The Targ fire RESISTANCE debate...

[TheTowerOfJoy]

No one has said this. The Targaryens obviously do have a magical ability that is passed down - prophetic dreaming. They just don't happen to be immune to heat or fire, same as the Starks aren't immune to cold and ice.

We don't know that Viserys had that gift, but we do know Dany had that gift. Just like I don't believe Robb is a Greenseer.

[Stannis Lives]

So just to be clear, Starks and other skinchangers can pass that "ability" down through generations (certainly some don't receive the gift though), but Targaryens can't pass any sort of magical ability down through their generations at all?

Dragons are immune to fire. Blood of the Dragon would seem to indicate that people that possess that heritage could potentially gain some sort of resistance to fire or heat. Certainly there are enough examples of Targaryens thinking that they could somehow use fire to do something wonderous, from drinking the Wildfyre, to Summerhall, to Aerys thinking he could burn down the whole city and rise from the ashes as a dragon.

It appears to me that somewhere in their history, it was believed that "Dragons" of the Valyrians had some sort of relationship to dragons and fire. Maybe instead of projecting themselves into the dragons, they can somehow share a dragon's fire immunity/resistance when in their presence.

Is it not possible that this mirrors Starks and other "wargs" abilities?

I'm with you on this. I think the old Targs (maybe only certain bloodlines of old Valyria) had fire resistance. I still believe you need fire resistance to be anywhere near fire breathing dragons. I do think Aegon had it and his descendants clearly THOUGHT they had it. Not coicidentally, dragons became a much more rare occurrence and there was never really another targ dragon rider. They also diluted their bloodline, especially when Daeron married Martell, creating an entire line of 50% dornish Targs. I do think that the magic is returning. The starks are regaining Warg ability. Greenseers are rising again. Dragons are back. And so is a true Targ and true blood of the dragon.

[WildBlood]

Far from definitive. He's being coy. If they truly aren't resistant to some types of fire in some types of situation then I think there is a blatant flaw in his writing in terms of the Targs ability to ride dragons who breath stone-melting fire with extremely long necks that can burn 360 degrees. The first time a dragon burned up a sheep ten feet away, the rider would die. I will never back down from that position. Maybe they can tolerate more heat and so only die in direct blasts, but then that is fire resistant as compared to others.

The fact that the pitmaster did not burn is proof against your theory.

Or is the pitmaster a secret targ? :idea: :smug:

[Stannis Lives]

Magic would help the ancient Targs with that. I'm fairly certain that if Moqorro or say, Melisandre, were to be able to somehow ride a dragon, they would be perfectly capable of keeping themselves from burning with the use of spells.

Possible. We don't know enough. This could explain it though.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

If they truly aren't resistant to some types of fire in some types of situation then I think there is a blatant flaw in his writing in terms of the Targs ability to ride dragons who breath stone-melting fire with extremely long necks that can burn 360 degrees. The first time a dragon burned up a sheep ten feet away, the rider would die. I will never back down from that position.

You are absolutely right of course. It's why from WWI onwards, modern armies have only used Targs in their flamethrower detachments. It's why only Targs are allowed to be blacksmiths. It's why these guys are all secret Targs.

Or alternatively of course, you may just have no idea how fire, jets and heat dispersion work.

[Ygrain]

The fact that the pitmaster did not burn is proof against your theory.

Or is the pitmaster a secret targ? :idea: :smug:

Of course he is. And his whip is made from fire-resistant Targ hide.

ETA: Dunno what his clothes are made of, or Dany's for that matter - I hear that azbest is not the material of choice for underwear.

[Lala]

Of course he is. And his whip is made from fire-resistant Targ hide.

Since Dany's clothes didn't burn either, they are also made from fire-resistant Targ hide :eek:

Everything makes sense now - that's why Viserys had to die.

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

I think we can all agree that the Starks have a hereditary WARG ability that is passed down sporadically. Why is it so crazy to believe that descendants of conquerors WHO RODE DRAGONS also had warg abilities as well as other magical properties such as fire resistance?

<snip>

Stark is to warg as Targaryen is to dragon rider.

The ability to ride and control a dragon is the special ability associated with House Targaryen.

[Stannis Lives]

You are absolutely right of course. It's why from WWI onwards, modern armies have only used Targs in their flamethrower detachments. It's why only Targs are allowed to be blacksmiths. It's why these guys are all secret Targs.

Or alternatively of course, you may just have no idea how heat works.

You are going to compare flamethrowers that shoot out concentrated blasts of gasoline to a living fire breathing dragon blasting magically hot flame all over the place with someone sitting on their back? Are you kidding me? Fire hot enough to melt rock, would kill you from 10 feet.

[Dr. Pepper]

So, what's with all the Targaryens killing themselves with fire, thinking they'd be immune somehow? There's more to this story than people are admitting here.

Clearly they all aren't immune to fire, I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying is that perhaps there's something in their heritage involving magic around fire and dragons. Most likely, the ability to birth them, as we witnessed with Dany.

As I said, my theory is that their ability is to gain fire-resistance when in the presence of dragons IF and only if, that person received the gift. Much like not all Starks are Greenseers, but Bran is.

That's why Summerhall failed, because the Targ did not have the gift that Dany has.

None of them are immune to fire. The author has stated definitively that they aren't immune to fire. He even used CAPS to get the point across (the relevant link to the quote is on earlier pages and I think provided by The Dornishman's Wife).

In reference to the bolded above, I think this is the interestign question. When and why did Targs decide they could drink wildfire and get molten crowns with no consequences? I tried to address this point in another thread a while back. I'll paste what I had to say about it.

I think the premise of the discussion could be interesting and is not at all controversial. What is the point of introducing the idea of Targaryen fire immunity? Early in the thread I wrote a small bit about Maester Thomax's book, Dragonkin. This book is about the history of House Targaryen, specifically how they went from a Varlyrian family in exile to one who obtained a status on par with the gods in Westeros. The book title also includes a consideration on the life and death of dragons.

Here is the entire title of the book: Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons.

The reason this topic becomes controversial is because some want to argue that Targaryens are in fact immune or resistant to heat and fire, despite what the text and the author tells us. Part of their god-like status in Westeros included such things as an immunity or resistance to heat and fire or to illness, which were things they claimed that no other had. In the D&E novels, we see that Egg and Dunk fully buy into this propaganda. We know from the text this propaganda isn't true.

Until there is agreement that this propaganda isn't true, we can't really get to what the point is in introducing the idea of Targaryen fire/heat immunity/tolerance/resistance. In the books, Dany is uncomfortable in the heat, she is burned, she is never touched by dragonfire, and her baths are not hot enough to make people suspicious. The Targaryens are a family who reached too high in their quest for power and eventually they all got burnt, whether metaphorically or physically. The Lannisters are another such family who we are witnessing reaching too far and getting burnt. Half of what Tywin says about the Lannisters echoes a lot of what Viserys had to say about the Targaryens.

I think the title of Thomax's book is exactly the point of introducing the idea that Targaryens thought themselves so special that they were immune to things like heat and illness.

We don't know that Viserys had that gift, but we do know Dany had that gift. Just like I don't believe Robb is a Greenseer.

Well, of course Robb isn't a greenseer. No one has said he is. He was a warg, though. Also, while Dany experienced a miraculous fireproof event with the pyre, she has not proven to have that gift again. She had burned hands in her last chapter.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Well, they do pass a magic ability down generations - their prophetic dreams. As for their special relationship to fire, the problem is that the present-day Targs (and perhaps generally the post-Valyrian ones) have forgotten much of their heritage - take their words, Fire and Blood, which seem to be the actual recipe for hatching dragons - and what they do remember is shrouded in legends. It is said that Valyrians used magic to bind dragons to their will; they could have used magic for fireproofness, as well, but it doesn't mean that it was a trait passed down by bloodlines.

ETA: Peppered again :D

I think it's more than just blood. I think it's King's Blood, which is why Melisandre is able to do her magic with it. The question is what constitutes King's Blood. Personally, I think it's magical blood. Stannis and Robert were both distant Targ relatives so there's some "blood of the dragon" within them theoretically, and then the Starks seem to have "Blood of the First Men" or some sort of relation to the Children of the Forests abilities.

[WildBlood]

I am going to go along with GRRM on this. Of course he is going to give ambiguous answers, the series isn't finished yet. But he has been EXTREMELY adamant that there is no immunity or resistance. And it is a fantasy novel for christ sakes, so I am not buying into the burning a sheep from 10 ft away. If you wanna get scientifical then there shouldn't be any effen dragons to begin with.

[Ygrain]

I think it's more than just blood. I think it's King's Blood, which is why Melisandre is able to do her magic with it. The question is what constitutes King's Blood. Personally, I think it's magical blood. Stannis and Robert were both distant Targ relatives so there's some "blood of the dragon" within them theoretically, and then the Starks seem to have "Blood of the First Men" or some sort of relation to the Children of the Forests abilities.

Quite probably - in the pyre, the magical blood would have been provided by MMD.

[Dr. Pepper]

Far from definitive. He's being coy. If they truly aren't resistant to some types of fire in some types of situation then I think there is a blatant flaw in his writing in terms of the Targs ability to ride dragons who breath stone-melting fire with extremely long necks that can burn 360 degrees. The first time a dragon burned up a sheep ten feet away, the rider would die. I will never back down from that position. Maybe they can tolerate more heat and so only die in direct blasts, but then that is fire resistant as compared to others.

This is fantasy. Some things you have to just agree that the author is making fantastical shit up. It's unrealistic that Tyrion - a dwarf who can barely climb stairs because his legs bother him so much - can safely vault off a high ledge with no problem, but it happens in Martin's story. In Martin's story, Valyrians had no problems riding on dragons and their dragons don't bathe them in flames when they are on their back.

Let's also be very clear. Balerion was a huge, old dragon when he melted stones. Drogo is a small, young dragon. He's not melting any stones nor is the heat from his flames enough to burn up everything around. Also note, Viserion and Rhaegal didn't manage to melt the steel on the bars to the dungeon, nor melt the stone of the pyramids.

[Stannis Lives]

I am going to go along with GRRM on this. Of course he is going to give ambiguous answers, the series isn't finished yet. But he has been EXTREMELY adamant that there is no immunity or resistance. And it is a fantasy novel for christ sakes, so I am not buying into the burning a sheep from 10 ft away. If you wanna get scientifical then there shouldn't be any effen dragons to begin with.

Where does he "extremely adamant(ly)" say that there is no resistance?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

None of them are immune to fire. The author has stated definitively that they aren't immune to fire. He even used CAPS to get the point across (the relevant link to the quote is on earlier pages and I think provided by The Dornishman's Wife).

In reference to the bolded above, I think this is the interestign question. When and why did Targs decide they could drink wildfire and get molten crowns with no consequences? I tried to address this point in another thread a while back. I'll paste what I had to say about it.

Well, of course Robb isn't a greenseer. No one has said he is. He was a warg, though. Also, while Dany experienced a miraculous fireproof event with the pyre, she has not proven to have that gift again. She had burned hands in her last chapter.

Let me make it clear that I am not aruing that Targs or even Dany are Fire PROOF. Could Dany be fire resistant, or less affected by fire than most would be? (ie blistered when others would have ignited, burnt hands when others would have been incinerated, etc...) I don't know for sure, but the text seems to indicate that is the case, or that at the very least, Dany believes it to be the case.

Not all Starks are necessarily Wargs/Greenseers, just like not all Targs are necessarily Dragon Riders. For instance, it doesn't appear (though certainly this could change in later books) that Sansa has any sort of warging ability whatsoever.

It appears to me, however, that the red comet signaled whatever magic laid dormant for hundreds of years to re-ignite. And I believe that magic lies within the blood of certain lines. The Targaryens and the Starks being the most obvious examples of which.

And as I said, when Melisandre is using "King's Blood", I think what she's actually using is hereditary magical blood.

[Dr. Pepper]

Where does he "extremely adamant(ly)" say that there is no resistance?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/93375-the-targ-fire-resistance-debate/#entry4750688

[Stannis Lives]

http://asoiaf.wester...e/#entry4750688

Don't get it. That's the quote from my OP

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I am going to go along with GRRM on this. Of course he is going to give ambiguous answers, the series isn't finished yet. But he has been EXTREMELY adamant that there is no immunity or resistance. And it is a fantasy novel for christ sakes, so I am not buying into the burning a sheep from 10 ft away. If you wanna get scientifical then there shouldn't be any effen dragons to begin with.

I don't personally think that's what GRRM said, he merely said that not all Targs are immune to fire all the time. That doesn't mean that some special Targs under special circumstances aren't immune/resistant to fire. Clearly Dany was, and clearly some Targs believed they are in some way (my belief is because back in their ancient history at least some of them were).

Perhaps they have to be in the presence of dragons, perhaps they have to make a blood sacrifice, or perhaps it's all just a load of crap, who knows, but I don't think GRRM's statement says that.

[Groat]

Ok, here are the relevant quotes for the Dany Fighting Pit scene. They don't really prove much other than the situation with Dany and fire is ambiguous.

The same expression used for both Dany and Quentyn:

Drogon roared. The sound filled the pit. A furnace wind engulfed her.

Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal. When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.

Ser Barristan:

Her hair was aflame. She had the whip in her hand and she was shouting, then she was on the dragon’s back, flying.

The Green Grace and Ser Barristan:

Even your own young queen, fair Daenerys who called herself the Mother of Dragons … we saw her burning, that day in the pit … even she was not safe from the dragon’s wroth.”

“Her Grace is not … she …”

“… is dead. May the gods grant her sweet sleep.” Tears glistened behind her veils.

“Let her dragons die as well.”

Daenerys:

Only the birth of her dragons amidst the fire and smoke of Khal Drogo’s funeral pyre had spared Dany herself from being dragged back to Vaes Dothrak to live out the remainder of her days amongst the crones of the dosh khaleen.

The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak’s Pit. That much she could recall, though much of what followed was a haze.

My personal opinion is the author has made this very ambiguous for a purpose. From the quotes above, however, we can see this is not a clear, cut and dry case.