Is the queen of thorns sexist?

[David Selig]

One of which said than men were only worth their penises. Clayton Suggs hasn't said anything anywhere near that bad; it's only his general attitude that puts him near the QoT.

He loves torturing women, I'd say this is way worse, and he was much more rude to Asha than QoT has been to anyone..

[RhaenysBee]

Well, since women are clearly not emancipated in ASOIAF this should be what makes the Queen of Thorns the Queen of Thorns, no? That she has the wits and the courage to mock men in the world of men. Olenna is fun and wise and cunning, and all she means is make people take masculinity and men a little less seriously, since her character is mainly a comic relief.

As for those quotes being offensive... I have never ever found anything in the books that would offend me as a woman and today I was reminded only about three times that I'm unable to set up the sun beds because my ID number starts with no 2 (which if for female here)... so what? There was nothing to get offended by, because it wasn't meant as an offense, only a jest and a tease and I was unable to set up a stupid bed alone too, because it was too heavy and I'm small. Same way, WHO puts the car keys in the bathroom drawer? Just who? Men. And who finds it? Me. Nothing sexist about that either...

If I really want to call somebody a sexist in the series that should be... duh... really... Theon? Victarion maybe... I don't really know...

[Riptide]

He loves torturing women, I'd say this is way worse, and he was much more rude to Asha than QoT has been to anyone..

Torture makes him evil, not sexist. Rude? That does not make him anything except rude.

[space]

Not sexist towards women, but sexist towards men. These quotes really make me wonder about this.

That seems extremely extremely sexist and highly offensive to me. Anyway, what are everyone elses thoughts on this?

wow, cmon dude, seriously!? she is a very intelligent women and prone to facetious comments...I, like virtually every other guy on the planet, have made several facetious comments about women "all women are crazy" or "damn, women dont apply logic to anything" do i mean those things literally when I say them? of course not (well, a lot of them are crazy :ack: ) am I at all sexist in any way? of course not...

another thing to take out of her comments is it seems pretty clear that in the Tyrell family the women tend to be considerably more intelligent then the men, but then again I doubt she looks at house lannister with cersei and thinks the same way

[mrunderhill]

another thing to take out of her comments is it seems pretty clear that in the Tyrell family the women tend to be considerably more intelligent then the men, but then again I doubt she looks at house lannister with cersei and thinks the same way

Why do the women in the Tyrell family seem to be considerably smarter than the men? Garlan seems pretty intelligent and supposedly so is Willas.

[Ramsay B.]

wow, cmon dude, seriously!? she is a very intelligent women and prone to facetious comments...I, like virtually every other guy on the planet, have made several facetious comments about women "all women are crazy" or "damn, women dont apply logic to anything" do i mean those things literally when I say them? of course not (well, a lot of them are crazy :ack: ) am I at all sexist in any way? of course not...

another thing to take out of her comments is it seems pretty clear that in the Tyrell family the women tend to be considerably more intelligent then the men, but then again I doubt she looks at house lannister with cersei and thinks the same way

I think it's sexist that you don't take her seriously enough to be sexist. Ha. This thread is funny. E-Ro is a trouble maker.

[Minsc]

When did Stannis call Gily a whore? I believe you, but want proof. On Tyrion, did he ever say anything near approaching "women are only worth their genitals"?

He says that goat's milk is better then whore's milk after learning about Gilly and Craster.

[The Fallen]

` Are men really whining about what Olenna is saying? So what if she's sexist? She doesn't have the power to subjugate all men, that's why she can get away with it, in my personal opinion.

Do you know why men can't say the same about women? Because men can, and have, subjugated women. It's not funny when a man says it and women should react with outrage, if for no other reason than to bring attention to the history behind such thinking, and the men behind it. It's almost like a preemptive strike to stop it before it can go any further.

I do agree, however, that some women on this board have a double-standard and can make it frustrating to have a conversation about certain characters and/or situations.

To the men, "stop the whining."

[Winter's Knight]

Lol, slightly sexist? She's as much so as Clayton Suggs.

When did Stannis call Gily a whore? I believe you, but want proof. On Tyrion, did he ever say anything near approaching "women are only worth their genitals"?

Here:

“I can find another wet nurse. If there’s none amongst the wildlings, I will send to the mountain clans. Until such time, goat’s milk should suffice for the boy, if it please Your Grace.”

“Poor fare for a prince ... but better than whore’s milk, aye.” Stannis drummed his fingers on the

map. “If we may return to the matter of these forts ...”

Tyrion reducing a woman to her genitelia:

The only part of you that interests me is the part between your legs, he almost said. The words were on his tongue, but somehow never passed his lips. She is not Shae, the dwarf told himself, only some little fool who thinks I play at riddles.

There might have been something similar around Septa Lemore but I have the flu and a fuzzy head at the moment.

[SeanF]

Torture makes him evil, not sexist. Rude? That does not make him anything except rude.

He does suggest to Asha that he'd enjoy raping her, but he'd like to burn her alive even more.

[SeanF]

I had a funny, sharp-tongued grandmother, like Olenna, and I'd have found comments like the ones quoted here quite amusing.

[daario's man]

` Are men really whining about what Olenna is saying? So what if she's sexist? She doesn't have the power to subjugate all men, that's why she can get away with it, in my personal opinion.

Do you know why men can't say the same about women? Because men can, and have, subjugated women. It's not funny when a man says it and women should react with outrage, if for no other reason than to bring attention to the history behind such thinking, and the men behind it. It's almost like a preemptive strike to stop it before it can go any further.

This. She is reacting to the misogynistic world she lives in with a few snarky comments (a lot of which happen to be true), this is nowhere near as bad as the actual sexism that goes on in their world and ours. If people want to talk about women being sexist in the series lets at least start with Cersei and maybe QoT can get a footnote.

[Kolantero]

Are men really whining about what Olenna is saying? So what if she's sexist? She doesn't have the power to subjugate all men, that's why she can get away with it, in my personal opinion.

Actually she does have the power to subjugate a great deal number of men, basically anyone who has Tyrells as liege lords. And yes you did say "all men" but then again aside from the king there is no man who can subjugate "all women" in Westeros either.

[Fearsedge]

Okay, the "stop whining" trend that started a few posts ago is pretty ridiculous. To point out a character is sexist is "whining"? I could understand that if someone pointed out that ASoFaI is sexist, or GRRM was sexist, or that there was some legitimate threat of males being persecuted against because of this work of fiction was sexist. I think that way when I see some feminist complain about sexist book covers, or sexist video games. I think "who cares? Find something meaningful to complain about! There's enough pain and suffering in this world for you to be concerned with, not a supposed attack against women(or men) in a FICTION BOOK."

But that's not what is going on here. We are determining whether a fictional character, Olenna Tyrell, is sexist against men. I think that it certainly seems like she is sexist, although as some people pointed out, she might not have meant her comments literally, and was just talking about her own family, mainly. Which is not AS bad.

I just wanted to chime in and point out that it's standard practice to find sexism in everything when people think women are being portrayed badly(however you define it), and if someone says to stop whining they are accused of being sexist themselves(I know, I saw it on this very forum in the sexism on book covers thread). That is not even happening in this case, as I said, we are discussing a fictional character's sexism, but you get the standard responses to pointing out sexism against men(stop whining, it's not sexist, etc.).

[Fearsedge]

Tyrion reducing a woman to her genitelia:

There might have been something similar around Septa Lemore but I have the flu and a fuzzy head at the moment.

That's Tyrion thinking he just wants a woman for sex. In that instance. It's not sexist to just want meaningless sex with a person(man or woman). It's sexist to think all men are stupid and are only good for their penises. Again, I'm not saying she literally means her comments, or apply to all men, we don't know either way

[Lala]

Here:

Tyrion reducing a woman to her genitelia:

There might have been something similar around Septa Lemore but I have the flu and a fuzzy head at the moment.

Thanks for the quotes Winter! Tyrion is such a joyful little ball of sexist commentary~

I do agree that it is unproductive to respond to the OP's question with "stop whining" - though I can understand the urge ;)

While my initial reaction, like most of the posters, is also "really. of all of the examples of sexism you have to choose Lady Olenna?" I do think it's productive to discuss her attitude in a neutral and rational manner - after all, le snark is an integral part of Lady Olenna's persona and her beliefs about how "all men are fools" are central to understanding her character.

On the other hand, I do believe that it is dangerous to put her snarky sexist comments on the same platform as the more constant misogyny that is prevalent in the attitudes of the majority of the characters in ASoIaF. There is a significant difference between one old lady discussing penors and a consistent, accepted attitude of objectification and dismissal towards women in a society. To discuss the two as comparable examples is to tread dangerously close to trivializing the latter.

That being said, E-Ro brings up an excellent point and I admit that I myself am guilty of overlooking examples of when women behave in a sexist manner (either towards other women or men)

[SeanF]

Here:

Tyrion reducing a woman to her genitelia:

There might have been something similar around Septa Lemore but I have the flu and a fuzzy head at the moment.

I'm looking forward to Dany's reaction, when Tyrion says something like that to her.

[Sansa_Stark]

Thanks for the quotes Winter! Tyrion is such a joyful little ball of sexist commentary~

I do agree that it is unproductive to respond to the OP's question with "stop whining" - though I can understand the urge ;)

While my initial reaction, like most of the posters, is also "really. of all of the examples of sexism you have to choose Lady Olenna?" I do think it's productive to discuss her attitude in a neutral and rational manner - after all, le snark is an integral part of Lady Olenna's persona and her beliefs about how "all men are fools" are central to understanding her character.

On the other hand, I do believe that it is dangerous to put her snarky sexist comments on the same platform as the more constant misogyny that is prevalent in the attitudes of the majority of the characters in ASoIaF. There is a significant difference between one old lady discussing penors and a consistent, accepted attitude of objectification and dismissal towards women in a society. To discuss the two as comparable examples is to tread dangerously close to trivializing the latter.

That being said, E-Ro brings up an excellent point and I admit that I myself am guilty of overlooking examples of when women behave in a sexist manner (either towards other women or men)

Are people actually doing this?

We just want to point out that the woman is a sexist. Even if its trivial compared to the misogyny portrayed in the series, it doesn't change the fact that it exists and its ridiculous that so many people are basically playing it off as either a joke, or claiming that it isn't sexist while it clearly is.

[Lala]

Are people actually doing this?

We just want to point out that the woman is a sexist. Even if its trivial compared to the misogyny portrayed in the series, it doesn't change the fact that it exists and its ridiculous that so many people are basically playing it off as either a joke, or claiming that it isn't sexist while it clearly is.

Again, what Lady Olenna says is sexist, but it's sexist in the same context as this Oscar Wilde quote

Men always want to be a woman’s first love. That is their clumsy vanity. We women have a more subtle instinct about these things. What (women) like is to be a man’s last romance.

There is an underlying facetiousness and inclination towards witticisms that needs to be taken into account. Does it make the attitude more excusable? No, of course not. But it does make the attitude less dangerous.

We're getting eerily close.

Lol, slightly sexist? She's as much so as Clayton Suggs.

When did Stannis call Gily a whore? I believe you, but want proof. On Tyrion, did he ever say anything near approaching "women are only worth their genitals"?

Well, just above my post it was said she is as sexist as Clayton Suggs, which is way too much IMO since she hasn't done anything more than say a few rude jokes and snarky remarks.

One of which said than men were only worth their penises. Clayton Suggs hasn't said anything anywhere near that bad; it's only his general attitude that puts him near the QoT.

[The Fallen]

Actually she does have the power to subjugate a great deal number of men, basically anyone who has Tyrells as liege lords. And yes you did say "all men" but then again aside from the king there is no man who can subjugate "all women" in Westeros either.

Can Olenna do to men what, say, a Tarly or Tywin can do to women?

Okay, the "stop whining" trend that started a few posts ago is pretty ridiculous. To point out a character is sexist is "whining"?

If the quotes presented are the evidence, then yes, it comes across as whining. By that standard, every female comic in the world is "sexist".

I could understand that if someone pointed out that ASoFaI is sexist, or GRRM was sexist, or that there was some legitimate threat of males being persecuted against because of this work of fiction was sexist. I think that way when I see some feminist complain about sexist book covers, or sexist video games. I think "who cares? Find something meaningful to complain about! There's enough pain and suffering in this world for you to be concerned with, not a supposed attack against women(or men) in a FICTION BOOK."

I also mentioned (in that same post) the double-standard some women on this forum have when it comes to leveling criticism against female characters.

But that's not what is going on here. We are determining whether a fictional character, Olenna Tyrell, is sexist against men. I think that it certainly seems like she is sexist, although as some people pointed out, she might not have meant her comments literally, and was just talking about her own family, mainly. Which is not AS bad.

I don't think that Olenna's comments necessarily make her sexist. Is there a trail of castrated men in her wake? Has she been known to torture men for the crime of being...men? It's her shtick. That's how I see it, at least. Any lord who doesn't take himself too seriously would probably agree with Olenna's first quote and laugh at the second. I don't think any of them would feel uncomfortable around her because of her "sexist" comments.

But I still stand by my comments about the whining. It's unbecoming. At least where Olenna is concerned. Now, if they were talking about Cersei it would be different. She actually had men arrested, imprisoned and tortured for no apparent crime. But even then, is she sexist or a sadist? Maybe neither. Maybe she's just evil. But she clearly has the power to subjugate some men. Olenna sexist? I don't think so.

I just wanted to chime in and point out that it's standard practice to find sexism in everything when people think women are being portrayed badly(however you define it), and if someone says to stop whining they are accused of being sexist themselves(I know, I saw it on this very forum in the sexism on book covers thread). That is not even happening in this case, as I said, we are discussing a fictional character's sexism, but you get the standard responses to pointing out sexism against men(stop whining, it's not sexist, etc.).

This I agree with. I've been in many threads were the terms "sexist" and "misogynist" were thrown around at men who didn't sympathize with a female character, or heck, even with the female poster herself.

It's funny. I remember a thread that asked why threads about female characters elicited the most and more emotional responses. Myself and other men stated the rush-to-defend and then attack by some female posters as being the reason. It doesn't matter if you point out that men bash male characters just as much as we criticize women characters. There is clearly a doubl-standard.