storm separates a number of their ships (and it will, you can't keep together a fleet like that, just look at Victarion Greyjoy and his much smaller force), not to mention splitting the fleet into several squadrons to better ensure success. Add that to the difficulty and disease of travelling with more horses than men and you'll have Drogo's more influential officers breaking ranks en masse. That's not even mentioning disease and supply issues that would result from the slightest delay.

As well, these aren't fighting crews that are bringing over the Dothraki, no amount of slaves could be sold for a navy to match that army. Any of the Westerosi fleets could smash the Dothraki, or at least split them up and confuse them further.

Even in the best case scenario, the Dothraki will land at multiple points, disoriented and confused, and lacking the central leadership that they rely on. They have extraordinary tactical inflexibility, and the 'outside' threat they provide would be a perfect rallying cry for Westeros.

The Dothraki are not Mongols. The Mongols were smarter, more disciplined, infinitely better equiped, took great pains to become experts in siege warfare, and most importantly, they never overreached on -nearly- the same scale as an intercontinental invasion.

Dany and Drogo would definitely not be able to rely on local help either. Dorne isn't Targaryen loyalist, it's Ellia and her children they loved, not Aerys. Highgarden as well bent the knee the instant the cause was lost and have neither personal connections to Dany, or anything to gain from her, as she's already married. They have the best lands as well, the Dothraki are going to be coming after them no matter what if for no other reason than to sustain the invasion.

Everyone else actively rebelled for the most-part, and the other great houses can expect nothing but death and destruction for their crimes. Especially if Dany comes back to Westeros at the head of a hungry, violent horde.

It wouldn't be long till the Dothraki were reduced to a group of elusive raiders that would burn the countryside and erode Robert's power and popularity, but not represent an actual threat to the lords of Westeros. It would also make for a perfect backdrop for Aegon to appear with the Golden Company, unify the south under him, and take the throne.

[tormund's beard]

When the Dothraki do have success in Westeros I'm sure we'll see a rush of people on the forum claiming GRRM has ruined the realness of the series. Let's push aside the warging, dragon riding, army of dead, and resurrections. "No way could a nomadic people without armor defeat these advanced armies in the west." :rolleyes:

no way unarmored cavalry with arakhs and shortbows (short not compund) can defeat a pike wall and archers army.

[joluoto]

I'm still convinced a Khalassar alone wouldn't do much more than pillage the place, win some battles, but ignore the castles (since they don't do sieges), and just call the Westerosi cowards, and then return home with their pillage and slaves (like the Dothraki always do). To make the Dothraki more than a temporary scourge you need to combine it with another army with people conducting sieges, and people interested in staying in Westeros, instead of just going home with the pillage.

[Frey Pie]

Look, you asked "Who in small cousel took the seriously?"

Barristan and Ned were against the assassination for moral reasons not tactical ones. Barristan is a Targ loyalist at heart and Ned just has too much class to assassinate a young girl like that.

The point is that that two out of three men with tactical knowledge werent bothered about the Dothraki, while the other one was just consumed by rage and paranoia of the Targs. The Dothraki may well do some damage in Westeros but only because George ignores the logic of the situation, or uses them the only way they should be used-as light cav supporting a larger more disciplined force of foot, archers and heavy