Heresy 63

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 63, this week’s edition of the fast moving and eclectic thread which takes a wider look at what’s really going on in the Song of Ice and Fire.

Those who don’t know us are sometimes put off by the speed with which the thread moves, and its longevity, but fear not this is a rolling conversation in which anyone can join in at any time.

We are heretics chiefly because we challenge the popular orthodoxy that the Others are the ultimate evil enemy who will eventually be defeated by the Starks and the Targaryen dragons. This is the Song of Ice and Fire; and the Otherlanders represent only one side of that conflict in which there is an equally dangerous threat posed by Fire.

Thus we question popular assumptions that the Others are evil incarnate, and that the Children of the Forest are the good guys who once fought alongside the First Men and will teach Bran how to defeat the Others. There is, let us assert at once, not a single scrap of evidence in the books that the Children and the First Men ever fought shoulder to shoulder against anybody, while the weirwood faces of the white walkers in the show point to a connection so far only hinted at by GRRM. On the contrary the Children abandoned Men to their fate in the Long Night and the First Men returned the compliment by abandoning the Children and breaking the Pact when the Andals came to Westeros. In short we suspect they are not the cuddly tree-huggers they pretend and as a greenseer Bran has been secured by them not to save Westeros but to provide them with a window into the realms of men.

We also question that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai and destined to be a dragon rider and we laugh at the timelines which were set out at the start of the series and have since contracted dramatically in subsequent books.

Instead, prompted by the clues which litter the text we look at the Celtic and Norse mythological sources which underpin the magic, and we try to understand the real nature of the protagonists. GRRM has likened the Others to the Sidhe made of ice – a point graphically illustrated in the current HBO version, which in turn exactly mirrors what we’ve established of Mel, Moqorro and Victarion, revealing all three as being Fire made flesh - exactly equal to and opposite those protagonists of Ice made Flesh – the white walkers with their weirwood faces.

And then there’s the Wall itself, which some of us believe is not a defensive structure at all but is the hinge or boundary between the Realms of Men and the magic Otherlands beyond. It was raised and maintained by great (and dark) magic, and is not improbably the cause of the Long Night. It is, according to Ygritte, made of blood. Thus we suspect that like the Berlin Wall, the Wall must come down to achieve a resolution of the conflict and restore the balance of the seasons and everything else, for to quote Janet Clouston: “Blood built it, Blood stopped the building of it, and Blood will bring it down”

In doing that, Jon may indeed be destined to bridle the Ice, as King of Winter, while Danaerys Targaryen, may have to “go back” – to where the Targaryens and their dragons came from - into the smoke and salt of the Smoking Sea of Valyria in order to sort out the Fire.

All of these theories are just that and matters of controversy rather tenets of faith. We think we’re reaching a better understanding of what’s really going on, but as heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes this thread cycle so much fun, but we do very firmly reckon that the Starks’ role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed and that the children are not so cuddly as they pretend.

We’ve long since given up providing links to previous heresies since it moves so damn quickly, but in honour of the occasion Heresy 50 contained a series of essays looking at a number of topics in more detail.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84200-heresy-50/

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction, but if you’re new, or simply intimidated by the sheer scale of it all, not to mention the astonishing speed with which it moves, and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

All that we ask as ever is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Black Crow]

Just to kick off, apropos Craster’s sons:

From a heretical perspective I found this comment in his latest interview interesting:

Not only in Ice and Fire — we also did this bit in the Wild Cards series, the whole thing of the child solider is a fascinating construct. We have this picture of children [as] so sweet and innocent. I think some of the recent history in Africa and some of the longer history have shown that under the right circumstances, they can become just as dangerous as men, and in some ways more dangerous. On some level, it’s almost a game to them.

It's something which has always struck me about Craster's sons. Look again at the behaviour of the white walkers in the AGoT prologue and consider them as still children inside. Just to follow through a little on this one we also have Old Nan's reference to the white walkers taking babies to feed to their undead servants and the bit about wildling women lying with them to produce terrible half-human children. Add Craster's sons into the mix and we have a definite pattern of the blue-eyed lot taking children.

Now it could be, as some argue, that they are simply draining the life out of them, but if we take the assertion that the current lot are Craster's sons and set it alongside the part of the interview quoted, I still argue that what they are doing is kidnapping human children to turn them into child soldiers - they just don't look like children.

GRRM does like his layered meanings, hence the ambiguity over Varys' little birds and his assertion that he's doing it for the children. Whatever further hidden meaning there might be, Varys' birds are, arguably, child soldiers in exactly the sense discussed in that interview and I think it would be appropriately ironic for the so-called children of the forest to also employ the children of men as their soldiers.

[tofagerl]

Just read the part in '62 about the myths changing with the times. It reminds me a lot of Supply Side Jesus. total non sequiter of course, but it does show that even with written sources (though suspect) we tweak the ancient "truths" to fit to our current culture and beliefs.

Edit: although it's not quite as poignant as Pilate executing Jesus with an electric chair...

[tofagerl]

Re: Varys' birds. Do you think he needs more because at a certain age he doesn't use them anymore? What happens to the old birds, does he just throw them on the street in flea bottom? That sounds dangerous. But he can't be killing them, that's not his nature. (IMO)

[wolfmaid7]

I had asked these questions somewhere around pg 16+ concerning the continuity of "Craster's boys". If indeed the WW's are some incarnation of Craster's babies,then i have a few observations.

Firstly, based on the above, WW's don't have a very long lifespan compared to the COTF, if the current batch is "Craster's boys" then what became of the batch before?

I can see how having too much of them roaming around can be counter to the balance,but again if their existence is generational depending on the man that does the sacrifice what happens to them now that Craster is gone?

[Joe Pine]

Re: Varys' birds. Do you think he needs more because at a certain age he doesn't use them anymore? What happens to the old birds, does he just throw them on the street in flea bottom? That sounds dangerous. But he can't be killing them, that's not his nature. (IMO)

Slave markets in the free cities? The silent orders of the church of seven?

No idea, but a good question.

[avernite]

First post, longtime lurker, yadda yadda. :)

One thing I have always had a hard time accepting as a principle used in these theories is the idea of fire being equally bad as ice, and Moqorro/Melisandre being essentially the same as the white walkers. I assume this discussion has happened before, so can someone guide me to it?

In the cold shadow of the wall, and throughout Westeros (save Dorne) the cold, not heat, threatens men. The snow in the riverlands signals effective disaster, the Eyrie has to be evacuated, and the North is frozen in. From Jaime's response to the snow (or lack of it), the Westerlanders face snow, too. Men, in our world at least, stem from a hot, not cold, environment.

Now, Valyria serves as a counterpoint, in a sense, save for a story-structural point: noone in the story faces that deadly heat. The cold has been directly with us since book 1. Fire saved Daenerys, while the cold threatens Jon. The knights of summer are the weak who never knew hardship. etcetera.

Aside from this, there's also the demonic aspects; if indeed the Sidhe of Ice and of Fire are equal, why then does Melisandre walk freely among men, while an Other would always be easy enough to spot (and would usually kill you)? Melisandres presence melts the Wall, aye, but that's already a few steps beyond what men appreciate. Why would these fire demons be so much free-er, so much more capable of hiding? Are men themselves, then, half-demons of fire?

[7V3N]

First post, longtime lurker, yadda yadda. :)

One thing I have always had a hard time accepting as a principle used in these theories is the idea of fire being equally bad as ice, and Moqorro/Melisandre being essentially the same as the white walkers. I assume this discussion has happened before, so can someone guide me to it?

In the cold shadow of the wall, and throughout Westeros (save Dorne) the cold, not heat, threatens men. The snow in the riverlands signals effective disaster, the Eyrie has to be evacuated, and the North is frozen in. From Jaime's response to the snow (or lack of it), the Westerlanders face snow, too. Men, in our world at least, stem from a hot, not cold, environment.

Now, Valyria serves as a counterpoint, in a sense, save for a story-structural point: noone in the story faces that deadly heat. The cold has been directly with us since book 1. Fire saved Daenerys, while the cold threatens Jon. The knights of summer are the weak who never knew hardship. etcetera.

Aside from this, there's also the demonic aspects; if indeed the Sidhe of Ice and of Fire are equal, why then does Melisandre walk freely among men, while an Other would always be easy enough to spot (and would usually kill you)? Melisandres presence melts the Wall, aye, but that's already a few steps beyond what men appreciate. Why would these fire demons be so much free-er, so much more capable of hiding? Are men themselves, then, half-demons of fire?

In A Sworn Sword there is an awful drought throughout Westeros. We are simply seeing a time where ice threatens Westeros--where we have an awful Winter rather than Summer. IMO the drought was worse than what we have seen of Winter, with the exception of the wights.

[tofagerl]

Well... Winter starts at the very last pages of DwD, so...

[Frey family reunion]

Two other characters that may be pulling a Craster in other parts of Westeros (granted complete speculation):

1. Howland Reed. In another thread someone pointed out that the name of Howland Reed's wife as listed in the appendix of one of the books was Jyana. Awfully similar to Lyanna whom many believe was the mystery knight that stood up for Howland at the Harrenhal tournament. Now I can see Howland naming a daughter in honor of Lyanna, is it possible that Jyana could be both a daughter and a wife?

2. Oberyn Martell. Oberyn is a pretty interesting character. He is one of the few characters that has links to both the North and the South. He was fostered with House Qorgyle when he was a child. There is a good chance that a member of that household was the same Qorgyle that later became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch before Jeor Mormont. Qorgyle was the Lord Commander when Mance deserted the Night's Watch. Remember what song Mance was playing when Jon first met him? The Dornishman's Wife.

Anyway, it is interesting that Oberyn is said to have bastards all over Dorne and the Free Cities but they are all known to be female. It is even stated that he has never been known to have a male child. Could something be happening to the boys a la Craster's brood?

[Lord Ravenstark]

Re: Varys' birds. Do you think he needs more because at a certain age he doesn't use them anymore? What happens to the old birds, does he just throw them on the street in flea bottom? That sounds dangerous. But he can't be killing them, that's not his nature. (IMO)

He can cut their tongues...

[Lockdown20]

Well I always thought the Jyana thing was strange too, and when you think about it the crannogmen would have been a rather small group of people and they stay secluded, so you would have to imagine that there may be some inbreeding going on there for them to have survived so long in such a manner. But of course there is no textual evidence of such so :dunno:

Just a random thought on Crasters boys, what if they simply don't die, they just loose their ice form? We know that Bran skinchanges Hodor rather easily and Hodor is simple minded or child like. In the cave when Bran is in Hodors body it is stated that Hodor retreats to a place where even Bran cannot reach him, or something like that. Bran basically has free reign over the body and Hodor doesn't interfere anymore, where at first it was a bit of a struggle. Also we know that the longer a skinchanger is in a person or animal they become absorbed over time. So *crackpot warning * say if a skinchanger had a cache of babies/children to change into who havent formed personalities yet and those babies also have the gift, If they changed into the children how would that absorbtion work? The entering skinchanger would be the only influence on the young life basically forming the personality. So even if the skinchanger was absorbed the child would still act like the skinchanger because it is the only "life" they have known. Basically creating a never ending cycle as long as there are babies to hop into :eek:

Which brings me to another thing that always plagues me, those skinchanger meetings that Haggon takes Six Skins to, what in the hell are they doing at these meetings? Writing a handbook or having a picnic?

[Metis]

The concept of the child-soldier is fascinating and terrifying. That "recklessness" that GRRM talks about is just so potent. Look at Arya! She became a killing machine because her emotions, like those of most children, were untempered by the experience that comes from education, learning to be socialized etc. She feels raw attachment or raw hatred ... and when that raw attachment is "betrayed", such as when Gendry stays with the Brotherhood, she feels the hurt so deeply. I guess Nymeria is Ayra's intense emotional state in a strong, powerful body? Able to attack and lead an army rather than make her vengeful way at the mercy of others?

The Unsullied are a great example of the child-soldier whose recklessness is brutally, inhumanely "tempered". I'd say that are the ultimate example of how abuse can work on the immature worldview of kids. I wonder about the extent to which Varys is an abuser. He is, certainly. But how does his abuse work?

[Urrax]

First post, longtime lurker, yadda yadda. :)

One thing I have always had a hard time accepting as a principle used in these theories is the idea of fire being equally bad as ice, and Moqorro/Melisandre being essentially the same as the white walkers. I assume this discussion has happened before, so can someone guide me to it?

In the cold shadow of the wall, and throughout Westeros (save Dorne) the cold, not heat, threatens men. The snow in the riverlands signals effective disaster, the Eyrie has to be evacuated, and the North is frozen in. From Jaime's response to the snow (or lack of it), the Westerlanders face snow, too. Men, in our world at least, stem from a hot, not cold, environment.

Now, Valyria serves as a counterpoint, in a sense, save for a story-structural point: noone in the story faces that deadly heat. The cold has been directly with us since book 1. Fire saved Daenerys, while the cold threatens Jon. The knights of summer are the weak who never knew hardship. etcetera.

Aside from this, there's also the demonic aspects; if indeed the Sidhe of Ice and of Fire are equal, why then does Melisandre walk freely among men, while an Other would always be easy enough to spot (and would usually kill you)? Melisandres presence melts the Wall, aye, but that's already a few steps beyond what men appreciate. Why would these fire demons be so much free-er, so much more capable of hiding? Are men themselves, then, half-demons of fire?

Or maybe Mel is in fact really an Other boring from within? A mole or penetration agent, as MI5 would say ...

[Frey family reunion]

As for Varys' Little Birds, I think that Illyrio may be getting them from Myr. Sometime between when Arya overhears Varys and Illyrio in the bowels of the Red Keep and shortly after the Battle of Blackwater Bay, Illyrio must have been busy gathering up the necessary children for Varys. Shortly after the Blackwater Bay battle, Sallhador Saan comes into possession of a ship of Illyrio's called the Bountiful Harvest (wonder if this is an homage to the ship that brought Dracula over to England the Demeter?). The details of the ship's hold correspond to products that would have either come from Dorne or Myr. Based on the description given of Varys little Birds, with their black hair, dark eyes, and pale features, my guess is they come from Myr as opposed to Dorne. In addition, two of Myr's main products are carpets and lace, two products that are historically notorious for their misuse of child labor.

I have a suspicion that the children are turned into birds via the help of a certain red priest described in AGOT as to be even fatter than Illyrio. Perhaps Moqorro? Much like Moqorro enthralls Victarion, I think the children are turned into thralls in the ceremony that also removes their tongue.

[Mathor]

Forgive me, but I have not perused any of these threads, or really read much theories on the Others as potentially neutral characters. However, I've felt this could potentially be the case from my own reading from the beginning. I've also felt that in the same way Melisandre and her minions can seem pretty evil at times, both sides are very much understood. In relation to Rhllor and the viewpoints of the religion relating to The Great Other, if it is possible that the Others are potentially not as evil as they seem, is it possible that Bran/Brynden could potentially be this "Great Other"?

Sorry if this has been suggested before.

[Urrax]

As for Varys' Little Birds, I think that Illyrio may be getting them from Myr. Sometime between when Arya overhears Varys and Illyrio in the bowels of the Red Keep and shortly after the Battle of Blackwater Bay, Illyrio must have been busy gathering up the necessary children for Varys. Shortly after the Blackwater Bay battle, Sallhador Saan comes into possession of a ship of Illyrio's called the Bountiful Harvest (wonder if this is an homage to the ship that brought Dracula over to England the Demeter?). The details of the ship's hold correspond to products that would have either come from Dorne or Myr. Based on the description given of Varys little Birds, with their black hair, dark eyes, and pale features, my guess is they come from Myr as opposed to Dorne. In addition, two of Myr's main products are carpets and lace, two products that are historically notorious for their misuse of child labor.

I have a suspicion that the children are turned into birds via the help of a certain red priest described in AGOT as to be even fatter than Illyrio. Perhaps Moqorro? Much like Moqorro enthralls Victarion, I think the children are turned into thralls in the ceremony that also removes their tongue.

Interesting.

What did Varys mean in the epilogue to Dance, "For the children"? Did he just mean for the future inhabitants of the realm?

[House Draper]

Another longtime lurker here ... like, really long ... like thirty Heresies long. And I have yet to see this but it's entirely possible that it has been discussed, because let's face it: this thread is basically as old as Bloodraven. Going back to the discussions about how the WWs are created and whether or not they're allied with the CotF, combined with the discussions about the CotF's capability to control the seasons, whether the cold brings the WWs or vice versa in addition to how the WWs materialize from a mist or "shadow":

We know the CotF are capable of manipulating the natural elements i.e. Hammer of the Waters. I, like other people here, do not believe they have control of the seasons. Instead they can control elements like water, plant life, winds, etc. which subsequently throws the seasons off-kilter. So my theory is (not fully-fleshed out and counterintuitive to a lot of what is theorized here) that the WWs are actually the CotF's manipulation of cold mists/cold winds/cold fronts, what have you. Ergo the WWs come with the cold, which is sent by the Children. Granted, this just came to me on one of the last few pages of 62 so there are problems:

1. Why do these cold mists materialize into human forms? My guess of course is that Craster's cute little blood sacrifices contribute some sort of human quality to the WWs. I'm not sold that they're taken and just turned into WWs. Since we have no confirmation that Craster physically hands over the boys to a WW (in the books), I suspect that he actually does sacrifice them "to the wood" aka a weirwood. I have always drawn a connection between weirwoods and sacrifice. In fact, the two are pretty strongly connected throughout the books so for me, it's not a stretch to link Craster's sacrifices with the ubiquitous weirwood sacrifices. Additionally, guess who's at the other end of the weirwoods? The cave-dwellers.

Okay, carried away .... so how do these mists acquire human-like bodies? If we go off the notion that WWs are ice made flesh just as Mel/Moqorro are fire made flesh, and Mel/Moqorro have no doubt been reborn as fire through a blood sacrifice or two, then logically, the same can be said for the WWs. My biggest problem with this is why? Why would the Children want them to resemble humans? Mel and Moqorro were mortal humans before their birth and it makes sense for them to stick with the human form, especially considering their crusade against the Great Other and needing to communicate with humans in order to find AA. Were their own bodies the blood sacrifices in question? Maybe the WWs are just Craster's boys all grown up and icy-like. If so, I find a disconnect between the age they are taken and their appearance as adult WWs. Do they kill and resurrect them as infants and then they grow as WWs? Don't think there are any toddler WWs roaming around. Don't think they kill them and wait for 15 years to resurrect them. Instead, I'm inclined to believe that the Children use those human forms and infuse them into the mists, much like Mel birthed what appeared to be an adult shadow from Stannis's swimmers.

2. This is probably the biggest problem: GRRM has stated that the WWs have a culture. If they were just blood sacrifices infused into a mist that materializes ... would they have a culture? Would the souls of those blood sacrifices remain? Can CotF even create beings that developed and intelligent? We know they can raise the dead, but we don't know if they can create or recreate intelligent beings. We don't know if they can't.

I find the WWs and Mel's shadow baby pretty similar and yet the WWs are obviously intelligent beings. Was the sacrifice to create WWs greater than the sacrifice to create the shadow baby. Is that why they're the better model? Who knows? Anyway I wanted to throw this out there. Debunk away!

In summary:

CotF can command natural elements

WWs materialize from cold mists

Cold mists are a natural element

[A Crow Come Over]

Just to kick off, apropos Craster’s sons:

From a heretical perspective I found this comment in his latest interview interesting:

Not only in Ice and Fire — we also did this bit in the Wild Cards series, the whole thing of the child solider is a fascinating construct. We have this picture of children [as] so sweet and innocent. I think some of the recent history in Africa and some of the longer history have shown that under the right circumstances, they can become just as dangerous as men, and in some ways more dangerous. On some level, it’s almost a game to them.

It's something which has always struck me about Craster's sons. Look again at the behaviour of the white walkers in the AGoT prologue and consider them as still children inside. Just to follow through a little on this one we also have Old Nan's reference to the white walkers taking babies to feed to their undead servants and the bit about wildling women lying with them to produce terrible half-human children. Add Craster's sons into the mix and we have a definite pattern of the blue-eyed lot taking children.

Now it could be, as some argue, that they are simply draining the life out of them, but if we take the assertion that the current lot are Craster's sons and set it alongside the part of the interview quoted, I still argue that what they are doing is kidnapping human children to turn them into child soldiers - they just don't look like children.

GRRM does like his layered meanings, hence the ambiguity over Varys' little birds and his assertion that he's doing it for the children. Whatever further hidden meaning there might be, Varys' birds are, arguably, child soldiers in exactly the sense discussed in that interview and I think it would be appropriately ironic for the so-called children of the forest to also employ the children of men as their soldiers.

Also ties in with "Children of the Forest" which causes ppl to overlook them as dangerous.

Fully agree that Crastor's boys are the Others, due to Crastor have Stark blood (winter inside).

[Black Crow]

In summary:

CotF can command natural elements

WWs materialize from cold mists

Cold mists are a natural element

I do like it when lurkers finally come in from the cold - sorry, couldn't resist it...

This is part of the debate. I did at one time subscribe to the idea of the blue-eyed lot floating around in a misty form until the time came to materialise as white walkers, but these days I tend to the far simpler interpretation that they have a permanent corporeal form and that the mists and falling snow and their glamoured stealth armour is what conceals them. Added to which, avoiding direct sunlight, means that even if its not full dark they're not going to be too easy to spot at the best of times - until its too late.

As to the "current generation", although being ice made flesh they're "a different kind of life", there's no reason to suppose they're immortal any more than the Children (their masters?) are, which is why they periodically need to come down to Craster's place and perhaps other places besides to pick up fresh offerings.

That the cold comes with them/they come with the cold, is presumably down to some kind of manipulation, as is the white cold that raises wights, but given the way everything else works around here I'd be more inclined to say that the Children can manipulate the weather but not control it, and that as with the Hammer and the Wall that manipulation comes with a price.