How did Eddard knew where exactly is Lyanna?

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Ned running down the streets of kings landing

WHERE IS MY FAMILY! He shouts as he shakes a frightened peasent

[yasasbandara]

And you know how? There is zero information on this. We don't even know how, what and from whom Brandon learned, we don't even know whether his act was fuelled by rightful wrath at the supposed rapist, or an offended sense of honour at the man who seduced his sister.

Whatever information they had made Robert believe that Rhaegar raped Ned's sister hundreds of time.

From Book1 - "“Unspeakable?” the king roared. “What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?”"

That's the information they had. But there's no point in arguing because information that Brandon had may have been different.

So, OK. Brandon is responsible for the war and prince and sister are not guilty. Case closed.

First, you DON'T know how Aerys would have responded to e.g. a diplomatically phrased inquiry to help find Lyanna sent by ravenmail. Second, Aerys' mental state grossly deteriorated during the Rebellion, so his responses before it stated wouldn't have been quite the same. Third, a deathwish against the Crown Prince is something that NO monarch can tolerate, sane or not.

Mental state before the Rebellion = Held sons and called them trairors. Sent for fathers. When fathers came, killed all. When one person demanded trial by combat, dressed him in mail, tide him up and asked to combat against carefully titrated fire. Cooked the man slowly. Asked the son to watch and strangle himself trying to free father.

So you're saying that we don't know his mental condition (and how he could have responded) before Rebellion? Did I read the wrong book?

[Ygrain]

Whatever information they had made Robert believe that Rhaegar raped Ned's sister hundreds of time.

From Book1 - "“Unspeakable?” the king roared. “What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?”"

That's the information they had. But there's no point in arguing because information that Brandon had may have been different.

Aye, and there is no telling what Rickard might have known or not. Official version fourteen years later is really inconclusive

So, OK. Brandon is responsible for the war and prince and sister are not guilty. Case closed.

Anyone said anywhere that Aerys' out of scale response was absolved? Brandon acted stupidly, yes, but it was Aerys who escalated the situation.

Mental state before the Rebellion = Held sons and called them trairors. Sent for fathers. When fathers came, killed all. When one person demanded trial by combat, dressed him in mail, tide him up and asked to combat against carefully titrated fire. Cooked the man slowly. Asked the son to watch and strangle himself trying to free father.

So you're saying that we don't know his mental condition (and how he could have responded) before Rebellion? Did I read the wrong book?

And prior that? Was he burning Lord Paramounts and demanding heads left and right? Brandon threatened his heir, and with Aerys' paranoia of his own safety after the Duskendale, this triggered a massive bout of mad behaviour. - Perhaps I should have said "before Brandon's act" instead of "before the Rebellion", as this was really the point when things went south.

[jon stark I]

Please stop accusing Brandon and other Starks.If you really want to blame someone then blame TARGERYAN family.Start with Rheagar and continue with Aerys please.

[Ygrain]

Please stop accusing Brandon and other Starks.If you really want to blame someone then blame TARGERYAN family.Start with Rheagar and continue with Aerys please.

And why? What Brandon did was treason. You are not allowed to go vigilante in RL, either, no matter how justified the cause.

[yasasbandara]

Please stop accusing Brandon and other Starks.If you really want to blame someone then blame TARGERYAN family.Start with Rheagar and continue with Aerys please.

Actually no one wants to blame Rhaegar for the war. So, arguments are made specifically so that blame is directed at the mad king and Brandon.

Honourable Rhaegar Was just trying to save the world. He wanted to create the “promised prince”. But his own son wouldn’t do. So he created another one inside the belly of a healthier girl. He was thinking about the good of the realm when he eloped with the Stark girl. So, how can we blame him?

He kept the Stark girl hidden for the good of the realm. His kingsguards tried to stop a brother from seeing his dying sister one last time. But that was also for the good of the realm (promised prince?). Rhaegar is totally blameless.

[yasasbandara]

And why? What Brandon did was treason. You are not allowed to go vigilante in RL, either, no matter how justified the cause.

What about saving the lives of 1/2 million innocent men, women and children? Is the action of Jamie treason?

[Rahgh Neqaj]

The more interesting point is that Eddard travelled to the ToJ with such a small number of people and that Robert wasn't part of it. Of course Robert may have been busy governing his new kingdom but he fought a revolution to get his beloved Lyanna back. Seems a bit strange that he leaves the matter of rescuing her from the ToJ to Eddard. Did, maybe, someone tell Robert that Lyanna was dead? (Varys, Eddard, Jon?)

Also, Eddard had led a reasonably large army of Northmen in two major battles (Battle of the Bells, Battle of the Trident), to the sacking of Kings Landing and probably even down to Storm's End. So why is he travelling to the ToJ with only six friends instead of at least a small contingent (50 or so) of soldiers? Did he know that there were only three enemies waiting for him there? Did he have an inkling that Lyanna might not be happy to return to Robert? That he might have to spirit her away to sanctuary somewhere? (Which is sort of difficult if you have 50 witnesses around you.) Of course it might have been diplomatic considerations that he didn't want to lead too much of a force into Dorne - if I understand it correctly, the ToJ is on the Dornish side of the Prince's Pass.

The other thing I don't understand is why those three Kings Guard Knights and Lyanna remained at the ToJ after the sack of KL. Certainly, news would have needed some time to reach the ToJ and travelling is not the best idea for heavily pregnant women (assuming Lyanna was pregnant with Jon, of course) but Eddards duty to relieve Storm's End should have been enough of a delay for them to get moving. Staying at the ToJ seems pure suicide. Of course Ser Gerold says that the Kingsguard does not run but if they were protecting the legitimate heir to the iron throne even those three [sarcasm]towers of honour[/sarcasm] should have realised that the ToJ is indefensible, that three knights offer not enough protection and that a strategic retreat, some disguise and a good sanctuary (exile) to hide in would be much more in the interest of the heir to the throne than stubbornly comitting suicide-by-proxy at the ToJ.

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ETA: Another interesting point: When Eddard dreams of the skirmish at the ToJ in AGoT 39, the start of the skirmish is described as:

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

Wraiths? Shadow Swords? I'm pretty sure that Ned didn't posess shadow magic but the rest of the dream is surprisingly accurate without hints of surreal distortion and now he dreams of his friends as wraiths with shadow swords? Five of his friends died so dreaming of them as Wraiths might be understandable but Howland Reed lived. Dreaming him as a wraith makes no sense.

[King Robert's Warhammer]

Why did Robert not plan on liberating her himself? If I was Bob I would have made getting my ass to the ToJ my top priority. Neds the next best for a rescue but Robert would have wanted to be the main man I feel.

[Ygrain]

The more interesting point is that Eddard travelled to the ToJ with such a small number of people and that Robert wasn't part of it. Of course Robert may have been busy governing his new kingdom but he fought a revolution to get his beloved Lyanna back. Seems a bit strange that he leaves the matter of rescuing her from the ToJ to Eddard. Did, maybe, someone tell Robert that Lyanna was dead? (Varys, Eddard, Jon?)

First and foremost, Robert and Ned broke up over the murder of Rhaegar's children, so there would be no communication between the two, and second, we do not know when and how Ned learned about Lyanna's location - it is possible that he learned only after he left KL.

Also, Eddard had led a reasonably large army of Northmen in two major battles (Battle of the Bells, Battle of the Trident), to the sacking of Kings Landing and probably even down to Storm's End. So why is he travelling to the ToJ with only six friends instead of at least a small contingent (50 or so) of soldiers? Did he know that there were only three enemies waiting for him there? Did he have an inkling that Lyanna might not be happy to return to Robert? That he might have to spirit her away to sanctuary somewhere? (Which is sort of difficult if you have 50 witnesses around you.) Of course it might have been diplomatic considerations that he didn't want to lead too much of a force into Dorne - if I understand it correctly, the ToJ is on the Dornish side of the Prince's Pass.

Most probably, as well as that he might find her in the circumstances revealing that she went willingly.

The other thing I don't understand is why those three Kings Guard Knights and Lyanna remained at the ToJ after the sack of KL. Certainly, news would have needed some time to reach the ToJ and travelling is not the best idea for heavily pregnant women (assuming Lyanna was pregnant with Jon, of course) but Eddards duty to relieve Storm's End should have been enough of a delay for them to get moving. Staying at the ToJ seems pure suicide. Of course Ser Gerold says that the Kingsguard does not run but if they were protecting the legitimate heir to the iron throne even those three [sarcasm]towers of honour[/sarcasm] should have realised that the ToJ is indefensible, that three knights offer not enough protection and that a strategic retreat, some disguise and a good sanctuary (exile) to hide in would be much more in the interest of the heir to the throne than stubbornly comitting suicide-by-proxy at the ToJ.

Jon was born within a month since the Sack - that's just about enough time for the news to reach ToJ. Ned most probably turned up before their arrangements to leave were ready. Also, as the location was supposed to be secret, they may not have been aware that it was compromised, and secrecy was their best protection.

ETA: Another interesting point: When Eddard dreams of the skirmish at the ToJ in AGoT 39, the start of the skirmish is described as:

Wraiths? Shadow Swords? I'm pretty sure that Ned didn't posess shadow magic but the rest of the dream is surprisingly accurate without hints of surreal distortion and now he dreams of his friends as wraiths with shadow swords? Five of his friends died so dreaming of them as Wraiths might be understandable but Howland Reed lived. Dreaming him as a wraith makes no sense.

It was a fever dream, so, whole its gist was something that Ned had dreamt of repeatedly, the wraiths were just a dream aspect.

Why did Robert not plan on liberating her himself? If I was Bob I would have made getting my ass to the ToJ my top priority. Neds the next best for a rescue but Robert would have wanted to be the main man I feel.

At first, Robert was busy fighting to keep his head on his neck, and the knowledge of Rhaegar's hideout was hardly public.

[honeyed chicken]

Maybe Varys told him?

At that point a few people in Aerys circle knew where Rhaegar had run off to, because they fetched him there

That's the prickly part.

If Varys knew and told Robert (which he might do to curry favor with the new king and distance himself from the Targs), Robert would have chopped Jon (assuming R+L=J) into little bits and fed them to the crabs at Storms End. OR Varys would have kept the knowledge to himself and spirited the child to safety in Essos as he did with Aegon.

Either way, I'm pretty sure Varys did not know.

My pet theory is that Lyanna had a way of getting messages to her brother indirectly through another family member or friend.

[three-eyed monkey]

7 Deaths, I just think Robert didn't know where to look. I don't think Ned did either when he was at KL, and probably only learned at SE or later.

I also think Ned probably didn't want Robert with him. Bob might have been a bit too hot-headed or inflammatory in such a delicate situation. It's also possible that Ned feared what he might find, i.e. Lyanna with child.

And I think Ned only took six trusted friends because he pretty much figured that he would be facing the 3 missing KG. Everyone else had dipped their banners. It seems to me that Ned would have preferred a diplomatic solution to the situation, but if the shit hit the fan, as it did, then he though seven against three would do it, and he was right I suppose.

[jon stark I]

And why? What Brandon did was treason. You are not allowed to go vigilante in RL, either, no matter how justified the cause.

Brandon used harsh words but what he demanded was actually a trial by battle.Brandon called Rhaegar to meet his death yes those are the wrong words but the meaning is actually calling someone out for a fight to save his sisters honor and life.It doesn't matter whether she went willingly or not and if she went willingly someone would have known.If Rickard knew then Rickards maester would have known and Eddard would have learn just like Benjen and all the other Northern Lords.But noone even says a thing about Lyanna going willingly.

I really can't understand you so kidnapping a noble girl(soon to be wedded to his cousin) while being married and having two children is not treason but demanding to punish/fight for both your house and sisters honor is a treason.

The real jerk is Rheagar but because of his very emotional character and handsome look (also because of Aerys being a complete nightmare in for a very long time ) made him look cool.To me Rhaegar is nothing compared to Robb or Ned.Even if he learned about the Prince that was promised had to be Lyannas son he still could have married Lyanna (by asking her hand from Rickard ).Ofcourse I think he should have divorced( I never heard anything like that in all these books maybe there isn't a thing like divorcing ) because I think hving two wifes is still a gross idea.

But what did Rhagar do?He kidnapped Lyanna.I have to say it there is a thing called chain reaction and by kidnapping Lyanna Rhaegar finally added that last drop of water that needed for people to rebel.

[Ygrain]

Brandon used harsh words but what he demanded was actually a trial by battle.Brandon called Rhaegar to meet his death yes those are the wrong words but the meaning is actually calling someone out for a fight to save his sisters honor and life.

And are you allowed to demand a trial by battle against a Crown Prince in the first place?

It doesn't matter whether she went willingly or not and if she went willingly someone would have known. If Rickard knew then Rickards maester would have known and Eddard would have learn just like Benjen and all the other Northern Lords.But noone even says a thing about Lyanna going willingly.

Pretty much unbased assumptions. If Rickard did know, it doesn't mean that his maester was involved, or that he would spread the news for all the North to see.

I really can't understand you so kidnapping a noble girl(soon to be wedded to his cousin) while being married and having two children is not treason but demanding to punish/fight for both your house and sisters honor is a treason.

Treason is a betrayal against the monarch/state, so, no, kidnapping is not a treason unless you kidnap a member of the royal family. And, being royal is exactly what makes the difference here and why Brandon got into so much trouble: a violent action against a member of a royal family is classified as treasonous act.

The real jerk is Rheagar but because of his very emotional character and handsome look (also because of Aerys being a complete nightmare in for a very long time ) made him look cool.To me Rhaegar is nothing compared to Robb or Ned.Even if he learned about the Prince that was promised had to be Lyannas son he still could have married Lyanna (by asking her hand from Rickard ).Ofcourse I think he should have divorced( I never heard anything like that in all these books maybe there isn't a thing like divorcing ) because I think hving two wifes is still a gross idea.

That under the condition that both RIckard and Aerys would agree, especially the latter - if Aerys forbade it, for no better reason than mistrusting Rhaegar, it would be disastrous - Rhaegar would never be able to enlist the help of his KG friends as they couldn't defy the king's order, and he himself would be committing treason by doing so.

But what did Rhagar do?He kidnapped Lyanna.I have to say it there is a thing called chain reaction and by kidnapping Lyanna Rhaegar finally added that last drop of water that needed for people to rebel.

If this was true, then RIckard would have called banners right away and wouldn't obey Aerys' summons to answer for Brandon's crime. Aerys added the last drop, by murdering Brandon and Rickard and demanding the heads of Ned and Robert who weren't involved in any treasonous activity.

[corbon]

Please stop accusing Brandon and other Starks.If you really want to blame someone then blame TARGERYAN family.Start with Rheagar and continue with Aerys please.

Please read the books.

Brandon entered a difficult situation and did the worst and most irresponsible and least useful thing he could, when it wasn't even his place to respond. Once he acted the way he did, Lyanna became irrelevant. She should have been central, but his actions became central instead. He bears responsibility for that.

Aerys bears responsibility for escalating even further.

What about saving the lives of 1/2 million innocent men, women and children? Is the action of Jamie treason?

Technically yes, most definitely. Consideration is given for the circumstances though (no one in westeros knows the circumstances, so they don't give him any consideration).

Brandon's action bears no similarities. He does nothing toward saving lives. Not even Lyanna's.

The more interesting point is that Eddard travelled to the ToJ with such a small number of people and that Robert wasn't part of it. Of course Robert may have been busy governing his new kingdom but he fought a revolution to get his beloved Lyanna back. Seems a bit strange that he leaves the matter of rescuing her from the ToJ to Eddard. Did, maybe, someone tell Robert that Lyanna was dead? (Varys, Eddard, Jon?)

Its pretty obvious that Robert doesn't know anything.

He also did not fight a revolution to get Lyanna back. Jon Arryn fought a rebellion that Robert joined through no real choice, to keep Ned and Robert's heads on their shoulders and to depose a Mad Tyrant who had Gone Too Far.

15 years later Robert has changed things around in his memory, because thats the sort of delusionist he is - its necessary for his mental health. He can be the noble hero, fighting to win back his beloved. And his miserable marriage is all Rhaegar's fault, because everything would have been perfect with Lyanna.

The facts are:

i) The rebellion did not start when Lyanna was abducted. It did not start when Brandon was arrested. It started when, after the judicial murder of Brandon and Rickard, Aerys order Roobert and Ned's heads sent to him as well. And Jon Arryn said "up yours".

ii) Robert didn't start the rebellion, Jon Arryn did, and Lyanna had nothing to do with it.

iii) Robert preferred to get drunk with his friends over hanging out with Lyanna at Harrenhal. So much love there...

iv) Lyanna knew what Robert was like and was unimpressed. Ned didn't argue.

v) while 'pining for his abducted love' Robert went through the entire brothel at the crossroads, and probably plenty of others too. So much love there...

Did he have an inkling that Lyanna might not be happy to return to Robert? That he might have to spirit her away to sanctuary somewhere? (Which is sort of difficult if you have 50 witnesses around you.)

Of course he did. He knew what Lyanna thought of Robert - they had that conversation at Winterfell. And he was at Harrenhal when Lyanna cried at Rhaegar's singing and dumped a glass of wine over Benjen's head when he teased her about it - that scene says teenage crush 1000x, and Cersei and others reinforce that saying all the girls fell for Rhaegar (even Cersei, who truly loves only herself (Jaime is her reflection, not his own person, and her kids are extensions of hereself, not their own little people, to her)).

The other thing I don't understand is why those three Kings Guard Knights and Lyanna remained at the ToJ after the sack of KL. Certainly, news would have needed some time to reach the ToJ and travelling is not the best idea for heavily pregnant women (assuming Lyanna was pregnant with Jon, of course) but Eddards duty to relieve Storm's End should have been enough of a delay for them to get moving. Staying at the ToJ seems pure suicide.

Secrecy is their best shield.

Its hard to know if its been compromised though, until its too late.

7 Deaths, I just think Robert didn't know where to look. I don't think Ned did either when he was at KL, and probably only learned at SE or later.

I also think Ned probably didn't want Robert with him. Bob might have been a bit too hot-headed or inflammatory in such a delicate situation. It's also possible that Ned feared what he might find, i.e. Lyanna with child.

And I think Ned only took six trusted friends because he pretty much figured that he would be facing the 3 missing KG. Everyone else had dipped their banners. It seems to me that Ned would have preferred a diplomatic solution to the situation, but if the shit hit the fan, as it did, then he though seven against three would do it, and he was right I suppose.

Agreed in every respect, except I'm not sure he expected to have to fight the 3 KG. They should have been happy to go to Viserys...

Brandon used harsh words but what he demanded was actually a trial by battle.Brandon called Rhaegar to meet his death yes those are the wrong words but the meaning is actually calling someone out for a fight to save his sisters honor and life.

Sorry, but words matter. The words he used did not demand trial by battle. And no mention was was made of his sister at all.

You are making unfounded assumptions about Brandon's intent first, then demanding that everybody around knows what Brandon meant (according to you), as opposed to what he said.

Thats ridiculous.

It doesn't matter whether she went willingly or not and if she went willingly someone would have known.If Rickard knew then Rickards maester would have known and Eddard would have learn just like Benjen and all the other Northern Lords.But noone even says a thing about Lyanna going willingly.

Oh it matters very much whether she went willingly or not. Kidnapping and Elopement are very different 'crimes' with very different proportionate responses suitable.

There is also no necessity that Eddard would (later) know if Rickard knew. Note that the Winterfell Maester changed between then and Eddard returning to Winterfell after the war.

Its also highly probable that Eddard does know she went willingly. He certainly believes Lyanna was partly responsible for her own fate, and still holds Rhaegar in remarkably high regards for someone who kidnapped his beloved sister. He also suspiciously took only his most trusted companions to the ToJ, as if he knew what he found there wouldn't look good for Robert.

But why would he say anything? Robert's got his own ideas and is willing to murder babies over them. And if Lyanna went willingly, that opens up further ideas that lead towards the identity of Jon, so its dangerous. Best just to let Robert believe what he believes and hold secrets secret.

I really can't understand you so kidnapping a noble girl(soon to be wedded to his cousin) while being married and having two children is not treason but demanding to punish/fight for both your house and sisters honor is a treason.

Go look up treason in a dictionary.

And go read what Brandon actually said.

The real jerk is Rheagar but because of his very emotional character and handsome look (also because of Aerys being a complete nightmare in for a very long time ) made him look cool.To me Rhaegar is nothing compared to Robb or Ned.Even if he learned about the Prince that was promised had to be Lyannas son he still could have married Lyanna (by asking her hand from Rickard ).Ofcourse I think he should have divorced( I never heard anything like that in all these books maybe there isn't a thing like divorcing ) because I think hving two wifes is still a gross idea.

Chance are he did marry her - its the only thing that makes the presence of all3 KG at the ToJ makes sense.

But 'divorcing' Elia to do so is just stupid from multiple angles. Dhorne, succession, 3 heads of the dragon, etc etc.

Polygamy is a legal option for him and solves all problems.

You thinking its gross is utterly irrelevant. Also rather short sighted on your part, since really the polygamy is only a legal thing anyway, and it will actually physically be monogamy in all likelihood. Elia was an arranged marriage and he didn't love her, and getting pregnant is a risk to her life, so there is no reason for him to ever have sex with her again.

But what did Rhagar do?He kidnapped Lyanna.I have to say it there is a thing called chain reaction and by kidnapping Lyanna Rhaegar finally added that last drop of water that needed for people to rebel.

1) there is no evidence except the word of a man who is emotionally involved and not present, and a boy who wasn't born at the time, to say he kidnapped her. In short, its nothing more than Robert's fiction.

2) its factually incorrect to say that this item in the chain added the last drop necessary, even if you hold the nonsensical view that this link alone is the link to blame for the chain's effects. There. Was. No. Rebellion. At. That. Stage. It required Brandon's inflammatory idiocy and Aerys' reactions to Brandon's actions to spark the rebellion.

[Ser Lepus]

Why did Robert not plan on liberating her himself? If I was Bob I would have made getting my ass to the ToJ my top priority. Neds the next best for a rescue but Robert would have wanted to be the main man I feel.

At that point Robert and Ned weren't in speaking terms, due to Robert's refusal to punish the Lannister's for the murder of Elia and her children, so when Ned learned about Lyanna's location, he went there without telling Robert.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Brandon was out of line and needed to be punished regardless. Killing him was definitely an overreaction on Aerys's part. There is not one distinct cause for the rebellion but multiple ones. Sometimes shit just lines itself up.

[SaltpansResident]

Could Rhaegar have been told of the ToJ by Elia? Maybe they went there together at one point in their marriage? And then Ashara knew enough of the story after Elia's death to tell Ned?

It makes no sense to me that they would have sought refuge in Dorne unless there was a reason to believe that the Dornish would be ok with things. Elia was Dornish, she and Rhaegar had a good relationship, she knew she could never have children again, so maybe she told Rhaeger, "Look, hide your girlfriend on my old estate in Dorne till things look up." What screws this up in my mind though is that she was so sick I can't imagine her playing the confidante. Having Rhaegar's babies seems to have a been a near-fatal endeavor for the women who tried it.

[corbon]

Could Rhaegar have been told of the ToJ by Elia? Maybe they went there together at one point in their marriage? And then Ashara knew enough of the story after Elia's death to tell Ned?

Its not impossible, but there is no reason for it,

It makes no sense to me that they would have sought refuge in Dorne unless there was a reason to believe that the Dornish would be ok with things.

Why not?

Its an isolated, forsaken old tower in the marches. No one is around. How would the Dornish know? The whole point is secrecy.

[Ygrain]

Could Rhaegar have been told of the ToJ by Elia? Maybe they went there together at one point in their marriage? And then Ashara knew enough of the story after Elia's death to tell Ned?

It makes no sense to me that they would have sought refuge in Dorne unless there was a reason to believe that the Dornish would be ok with things. Elia was Dornish, she and Rhaegar had a good relationship, she knew she could never have children again, so maybe she told Rhaeger, "Look, hide your girlfriend on my old estate in Dorne till things look up." What screws this up in my mind though is that she was so sick I can't imagine her playing the confidante. Having Rhaegar's babies seems to have a been a near-fatal endeavor for the women who tried it.

ToJ was an abandoned watchtower in the Prince's Pass on the borders of Dorne - as there doesn't seem to be much traffic going that way, a pretty much abandoned location. What might have played a role in making this a place of choice for Rhaegar is the (relative) vicinity to Starfall as well as Summerhall (ToJ is approximately in between), so it is possible that Rhaegar knew of it from his previous trips to the south and knew that no-one ever came there.