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The Prince of Ice

Examining Jorahs Treachery

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Recently been re-watching season 1 as well going through a re-read and it made me wonder how bad of a traitor Jorah really was.

1) Jorah informs to the small council that Dany marries Khal Drogo

2) Jorah also informs the small council that Dany is pregnate with Rhaego.

3)Helps the crown to orchestrate her assassination but holds to Varys warning to protect Daenerys.

Now this is all the treachery i can see that Jorah Mormont has committed so far if ive missed anything please point it out.

Now comes the hard part.

Jorah saved Dany from her assassins who were most likely hired by him.

I dont think this absolves Jorah of his past treacheries but does it absolve him of the 3rd?

This situation gets a little slippery IMO just because in my opinion Jorah did this for love of Dany possibly even just lust as Viserys pointed out.

What do you think on this subject?

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I think there is a slight mix up with your 3rd point:

Jorah was not offered a royal pardon to assassinate Dany. In fact, Varys warned him and ordered Jorah to keep her safe from the assassination.

It's the other way around in the show (or at least heavily implied to be the other way around), but that's the way it is in the books.

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If Jorah had hired the assassin himself, the assassin would probably have denounced him.

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I think there is a slight mix up with your 3rd point:

Jorah was not offered a royal pardon to assassinate Dany. In fact, Varys warned him and ordered Jorah to keep her safe from the assassination.

It's the other way around in the show (or at least heavily implied to be the other way around), but that's the way it is in the books.

Thank you for letting me know, will fix it right now.

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I actually don't think 1 & 2 were treasonous against Dany as, if I recall correctly, Jorah's sword was sworn to Viserys rather than Dany. I agree with Dornishman's Wife on 3.

I think were Jorah's behavior as Dany's sworn sword starts to get messy is that he continues to send reports about her to Westeros and keeps silent about it as well as his sexually harrassing behavior. It compromises trust. Can Dany trust a person to offer the best advice when his goals aren't exactly aligned with her own goals?

Still, I don't think Jorah was one of Dany's big treasons. I find him to be pretty icky and not suitable for a top advisor position. I think Dany did the right thing in removing him from that position but I don't seem him as an overtly treacherous person who committed a terrible treason against her.

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I actually don't think 1 & 2 were treasonous against Dany as, if I recall correctly, Jorah's sword was sworn to Viserys rather than Dany. I agree with Dornishman's Wife on 3.

I think were Jorah's behavior as Dany's sworn sword starts to get messy is that he continues to send reports about her to Westeros and keeps silent about it as well as his sexually harrassing behavior. It compromises trust. Can Dany trust a person to offer the best advice when his goals aren't exactly aligned with her own goals?

Still, I don't think Jorah was one of Dany's big treasons. I find him to be pretty icky and not suitable for a top advisor position. I think Dany did the right thing in removing him from that position but I don't seem him as an overtly treacherous person who committed a terrible treason against her.

Very well articulately written as always Dr. Pepper. I agree that he isnt as big a traitor as most believe and i agree it was smart for Dany to remove him.

Much respect Dr.Pepper.

I noticed my mistake with three havent gotten to that point in my re-read so got confused with the show my bad.

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It wasnt treachery. He never betrayed her. He wasnt loyal to her yet when he was informing on her.

Her dismissal of her best battle commander, personal guard, and counselor was an idiotic move and very much turned me against Dany. It didn't help that Jorah has always been one of my favorite characters.

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It wasnt treachery. He never betrayed her. He wasnt loyal to her yet when he was informing on her.

Her dismissal of her best battle commander, personal guard, and counselor was an idiotic move and very much turned me against Dany. It didn't help that Jorah has always been one of my favorite characters.

Was Jorah the best or was he just the best because there was no one else? The trust between Jorah and Dany was compromised. Even if we know that Jorah's intentions were good, Dany couldn't trust that his intentions were good. She gave him a chance to explain himself, and he didn't do it. In fact, he continued to compromise the trust by spouting off his romantic love for her and telling her that he continued to also report on her. He doesn't even deny when Dany tells him that he 'protected' her from all these people while making sure he was the only one she could trust. During that exchange, it's difficult to tell if Jorah is another Lord Walder who plays both sides to see which offers the better deal or whether he wants to marry her to become a king himself.

I think Dany has made some terrible decisions, but removing Jorah wasn't one of them based on what she knew at the time (and what she knew came from Jorah's own mouth).

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It wasnt treachery. He never betrayed her. He wasnt loyal to her yet when he was informing on her.

Her dismissal of her best battle commander, personal guard, and counselor was an idiotic move and very much turned me against Dany. It didn't help that Jorah has always been one of my favorite characters.

You seriously don't think Jorah was "loyal" to her during their stay in Qarth?

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I actually don't think 1 & 2 were treasonous against Dany as, if I recall correctly, Jorah's sword was sworn to Viserys rather than Dany. I agree with Dornishman's Wife on 3.

I think were Jorah's behavior as Dany's sworn sword starts to get messy is that he continues to send reports about her to Westeros and keeps silent about it as well as his sexually harrassing behavior. It compromises trust. Can Dany trust a person to offer the best advice when his goals aren't exactly aligned with her own goals?

Still, I don't think Jorah was one of Dany's big treasons. I find him to be pretty icky and not suitable for a top advisor position. I think Dany did the right thing in removing him from that position but I don't seem him as an overtly treacherous person who committed a terrible treason against her.

:cheers:

Jorah's original intent was to seek that royal pardon. He wanted to go home and try to reclaim his lands if i recall. He did, in fact, swear to Viserys. He did this, knowing full well that he was gonna sneak behind Viserys' back and leak information to Varys. And so he did just that. I think he stopped leaking information right around Qarth. Varys' information about Dany gets a little spotty after that point. But he still betrayed her trust and got a little too "friendly" with her which was uncool. Dany dismissed him due to this violation of trust. Instead of having him killed, she simply banished him. (which was even more painful for Jorah seeing how he was already banished.) I felt that this was Dany acknowledging Jorah's worth during the time he did spend with her. Instead of execution, he was sent away. But shes obviously disgusted by his leaking of information to the "Usurper's Dogs" and his forcefulness in her direction. Its a solid move on her part.

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You seriously don't think Jorah was "loyal" to her during their stay in Qarth?

No I seriously DO think Jorah was loyal to her in Carth. That's why he found her a ship as ordered and counseled her wisely again.

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"Tell him Jorah. Tell him he's mistaken. Tell him that we crossed the Dothraki Sea & the Red Waste together. Tell him!"

I would definitely be conflicted if I were Dany he had some major making up to do. I think it was best Dany do w/o out him for sometime how could he not think that his treason would catch up w/ him.

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I actually don't think 1 & 2 were treasonous against Dany as, if I recall correctly, Jorah's sword was sworn to Viserys rather than Dany. I agree with Dornishman's Wife on 3.

Well... It wasn't on Viserys' best interest either. And Dany was his ally and sister. I don't see how it wasn't treasonous against her as well.

Anyway, it's not really a matter of crime. He was a liar and a spy... And he never told Dany that. Why would she trust him? We know he loves her and wouldn't (so far) betray her. She should've killed him, actually, since he knows to much and could plot against her.

edit: btw... one of the few right things Dany did that wasn't total luck... Even though I think she should've killed him. But if she let him hang around... Then she would be completely useless

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Actually, in my very humble opinion keeping on sending reports is indeed a very smart thing to do. Because information flows two ways... if he keeps on telling Varys small things, just a little bit more detailed than the general rumours that are reaching Westeros by then to keep credibility but nothing that would be a strategic desaster or give real insight into their plans, he keeps getting answers from Varys. Most likely there's going to be something useful in that. Like knowing in advance when another assassin shows up for instance.

The honest way would have been to tell Dany at some point. But I guess the right moment just never came up, and it wouldn't have been easy to relay the whole story to her in some way she'd understand. So it's dishonesty, but neither disloyal nor betrayal. Unless Jorah's mind is ticking completely different than what Dany sees and tells us all the time before and he's really got another agenda.

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She should've killed him, actually, since he knows to much and could plot against her

Now this is interesting. I wonder if Jorah could find it in him to turn directly on her like that. He might...

Where would his information go though? Who would he turn to? Aegon's forces?

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No I seriously DO think Jorah was loyal to her in Carth. That's why he found her a ship as ordered and counseled her wisely again.

Jorah told Dany that he was still sending reports when they were in Qarth. The issue is that he didn't tell her about it. He took it upon himself to decide what information to share. It would be completely different if he told Dany that he had been sending reports or at least explained why controlling what information is shared would be a good thing, but he didn't. None of this means that Jorah wasn't at times very helpful to Dany's cause or that he didn't obey her orders. The point is that trust between the two is completely compromised. From Dany's point of view, Jorah did not exhibit unfailing loyal to her as a queen when he was questioned.

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Of course it was treason. And sending him away (or better yet execute him) was the right thing for all the wrong reasons. It wasn't the destroyed trust for which Dany banished him, but that he tried to explain himself instead of groveling. She would have kept him by her side if he did that. As I said, wrong reasons.

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Now this is interesting. I wonder if Jorah could find it in him to turn directly on her like that. He might...

Where would his information go though? Who would he turn to? Aegon's forces?

Any of her enemies. He knows her army, how she thinks, Selmy etc.

Not that he would do that. But Dany should not take any chances...

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Any of her enemies. He knows her army, how she thinks, Selmy etc.

Not that he would do that. But Dany should not take any chances...

If Jorah did that, it would only be to further his own interests. Where would those interests lie, is the question. Which of her enemies would benefit Jorah most?

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If Jorah did that, it would only be to further his own interests. Where would those interests lie, is the question. Which of her enemies would benefit Jorah most?

Stannis could probably give him his Bear Island back... Though I don't know how the she-bears would react to that. I suppose they would be OK. Mormonts are an old House and they're almost finished in the male line.

Though Stannis is not really concerned with dragons right now, I believe Mel would be very interested. The problem is how would Jorah reach them/know that.

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