Luwin's sacrifice to the heart tree and the safety of the Stark Boys

[Julian Rayne]

Wow - good catch.

[Chacho88]

to luwin already dying making it count or not, maybe he could have instructed osha somehow to heal him, maybe it would require them to carry him and tend to him for months, so in that sense he did give up his life, ( or maybe im wrong)

[Chacho88]

and how many maesters are around in westeros and the world, if every one in a hundred, their must be few or several more who have valryian chains, not that i think that has anything to do with the blood sacrifice

[Prince DragonFly]

can't believe how many people actually like this idea! thanks guys, my threads are usually pretty lame. :cool4:

I think it is stating the obvious to say that there is something supernatural regarding the Stark children and the history of their family but you have to admit that the children thus far, excluding Robb, have had some divine intervention when it comes to their own safety. Bran survives his fall, and Bran and Rickon both survive perilous journeys through the North. Most of the issues that arise for Starks happen when they are removed from the north and the Weirwoods. This theory at least explains part of that "luck".

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

The House of Black & White has a half weirwood door. People sacrifice themselves there everyday. Maybe those sacrifices in a temple with weirwood door are a part of what gives the FM their power?

[Frey family reunion]

I think we could add to the list the cave of the BwB as it was filled with weirwood roots:

I wonder how many "trials" had been held in that cave...

.

And of course all of the bones found in Bloodraven's cave. I also have a sneaking suspicion that House Bracken poisoned House Blackwood's tree a thousand years ago because of the number of human sacrifices conducted there (maybe to include denizens of House Braken).

The Andals probably had a pretty good reason to cut down the weirwoods.

[MidnightAurora]

So this may have been discussed before, and I know for a fact that whether or not Luwin actually thought he was going to be sacrificed to the Old Gods is a point of contention.

But when he had Osha give him the gift of mercy under the heart tree, is it possible that Luwin's last request to keep the boys safe has thus far been accomplished because he was used as a sacrifice to protect Bran and Rickon on their journeys?

thoughts?

I think that in an act of desperation, Luwin decided to "give magic a shot" in a sense. His whole world had been turned upside down and he knew that something magical was going on with Bran. So maybe when Osha promised to keep them safe, his sacrifice has made sure this will come true.

I caught it too, but I like your explanation. His blood sacrifice (although the old gods do not seem to need blood sacrifice)/ life was done willingly that has the greatest power of protection there is. It is as if a mother dying for her child the child is protected because of the mother's selfless act of sacrificing. (I would reference Harry Potter, but I will not here.). I think him doing what he did in front of the heart tree no less protected all Stark children in a way, but most notably Bran. I also noticed the Starks are very protected when weirwoods are around and there seems to be a lot of weirwoods everywhere even if they are roots/stumps they still hold great power. I like your thoughts.

He also stated something to Osha out of earshot of Bran and I think that could have some importance too. Weirwoods/old Gods hold power and seems to protect the Starks when they are around them. Thoros can not see into his flames when around weirwoods/old gods unlike being in the sept of seven he could.

[Prince of the Green]

Harren the Black was killed in a castle that was partially constructed (rafters) with weirwood. That could be seen as another sacrifice, and another link between the religions of the Old Gods and the followers of R'hllor. And, if you shift perspective around a little bit, you could say it was another voluntary self-sacrifice, considering Harren was given a chance to leave and did not.

[direwienerdog]

Good catch. Also the weirwood paste that looked like it had blood in it wasn't Jojen but somehow the Maester Lewyn sacrifice. I know Jojen sees his death coming soon, but I hope it isn't yet.

[Lost Melnibonean]

So this may have been discussed before, and I know for a fact that whether or not Luwin actually thought he was going to be sacrificed to the Old Gods is a point of contention.

But when he had Osha give him the gift of mercy under the heart tree, is it possible that Luwin's last request to keep the boys safe has thus far been accomplished because he was used as a sacrifice to protect Bran and Rickon on their journeys?

thoughts?

I think that in an act of desperation, Luwin decided to "give magic a shot" in a sense. His whole world had been turned upside down and he knew that something magical was going on with Bran. So maybe when Osha promised to keep them safe, his sacrifice has made sure this will come true.

Nice theory but I don't think Luwin would have tried magic. And I think the Last Hero, I mean Bran, and his, um, companions, made it wothe help of Coldhands.

[kiasyd]

Very good point, all necessary elements are there - maybe this was a valid sacrifice even if performed unaware by Luwin and Osha.

[A Man Has Said]

I have no doubt blood sacrifice have ancient roots in the Old God customs, As in hanging entrails in branches of heart tree and try to please the Gods,

may blood make the Weirwood trees stronger and makes their roots large and long?

If Bran the builder built Winterfell 8000 years ago, and the Weirwood was there before that, that means the heart tree is 8000 years old, thats a very long time.

and if there are surviving heart trees before the first men came than there are many Weirwood trees that are 10000 years old.

Are Weirwood trees immortal unless cut down by humans or burned by fire? seemingly they endure Winter.

I think they retain some of their magical powers even AFTER they've been cut down. I don't know about burned by fire. There are strong suggestions that the stumps at high heart confer some prophetic power or insight. This is where the Ghost of High Heart performs her uncanny read in some of the Arya chapters in "A Storm of Swords," and Jaime has a remarkable dream in the same book when he goes to sleep lying on a weirwood stump. It's the same dream that causes him to go back to Harrenhal and rescue Brienne. Also the poisoned tree at Raventree Hall still attracts hundreds of ravens (known through Bran's point of view to have some 'Old God' magical abilities) though it has been long dead.

Jojen says at some point that living trees (of all sorts) have a special power. Apparently this is far more significant in Weirwoods. I think they're going to have some special role in the final novels of this series.

[Eustace Osgrey]

I feel that it was a blood sacrifice to the Old Gods, and the fact that no words were uttered (as far as we know) by Osha give credence to that. The Old Gods don't have prayers for everything else (like the 7 or R'hllor), so why should they have one for a sacrifice? When considering this, be sure to take into account that there were no mention of words being spoken when Craster sacrificing his children are concerned (iirc).

[A Man Has Said]

can't believe how many people actually like this idea! thanks guys, my threads are usually pretty lame. :cool4:

I think it is stating the obvious to say that there is something supernatural regarding the Stark children and the history of their family but you have to admit that the children thus far, excluding Robb, have had some divine intervention when it comes to their own safety. Bran survives his fall, and Bran and Rickon both survive perilous journeys through the North. Most of the issues that arise for Starks happen when they are removed from the north and the Weirwoods. This theory at least explains part of that "luck".

Don't be modest, this is a really insightful idea. I think the number of other comments that add related details is witness to just how well this holds together.

Just to throw in my two cents worth, it just occurred to me that this could add quite a bit to the idea that Asha is insisting that Stannis sacrifice Theon in the northern way, by beheading him before a weirwood, rather than sacrificing him to R'hllor in a fire. That could have a lot of repercussions, especially since Theon's heart's desire at this point must be to wreak revenge on Ramsay and Roose Bolton. It could also have an effect on Stannis himself, perhaps causing him to abandon the Red God once and for all, and Melisandre in the bargain. Most people expect that Mel is going to drop Stannis like a hot potato sometime fairly soon anyway, so that would provide some kind of balance.

[Ser Areo Mace]

This makes me wonder if the Blackwoods' weirwood could come back to life with the sacrifice of a Bracken. I'm sure they tried it back in the day, but I think it might be cool for that tree to come back to life and the Old Gods would have a little more power in the south once again.

[A Man Has Said]

This makes me wonder if the Blackwoods' weirwood could come back to life with the sacrifice of a Bracken. I'm sure they tried it back in the day, but I think it might be cool for that tree to come back to life and the Old Gods would have a little more power in the south once again.

Well, there was a weirwood sapling growing in the courtyard of The Whispers on Crackclaw Point, the place that Brienne slew Shagwell, Timeon and Pyg. Nimble Dick Crabb also died there that day, slain by Shagwell. Crabb claimed that his forebears (who were First Men) managed to keep the Andals from invading Crackclaw Point. The existence of the weirwood there might lend credence to that story, since it was the Andals who destroyed the weirwoods in the south to begin with, because they feared their powers!

I think the power of the weirwoods really is re-exerting itself in the south. Methinks Ser Thomas has opened up a rich new line of inquiry for this forum to discuss.

[Prince DragonFly]

you guys all bring up some really good points. Does any one have the text of the scene where the boys find Luwin under the tree? I don't have an e-book and my copy of AGOT is loaned to a slow reading friend. I want to make sure I am not thinking of the scene in the show!

Someone above noted that when people pray to the Old Gods no words are spoken. Is this always the case? When Bran was looking back through the Weirnet, didn't he hear Ned say "let them grow up as brothers" and the woman seeking revenge for her son? or was Bran able to access their internal thoughts since they were directed at the heart tree.

Once again, sorry no e-book and it will take too long to find in the book. any posts of the actual text would be great.

Also, I think it is evident that Jon and Robb did grow up as brothers (clearly what Ned was praying for). It would be interesting to know if everyone else's prayers, and the sacrifice that Bran witnessed, had their intended results accomplished.

[Lord Damian]

When the kids told him of the dreams about their father dying and then the raven came, he knew, he knew then and became a believer.

[PrinceHenryris]

So this may have been discussed before, and I know for a fact that whether or not Luwin actually thought he was going to be sacrificed to the Old Gods is a point of contention.

But when he had Osha give him the gift of mercy under the heart tree, is it possible that Luwin's last request to keep the boys safe has thus far been accomplished because he was used as a sacrifice to protect Bran and Rickon on their journeys?

thoughts?

I think that in an act of desperation, Luwin decided to "give magic a shot" in a sense. His whole world had been turned upside down and he knew that something magical was going on with Bran. So maybe when Osha promised to keep them safe, his sacrifice has made sure this will come true.

Awesome Insight!

[The Dragon & The Wolf]

Petyr "sacrificing" Lysa by throwing her out of the Moon Door was only to his benefit and no one elses. It was not selfless unlike Luwin's- granted he was dying anyway, at least he made his last moments count for something.