Why isn't incest more prevalent in Westeros, especially amongst nobility?

[jenerationx]

Is it weird that in Westeros, brother/sister unions among non-Targaryens are frowned upon (such that Jaime and Cersei's union has to be kept hidden, is vociferously denied by their supporters in the text, and is one of the key faults leveled against Joffrey and the other children born of their union -- though granted the main fault is that they're not Robert's)?

I ask because it seems strange that for hundreds of years, the rulers of the Seven Kingdoms and possibly the most-admired family of all, practiced brother-sister marriage openly, and no one else followed suit. Instead, from what we've seen, the rest of the kingdom stayed mostly disgusted with the practice. That's strange to me because, if anything, society likes to imitate its most admired members (in our world, from fashion to cigarette smoking -- it almost always starts in the upper echelons, then trickles down), and the Targaryens definitely fall into that category, at least before their fall. I would have thought, even if only to court favor with them, some high lord or other would have ordered his children to do the same, to show the royal family that they, too, are of noble blood and practice Targaryen customs.

Instead, Westerosi society seems to hold to the opinion that incest is disgusting, implicitly conveying the message that the Targaryen practice is disgusting. Yet it seems to be an unspoken rule that it's disgusting for everyone except Targaryens. Still, the implication of disgust is there, and yet the Targaryens do not take offense, or were just too powerful/proud to care what anyone else thought.

But it's one of those things about this world that I just can't rationalize -- how the most powerful and admired family in the kingdom could favor this practice and yet not influence, even indirectly, any other part of the society they ruled to do the same, including the noble families who were closest to them.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Hmm this is very interesting.

[Brother Walfrid]

Well, here in Britain, the real Royal family are a bunch of inbreds and the general population never followed suit

[mrunderhill]

Targaryens were viewed as greater than human almost god like. It's like questioning why the Greek gods were allowed to be incestuous, but it was viewed as abhorrent for normal men.

Dunk puts it best when he thought the Targaryens were above the rules of common men.

EDIT

Egg spoke as if such incest was the most natural thing in the world. For him it is . The Targaryens had been marrying brother to sister for hundreds of years, to keep the blood of the dragon pure.

Maybe the gods don't mind them marrying their sisters .

[jenerationx]

Yes, that's clearly true re the thought that Targaryens were above the rules of common men.

But it's not like society was like, "We aren't good enough to do as the gods do." It's the opposite: They openly abhor it. Maybe that's splitting hairs though.

It's more that I think of some really awkward scenarios, like:

Kevan: There are some rumors about Cersei and Jaime, that they're lovahs.

Tywin: MY KIDS WOULD NEVER DO THAT. SHUT YOUR MOUTH, THAT'S TOTALLY GROSS.

Aerys: What?

Tywin: Well, not you, Your Majesty. Of course it's not gross when you do it.

[Gronzag]

Because it's disgusting! :ack:

[Pero the first of His name]

While Westerosi nobility almost surely did not notice that it is mostly good to mix up gene pools to get better traits, they did notice how mixing it up with other families has political benefits.

[Bluesnow]

The Targaryens were considered foreigners in a sense. Most of Westeros is composed of descendants of the first men or the andals instead of Valyria.

[Lala]

Incest is seen as an offense to the gods in Westeros - both the Old Gods and the Seven. It's pretty nicely summed up in this passage from Cat's POV in ACoK:

She had seen enough of Robert Baratheon at Winterfell to know that the king did not regard Joffrey with any great warmth. If the boy was truly Jaime’s seed, Robert would have put him to death along with his mother, and few would have condemned him. Bastards were common enough, but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike. The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men.

[jenerationx]

While Westerosi nobility almost surely did not notice that it is mostly good to mix up gene pools to get better traits, they did notice how mixing it up with other families has political benefits.

Yeah, for sure. This is one of the reasons I can think of why, practically speaking, nobles would prefer marrying into other families. I'm just surprised that there's not a single instance of someone trying to curry favor with the Targaryens (maybe with some extra progeny lying around -- say, the Freys) by doing a little brother-sister marrying in their own families. And more than that, that the practice would still be looked upon by the same amount of disgust that our own society has, despite the fact that their most powerful/popular/admired rulers practiced it.

[jenerationx]

Incest is seen as an offense to the gods in Westeros - both the Old Gods and the Seven. It's pretty nicely summed up in this passage from Cat's POV in ACoK:

Thanks for that passage! I'd forgotten it existed. It's a good reminder that this is a very religious society, so those beliefs may have stayed even the most brown-nosing noble from wanting to imitate their admired rulers.

[Lala]

Yeah, for sure. This is one of the reasons I can think of why, practically speaking, nobles would prefer marrying into other families. I'm just surprised that there's not a single instance of someone trying to curry favor with the Targaryens (maybe with some extra progeny lying around -- say, the Freys) by doing a little brother-sister marrying in their own families. And more than that, that the practice would still be looked upon by the same amount of disgust that our own society has, despite the fact that their most powerful/popular/admired rulers practiced it.

There's also this context: most of Westeros worshipped the Seven and the Old Gods before the Targs invaded and created the 7K. In both religions, incest is seen as a heinous affront to the gods (something along the lines of violating "guest right" a la RW). The Targs aren't admired for their incest, but rather excused for it because they are seen as "foreigners" and "above the gods" because, like their dragons, Targs answer "to neither gods nor men"

ETA: ninja'd by OP but yes~ that's the point I am trying to make :)

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Yeah, for sure. This is one of the reasons I can think of why, practically speaking, nobles would prefer marrying into other families. I'm just surprised that there's not a single instance of someone trying to curry favor with the Targaryens (maybe with some extra progeny lying around -- say, the Freys) by doing a little brother-sister marrying in their own families. And more than that, that the practice would still be looked upon by the same amount of disgust that our own society has, despite the fact that their most powerful/popular/admired rulers practiced it.

Considering the Frey's could stand to breed their weasel looking faces out of existance, I'm glad they didn't take up after the Targs. Then again, hasn't it been implied Black Walder was doing any female at The Twins that he could get his hands on, related to him or not??

In all seriousness, I do see the seriousness of your point, I do think that Westerosi nobility smiled in the Targs face about the incest and put it off as...it's their way, and to themselves, condemned it.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

People are hard wired to desexualize their siblings. Even without the social taboos involved we're not built that way.

[The Prince of Ice]

I think the main reason incest isnt popular in the Seven Kingdoms because they worship the Seven.

The Faith condemns incest, other than that i dont know why.

The North or the Iron Island dont talk much of incest so who knows maybe they practiced it once.

[Morienthar]

Because animals are hard wired to avoid inbreeding and that has transformed itself into a cultural characteristic in human beings.

[Mad Monkey]

I think the main reason incest isnt popular in the Seven Kingdoms because they worship the Seven.

The Faith condemns incest, other than that i dont know why.

The North or the Iron Island dont talk much of incest so who knows maybe they practiced it once.

The old gods also consider incest to be an abomination, so most Northmen would too I think.

I will note though that Asha took a ver-r-r-r-r-r-ry long time to tell Theon that she was his sister even while she was letting him get to second base with her on the way to Pyke. And Victarion even became aroused when Asha was talking about partnering with him to take over the Iron Islands (she wanted to be his Hand, but he thought she meant that she wanted to be his wife, and for some reason the fact that she was his niece didn't register because... well... Victarion.)

[The Prince of Ice]

The old gods also consider incest to be an abomination, so most Northmen would too I think.

I will note though that Asha took a ver-r-r-r-r-r-ry long time to tell Theon that she was his sister even while she was letting him get to second base with her on the way to Pyke. And Victarion even became aroused when Asha was talking about partnering with him to take over the Iron Islands (she wanted to be his Hand, but he thought she meant that she wanted to be his wife, and for some reason the fact that she was his niece didn't register because... well... Victarion.)

Is there evidence the Old Gods prohibit incest?

[Lala]

Incest is seen as an offense to the gods in Westeros - both the Old Gods and the Seven. It's pretty nicely summed up in this passage from Cat's POV in ACoK:

She had seen enough of Robert Baratheon at Winterfell to know that the king did not regard Joffrey with any great warmth. If the boy was truly Jaime’s seed, Robert would have put him to death along with his mother, and few would have condemned him. Bastards were common enough, but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike. The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men.

[The Prince of Ice]

Thanks Lala, guess incest is despised by the Old Gods and the New, maybe the Drowned God swings that way who knows.