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Is the queen of thorns sexist?


E-Ro

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Which is like saying liberalism = communism and conservatism = fascism :P

I'm not sure what the criticism is here. I said myself that it is not necessarily the view of all feminists.

I see that your title is "Anti-Feminist" - let me define that title for you :) Feminism is, quite simply, the belief that women are the equals of men. So when you call yourself an "Anti-Feminist" you are basically saying that you do not believe that women and men are equal and should be treated as such.

Nope, that's not the definition of anti-feminist (unless you mean the definition a feminist would create for that word) but anyway I debated that to death in the last couple of days, not interested in doing it any more.

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Which is like saying liberalism = communism and conservatism = fascism :P

I see that your title is "Anti-Feminist" - let me define that title for you :) Feminism is, quite simply, the belief that women are the equals of men. So when you call yourself an "Anti-Feminist" you are basically saying that you do not believe that women and men are equal and should be treated as such.

I think the difference is between classism and sexism. In Cat's case, she had authority over those low-born men because she is of a higher class. However, she would be in a subservient position relative to men who are seen as her social equals like Ned, Tywin, or Edmure.

Which is to say, women of higher social classes have power over men of lower social classes, but all else equal, women are always less powerful than men.

ETA: I do not agree with posters calling this topic whiny - it was a valid question about an interesting character and is generating interesting discourse.

Is that really true though completely? As I recall Lysa Tully held an enormous amount of power and "respect" for a while. As lady of the Eyrie of course. While I doubt she would(or any woman really) be able to become HOTK or something, I don't think in terms of power she could really defer to Edmure, Ned or Tywin. Its her personality that cows her, but not her status at that point.

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Is that really true though completely? As I recall Lysa Tully held an enormous amount of power and "respect" for a while. As lady of the Eyrie of course. While I doubt she would(or any woman really) be able to become HOTK or something, I don't think in terms of power she could really defer to Edmure, Ned or Tywin. Its her personality that cows her, but not her status at that point.

This is more a question of circumstances - Lysa has power only because of the minority of Sweetrobin. She is essentially seen as representing the power of the Lord of the Eyrie until he is old enough to do so himself. This is like arguing that Dowager Empresses who rule for their young Emperor sons in China are a sign that there is no disparity between the statuses of men and women in ancient China. Cat, whose son Robb is of age to rule, is slowly marginalized in the leadership of the North even though she was expressly given the power to rule the North by Ned.

Basically, simply because the individual circumstances of one woman allow her to gain a level of autonomy and power, doesn't mean that we can extrapolate this one outlier as a representation of the positions of all women in this society.

ETA: Lysa is essentially a steward of "male power" in the form of Sweetrobin - so when she speaks as an equal with Ned or Edmure, it is because Sweetrobin is their equal, not Lysa.

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Please don't talk down to me. I don't need you validate my points. I just wonder why you pounced on me when you now concede that we are largely on the same page.

Your initial post seemed like you were attacking the OP. It also seemed as though you were excusing and ignoring the sexism on Olenna's part because of it.

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Nope, that's not the definition of anti-feminist (unless you mean the definition a feminist would create for that word) but anyway I debated that to death in the last couple of days, not interested in doing it any more.

Just curious as to what you feel is anti-feminist and why you call yourself one?

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This is more a question of circumstances - Lysa has power only because of the minority of Sweetrobin. She is essentially seen as representing the power of the Lord of the Eyrie until he is old enough to do so himself. This is like arguing that Dowager Empresses who rule for their young Emperor sons in China are a sign that there is no disparity between the statuses of men and women in ancient China. Cat, whose son Robb is of age to rule, is slowly marginalized in the leadership of the North even though she was expressly given the power to rule the North by Ned.

Basically, simply because the individual circumstances of one woman allow her to gain a level of autonomy and power, doesn't mean that we can extrapolate this one outlier as a representation of the positions of all women in this society.

ETA: Lysa is essentially a steward of "male power" in the form of Sweetrobin - so when she speaks as an equal with Ned or Edmure, it is because Sweetrobin is their equal, not Lysa.

Okay, that makes sense.

I don't disagree that noblemen have a huge advantage over noblewomen. But what happens if SweetRobin were a girl?

There are occasional women heirs in certain families. As I recall Hoster originally raised Cat as his heir, and Balon did Asha.

It happens occasionally, but women do have a shot at power, but that's only if they don't have a brother.

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This is more a question of circumstances - Lysa has power only because of the minority of Sweetrobin. She is essentially seen as representing the power of the Lord of the Eyrie until he is old enough to do so himself. This is like arguing that Dowager Empresses who rule for their young Emperor sons in China are a sign that there is no disparity between the statuses of men and women in ancient China. Cat, whose son Robb is of age to rule, is slowly marginalized in the leadership of the North even though she was expressly given the power to rule the North by Ned.

Cat and Robb are a bad example - Catelyn herself made the conscious decision to demure her regency in favor of Robb's premature majority. Her authority didn't evaporate because she was a woman. in aGoT, she acted with authority that really wasn't questioned, but then again, it was by her social inferiors.

A better example of sexist attitudes affecting her impact by those of her social station would be when she was sent as Robb's emissary to Renly's camp. Even this is an imperfect prism to view this issue, because she was a side player in the fraternal nightmare of inner House Baratheon relations, but Renly was gracious and cordial, and ultimately dismissive of her in a way I don't think he would have had Robb sent, I dunno, Ser Brynden in his stead.

edit: typos!

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Your initial post seemed like you were attacking the OP. It also seemed as though you were excusing and ignoring the sexism on Olenna's part because of it.

I was just noting that there is sexism and there is sexism and the Lady Olenna's sexism is ultimately, as we agree, 'trivial.'

Okay, that makes sense.

I don't disagree that noblemen have a huge advantage over noblewomen. But what happens if SweetRobin were a girl?

Not very much, for the purposes of this discussion.

If Sweetrobin was a girl and still the only child of Jon Arryn, Lady Lysa would still be regent in her name until she came of age. It might add another layer of social politics, since the lords of the Valle would all be angling to a) marry the Lady Regent and absorb some of the power of the regent's consort (i.e. Lord Protector) and b ) there would also be a bidding war for the hand of the future Lady Arryn, so all the prominent Vale lords would try to lock down the betrothal.

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Okay, that makes sense.

I don't disagree that noblemen have a huge advantage over noblewomen. But what happens if SweetRobin were a girl?

There are occasional women heirs in certain families. As I recall Hoster originally raised Cat as his heir, and Balon did Asha.

It happens occasionally, but women do have a shot at power, but that's only if they don't have a brother.

I think you answered your own question :)

I don't think anyone is arguing that women are completely impotent in Westeros - simply that they were consistently less impotent than men, all else equal. I don't know enough about ASoIaF legalese or medieval European values to answer the question about Sweetrobin, but I don't think it really matters vis-a-vis the discussion we are having :)

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Guys, lets talk about intersectionality! For illuminatory purposes, we'll talk about me: brown, disabled, upper middle class, isexual cis-woman living in the UK.

My areas of privelige are: class, wealth and being cis-so I don't have to deal with classism and transphobia.

I do however deal with: sexism/misogyny, homo/bi[hobia, ablism and racism.

This mix of privilege and discrimination forms a part of the kyriarchy.

Similarly Tyrion doesn't have to deal with classism or homophobia but he does deal with ablism.

And so Lysa or Cat or Cersei are affected by misogyny even if they are safe from classism.

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Just curious as to what you feel is anti-feminist and why you call yourself one?

An anti-feminist is anyone who opposes feminism (on its entirety) for whatever reason. This can include anything, from the definition given by Lala to any other reason. Mine is that feminism is too gynocentric to be an equality movement.

Anyway, I'm not going to expand on that since it will derail the thread off-topic

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An anti-feminist is anyone who opposes feminism (on its entirety) for whatever reason. This can include anything, from the definition given by Lala to any other reason. Mine is that feminism is too gynocentric to be an equality movement.

Anyway, I'm not going to expand on that since it will derail the thread off-topic

That's just a bastardization from some internet/tumblr feminists. Yes, they can(I'm not referring to all feminists) be very vocal and very hateful, but it goes the exact same way for MRA's as well.

For some reason gender wars always brings out so much hate.

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An anti-feminist is anyone who opposes feminism (on its entirety) for whatever reason. This can include anything, from the definition given by Lala to any other reason. Mine is that feminism is too gynocentric to be an equality movement.

Anyway, I'm not going to expand on that since it will derail the thread off-topic

That's interesting. I actually agree with your point about gynocentricism/ethnocentricism being counter-productive to an equality movement - i.e. I don't feel particularly strongly about Asian American movements whereas I do care about general equality between ethnicities/am anti-racism. However, I consider myself a feminist primarily because I don't see it as a movement, but as an attitude. But I'll stop here lest I derail :P

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An anti-feminist is anyone who opposes feminism (on its entirety) for whatever reason. This can include anything, from the definition given by Lala to any other reason. Mine is that feminism is too gynocentric to be an equality movement.

Anyway, I'm not going to expand on that since it will derail the thread off-topic

I really wish people knew what feminist actually means before they start throwing it around like some kind of a slur or epithet:

fem·i·nism [fem-uh-niz-uhm] :

noun

1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

2. (sometimes initial capital letter) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women. The doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men

That just seethes with female superiority, doesn't it! Sisterhood is powerful! Down with patriarchy! WOMYN! WOMYN!!!!!
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There's sexism and there's sexism - the Northern lords ignoring Catelyn's humble, pragmatic advice seeking peace because she has the sweet, tender heart of a woman? That's worse than Lady Olenna making fun, in private, of Mace Tyrell as an oaf? Since it actually doesn't effect anything, I don't think it's all that horrific.

This is conflating power and prejudice to a large degree. What you're basically saying is that since Oleanna is not in a position of (as much) power as the northern lords, she cannot possibly be as sexist as they are. Which is completely, utterly wrong. Sexism has a bigger impact when held by those in power, yes, but that goes equally for any prejudice.

What's being discussed here isn't Oleanna's opportunities to enact her misandry, it's the fact she holds that prejudice. Which she clearly does, to a much more radical degree than the Northern lords as evidenced by their refusal to take Catelyn's advice (there are probably other examples of them being more sexist, but that's the one you chose to bring up).

Rebuffing advice on base of gender is way milder than basing the worth of a gender purely on their reproductive capabilities. No matter how much power you currently hold.

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This is conflating power and prejudice to a large degree. What you're basically saying is that since Oleanna is not in a position of (as much) power as the northern lords, she cannot possibly be as sexist as they are.

That's not quite what I am saying, but you're a few steps behind the conversation.

However, I do think that this:

Rebuffing advice on base of gender is way milder than basing the worth of a gender purely on their reproductive capabilities. No matter how much power you currently hold.

..is a total straw man argument and also risible.

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An anti-feminist is anyone who opposes feminism (on its entirety) for whatever reason. This can include anything, from the definition given by Lala to any other reason. Mine is that feminism is too gynocentric to be an equality movement.

Anyway, I'm not going to expand on that since it will derail the thread off-topic

That's funny (bolded part). Whatever we may feel now, it was needed and served a purpose. I also feel that it went too far in certain instances, but overall was beneficial for women.

But this is not the thread for that discussion.

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I really wish people knew what feminist actually means before they start throwing it around like some kind of a slur or epithet:

fem·i·nism [fem-uh-niz-uhm] :

noun

1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

2. (sometimes initial capital letter) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women. The doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men

That just seethes with female superiority, doesn't it! Sisterhood is powerful! Down with patriarchy! WOMYN! WOMYN!!!!!

This made me LOL. I'd go burn some bras but I'm particularly attached to my lingerie and it's expensive :crying:

This is conflating power and prejudice to a large degree. What you're basically saying is that since Oleanna is not in a position of (as much) power as the northern lords, she cannot possibly be as sexist as they are. Which is completely, utterly wrong. Sexism has a bigger impact when held by those in power, yes, but that goes equally for any prejudice.

What's being discussed here isn't Oleanna's opportunities to enact her misandry, it's the fact she holds that prejudice. Which she clearly does, to a much more radical degree than the Northern lords as evidenced by their refusal to take Catelyn's advice (there are probably other examples of them being more sexist, but that's the one you chose to bring up).

Rebuffing advice on base of gender is way milder than basing the worth of a gender purely on their reproductive capabilities. No matter how much power you currently hold.

Generally agree with this - I think there already has been a consensus that Lady Olenna's remarks are not as troubling as the misogyny that is pervasive in Westeros - so let's not delve any deeper into "Could Lady Olenna have castrated some poor farmer's boy if she really really wanted to" - we all know she didn't want to and it's unproductive to a discussion of whether or not Lady Olenna is a character that exhibits sexist attitudes.

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I really wish people knew what feminist actually means before they start throwing it around like some kind of a slur or epithet:

fem·i·nism [fem-uh-niz-uhm] :

noun

1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

2. (sometimes initial capital letter) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women. The doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men

Well the definitions you provide are clearly gynocentric so...

That's funny (bolded part). Whatever we may feel now, it was needed and served a purpose. I also feel that it went too far in certain instances, but overall was beneficial for women.

(emphasis on the past tense) I certainly agree that it served its purpose

Anyway, no more derailment from me, sorry for the off-topic.

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Well the definitions you provide are clearly gynocentric so...

Gynocentric?

oooooookay.

Would you think it gynocentric to say "he doctrine advocating the diminishment and weakening of the social, political, and all other rights of men so that they are equal to those of women."? Because that is anti-feminism.

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