The Targ fire RESISTANCE debate...

[Stannis Lives]

Oh Snap. The Starks bathed in hot water from the springs, under Winterfell. Jon Snow got it on, in a hot spring; when north of the Wall. You guys know what this means?!?!? All the Starks are hidden Targs! It is, now known! :cool4:

The text clearly says the water is "Scalding". I defined the word in my OP.

[Stannis Lives]

Looking back into version 54 of R+L thread it was everyone except Apple getting on his case

You guys are right. It was theguyfromthevale. I read one of her posts during the debate.

[Lala]

The text clearly says the water is "Scalding". I defined the word in my OP.

They filled her bath with hot water brought up from the kitchen and scented it with fragrant oils. The girl pulled the rough cotton tunic over Dany’s head and helped her into the tub. The water was scalding hot, but Daenerys did not flinch or cry out. She liked the heat. It made her feel clean. Besides, her brother had often told her that it was never too hot for a Targaryen. “Ours is the house of the dragon,” he would say. “The fire is in our blood.”

This is from Dany's POV which means that the water felt scalding hot to her. Not flinching or crying out is a sign of her high pain tolerance and self control, not her inability to feel the heat. It's the same as if in Jon's POV there was something like "The wind was frigid, but Jon did not flinch or cry out against the chilling gust"

[Djinn]

Daenerys washes her hair with wildfire, it is know!

[Drogon'sWrath]

This is what I get from the whole Targ fire resistance theory. I believe Martin when he says Dany at the end of GOT was a one time deal. At the end of GOT she was essentially fire proof for a short period. However, based on what happened with Drogon, I do think she at least has a bit of a resistance to fire, but if she ever takes a direct hit from Drogon, she's toast.

[WildBlood]

This is from Dany's POV which means that the water felt scalding hot to her. Not flinching or crying out is a sign of her high pain tolerance and self control, not her inability to feel the heat. It's the same as if in Jon's POV there was something like "The wind was frigid, but Jon did not flinch or cry out against the chilling gust"

It is all so clear now... Jon is resistant to ice!

[Dr. Pepper]

I think this list is being begged for. It's not an exhaustive list, but it will do in a pinch.

AGOT

Dany takes a hot water bath at Illyrio’s manse.

Catelyn always takes hot, steaming baths. The walls to her room were also hot to the touch.

Tyrion wants a hot bath at the Crossroads Inn.

Lord Commander Mormont takes hot baths.

Varys is pink after a bath, either indicating intense scrubbing or that the water was hot.

Sansa takes a hot bath many days after her father was killed.

Dany takes a scalding hot bath before the pyre.

ACOK

Arya and the captives were made to scrub in scalding hot water at Harrenhal.

Jaqen is in a steaming bath in the bathhouse at Harrenhal.

Sansa takes a scalding hot bath after she started menstruating.

Tyrion takes a hot bath before going to see Shae.

Hodor likes the hot pools.

ASOS

Jon wishes for a hot bath when he’s with Ygritte and the wildlings.

Tyrion wants a hot bath, “the hotter, the better”.

Jaime and Brienne take steaming baths at Harrenhal.

Jon thinks of the hot pools they used to bathe in at Winterfell.

AFFC

Cersei is in a hot, steaming bath when Tommen and Jaime come to speak to her

Edmure takes a hot bath when Jaime talks to him at the siege of Riverrun.

Taena and Cersei take hot baths.

Sweetrobin takes hot baths.

ADWD

Tyrion takes a hot bath at Illyrio’s manse.

Haldon Halfmaester thinks of the pleasure of hot baths once they come out of the fog of Sorrows.

Serving women bring hot water for Jeyne Poole’s (“Arya’s”) bath.

I agree completely with Lala above. Dany not flinching does not show an ability to resist heat. The fact that no one around Dany ever mentions that the water is unusually hot or comments on it (similar to how poor born never-had-a-hot-bath-in-his-life Dunk mentions it about Egg) indicates that the temperature of the water is Dany's perception, not that she is a reliable narrator.

I think the more interesting question is why Targaryens think they are fire or heat proof. I tried to explore some of that here.

[Ygrain]

The text clearly says the water is "Scalding". I defined the word in my OP.

Cat's PoV after the attempt on Bran:

Old Nan

undressed her and helped her into a

scalding

hot bath and washed the blood off her with a soft cloth.

ETA: Ninjaed by awesome Dr. Pepper more thoroughly than I might ever attempt :-)

[Lala]

It is all so clear now... Jon is resistant to ice!

It is known :bowdown:

I think this list is being begged for. It's not an exhaustive list, but it will do in a pinch.

I agree completely with Lala above. Dany not flinching does not show an ability to resist heat. The fact that no one around Dany ever mentions that the water is unusually hot or comments on it (similar to how poor born never-had-a-hot-bath-in-his-life Dunk mentions it about Egg) indicates that the temperature of the water is Dany's perception, not that she is a reliable narrator.

I think the more interesting question is why Targaryens think they are fire or heat proof. I tried to explore some of that here.

Thanks for the list :P

It's an interesting case of perception and belief - like the passage about Dany taking the bath states, she has been told numerous times that "dragons do not fear the heat" "dragons do not fear fire" and seems to have taken it to heart. By this logic, I assume that there have been instances where a Targaryen has, say, walked across hot coals and remained unhurt, but it's a case of mind over matter and a unique psychological phenomenon as opposed to any inherent genetic ability.

Cat's PoV after the attempt on Bran:

Old Nan undressed her and helped her into a

scalding

hot bath and washed the blood off her with a soft cloth.

ETA: Ninjaed by awesome Dr. Pepper more thoroughly than I might ever attempt :-)

So now we all know that Cat is a secret Targ which makes all of the Stark children Targs :bang:

[Stannis Lives]

It is all so clear now... Jon is resistant to ice!

No reason for mocking. The bath argument was the least important. This is clearly a debatable issue and contrary to popular belief, there is no GRRM statement to the contrary. In fact, his statement from my OP is very ambiguous and open to interpretation.

[Dr. Pepper]

Cat's PoV after the attempt on Bran:

Old Nan

undressed her and helped her into a

scalding

hot bath and washed the blood off her with a soft cloth.

ETA: Ninjaed by awesome Dr. Pepper more thoroughly than I might ever attempt :-)

Cat has the excuse of close proximity by proxy to Targs. Her mother was a Whent and a Whent was on the KG so basically they are all related. ;)

[Ygrain]

A little look on the pit scene:

Drogon roared. The sound filled the pit. A furnace wind engulfed her.

Her clothes are not burning

Drogon roared full in her face, his breath hot enough to blister skin.

Her clothes are not burning

She scrabbled in the sand, pushing against the pitmaster’s corpse, and her fingers brushed against the handle of his whip. Touching it made her feel braver. The leather was warm, alive.

Her clothes are not burning, and neither is the pitmaster’s corpse, clothes or whip.

Dany swung the lash at his scaled belly, back and forth until her arm began to ache. His long serpentine neck bent like an archer’s bow. With a hisssssss, he spat black fire down at her. Dany darted underneath the flames, swinging the whip and shouting, “No, no, no. Get DOWN!” His answering roar was full of fear and fury, full of pain. His wings beat once, twice …

Her clothes are still not burning, i.e. she never got a direct hit and the flame was not near her body to make the cloth reach its ignition temperature. It is probably the moment when the tips of her hair (long and flowing behind her as she darted), ignited, not necessarily from direct touch with flame. Another option as her hair might have caught fire would be flame from the arrows stuck in Drogon as their shaftes ignited.

[Kittykatknits]

I'm not sure why there is confusion on this:

Shaw: Are all the Targaryans immune to fire?

Martin: No, no Targaryans are immune to fire. The thing with Dany and the dragons, that was just a one-time magical event, very special and unique. The Targaryans can tolerate a bit more than most ordinary people, they like really hot baths and things like that, but that doesn't mean they're totally immune to fire, no. Dragons, on the other hand, are pretty much immune to fire.

They are not immune to fire, the dragons in Game where a one-time event. They can tolerate a bit more heat than most. The two key phrases in this here are "a bit more" and "things like that". A bit more heat is a big stretch then either fire immunity or partial fire immunity. As to things like hot baths, that would be hot tea, hot soup, hot coffee, or perhaps a fresh from the oven casserole dish. Martin's playing with the idea of Targs and fire immunity here. He's bringing up a rather inane example to show the level of fire or heat immunity the Targs have, which is none.

Also, how would the idea of partial fire immunity work? You only get burned over 70% of your body instead? Can't figure this one out.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

If it is the case that Dany has a certain "resistance" to fire, I'm inclined to think it's because of whatever magic was worked on Drogo's funeral pyre - i.e. Dany's symbolic marriage and new identity as the "bride of fire" than anything having to do with her Targaryen heritage. Essentially, if Dany were to have a child, that child would be no more immune to fire than Bran or Rickon.

So just to be clear, Starks and other skinchangers can pass that "ability" down through generations (certainly some don't receive the gift though), but Targaryens can't pass any sort of magical ability down through their generations at all?

Dragons are immune to fire. Blood of the Dragon would seem to indicate that people that possess that heritage could potentially gain some sort of resistance to fire or heat. Certainly there are enough examples of Targaryens thinking that they could somehow use fire to do something wonderous, from drinking the Wildfyre, to Summerhall, to Aerys thinking he could burn down the whole city and rise from the ashes as a dragon.

It appears to me that somewhere in their history, it was believed that "Dragons" of the Valyrians had some sort of relationship to dragons and fire. Maybe instead of projecting themselves into the dragons, they can somehow share a dragon's fire immunity/resistance when in their presence.

Is it not possible that this mirrors Starks and other "wargs" abilities?

[Lala]

So just to be clear, Starks and other skinchangers can pass that "ability" down through generations (certainly some don't receive the gift though), but Targaryens can't pass any sort of magical ability down through their generations at all?

Dragons are immune to fire. Blood of the Dragon would seem to indicate that people that possess that heritage could potentially gain some sort of resistance to fire or heat. Certainly there are enough examples of Targaryens thinking that they could somehow use fire to do something wonderous, from drinking the Wildfyre, to Summerhall, to Aerys thinking he could burn down the whole city and rise from the ashes as a dragon.

It appears to me that somewhere in their history, it was believed that "Dragons" of the Valyrians had some sort of relationship to dragons and fire. Maybe instead of projecting themselves into the dragons, they can somehow share a dragon's fire immunity/resistance when in their presence.

Is it not possible that this mirrors Starks and other "wargs" abilities?

You're misinterpreting my post. My argument is that if Dany has ever developed "fire resistance super powahz" at any point in her life, I think it is much more likely that it is a result of the magic that is worked on Drogo's funeral pyre - i.e. she becomes "the bride of fire." This would be a trait unique to Dany and irrelevant to her genetic makeup - meaning it has nothing to do with her Targaryen heritage and everything to do with the stars simply aligning. Arguing that this ability would then pass down to her children is like saying that because Thoros can resurrect the dead because of his priesthood to Rh'llor that all of Thoros' theoretical children would have the same ability.

And I don't even agree that Dany is fire-resistant - there's some magic at work, but I highly doubt that she can tolerate dragonfire any more than any other character.

[Dr. Pepper]

So just to be clear, Starks and other skinchangers can pass that "ability" down through generations (certainly some don't receive the gift though), but Targaryens can't pass any sort of magical ability down through their generations at all?

Dragons are immune to fire. Blood of the Dragon would seem to indicate that people that possess that heritage could potentially gain some sort of resistance to fire or heat. Certainly there are enough examples of Targaryens thinking that they could somehow use fire to do something wonderous, from drinking the Wildfyre, to Summerhall, to Aerys thinking he could burn down the whole city and rise from the ashes as a dragon.

It appears to me that somewhere in their history, it was believed that "Dragons" of the Valyrians had some sort of relationship to dragons and fire. Maybe instead of projecting themselves into the dragons, they can somehow share a dragon's fire immunity/resistance when in their presence.

Is it not possible that this mirrors Starks and other "wargs" abilities?

No one has said this. The Targaryens obviously do have a magical ability that is passed down - prophetic dreaming. They just don't happen to be immune to heat or fire, same as the Starks aren't immune to cold and ice.

[Ygrain]

So just to be clear, Starks and other skinchangers can pass that "ability" down through generations (certainly some don't receive the gift though), but Targaryens can't pass any sort of magical ability down through their generations at all?

Dragons are immune to fire. Blood of the Dragon would seem to indicate that people that possess that heritage could potentially gain some sort of resistance to fire or heat. Certainly there are enough examples of Targaryens thinking that they could somehow use fire to do something wonderous, from drinking the Wildfyre, to Summerhall, to Aerys thinking he could burn down the whole city and rise from the ashes as a dragon.

It appears to me that somewhere in their history, it was believed that "Dragons" of the Valyrians had some sort of relationship to dragons and fire. Maybe instead of projecting themselves into the dragons, they can somehow share a dragon's fire immunity/resistance when in their presence.

Is it not possible that this mirrors Starks and other "wargs" abilities?

Well, they do pass a magic ability down generations - their prophetic dreams. As for their special relationship to fire, the problem is that the present-day Targs (and perhaps generally the post-Valyrian ones) have forgotten much of their heritage - take their words, Fire and Blood, which seem to be the actual recipe for hatching dragons - and what they do remember is shrouded in legends. It is said that Valyrians used magic to bind dragons to their will; they could have used magic for fireproofness, as well, but it doesn't mean that it was a trait passed down by bloodlines.

ETA: Peppered again :D

[Stannis Lives]

I'm not sure why there is confusion on this:

Shaw: Are all the Targaryans immune to fire?

Martin: No, no Targaryans are immune to fire. The thing with Dany and the dragons, that was just a one-time magical event, very special and unique. The Targaryans can tolerate a bit more than most ordinary people, they like really hot baths and things like that, but that doesn't mean they're totally immune to fire, no. Dragons, on the other hand, are pretty much immune to fire.

Far from definitive. He's being coy. If they truly aren't resistant to some types of fire in some types of situation then I think there is a blatant flaw in his writing in terms of the Targs ability to ride dragons who breath stone-melting fire with extremely long necks that can burn 360 degrees. The first time a dragon burned up a sheep ten feet away, the rider would die. I will never back down from that position. Maybe they can tolerate more heat and so only die in direct blasts, but then that is fire resistant as compared to others.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

No one has said this. The Targaryens obviously do have a magical ability that is passed down - prophetic dreaming. They just don't happen to be immune to heat or fire, same as the Starks aren't immune to cold and ice.

So, what's with all the Targaryens killing themselves with fire, thinking they'd be immune somehow? There's more to this story than people are admitting here.

Clearly they all aren't immune to fire, I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying is that perhaps there's something in their heritage involving magic around fire and dragons. Most likely, the ability to birth them, as we witnessed with Dany.

As I said, my theory is that their ability is to gain fire-resistance when in the presence of dragons IF and only if, that person received the gift. Much like not all Starks are Greenseers, but Bran is.

That's why Summerhall failed, because the Targ did not have the gift that Dany has.

[Lala]

Far from definitive. He's being coy. If they truly aren't resistant to some types of fire in some types of situation then I think there is a blatant flaw in his writing in terms of the Targs ability to ride dragons who breath stone-melting fire with extremely long necks that can burn 360 degrees. The first time a dragon burned up a sheep ten feet away, the rider would die. I will never back down from that position. Maybe they can tolerate more heat and so only die in direct blasts, but then that is fire resistant as compared to others.

Magic would help the ancient Targs with that. I'm fairly certain that if Moqorro or say, Melisandre, were to be able to somehow ride a dragon, they would be perfectly capable of keeping themselves from burning with the use of spells.

Well, they do pass a magic ability down generations - their prophetic dreams. As for their special relationship to fire, the problem is that the present-day Targs (and perhaps generally the post-Valyrian ones) have forgotten much of their heritage - take their words, Fire and Blood, which seem to be the actual recipe for hatching dragons - and what they do remember is shrouded in legends. It is said that Valyrians used magic to bind dragons to their will; they could have used magic for fireproofness, as well, but it doesn't mean that it was a trait passed down by bloodlines.

ETA: Peppered again :D