Rethinking Romance: Love Stories of ASOIAF

[a free shadow]

Sneaky is good. :)

I enjoyed the reading :)

[Mini Ghost]

This is one of my favorite threads. Keep it up OP :bowdown:

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I love the Jamie Brienne romance, I still can't understand how anyone can deny it. Its plain as day.

[RhaenysBee]

I had the same problem! There are so few friendships in the story! :)

Exactly. It either turns into love or treachery :o It's sorta scary...

[Booknerd2]

Crap, it has been awhile but I got swamped at work. Lots of catching up now...

"I am a believer in Gendry & Arya and am delighted to find the subject being discussed with such openess without anyone screaming peado and sticking their fingers in their ears from reading Booknerds essays I have realised that a lot of the stuff with them seems to come from Gendry & not so much from Arya. Could it be more one sided? I always felt it was mutual but may have to re re read a bit in order to get my ideas straight. I had always seen it as an immature first crush type relationship rather than a fated one true love happy ever after romance. I kind of imagined them viewing one another as the one that got away with great fondness in years to come. But Booknerd you have made me wonder if they might end up together still. I never thought about Gendry being at the inn before and what that may mean."

by The Weirwoods Eyes

Thank you. Totally agree with you. This thread is awesome. I can't believe how much I have learned and how many new perspectives and opinions I've been exposed too. It really enriched my experience as a series reader and this is just the beginning. And that is when the best work comes out. So many posters articulating their opinions and being open to ideas and either taking something from it or disagreeing/offering differing takes with respect. But the OP's totally set the respectful,welcoming, and encouraging tone so I tip my wolf helm to LeCygne, DogLover, and Lala again.

"I too was initially concerned about Arya/Gendry sparking controversy, but we knew booknerd2 could do it justice, presenting it as a crush that has the potential to grow into something much more."

Thank you, DogLover! And I am so glad I was asked because it was awesome to do.

And quote is acting up on my laptop for some reason so I will be back...

[DogLover]

Robb and Jeyne are up next, folks. I'm thrilled and grateful that the highly regarded SeanF has kindly agreed to write an essay. Much thanks in advance, SeanF!

[DogLover]

Since neither Robb nor Jeyne has a POV, the reader experiences the romance between the two through Catelyn’s POV. Catelyn, who is racked with grief over the loss of Ned, Bran, Rickon, and her father, brings a sorrowful and haunting voice to her POVs and the reader can’t help but feel that something is going to go terribly wrong. As hard as Catelyn tries to put on a brave face and accept Jeyne, there is no joy—only trepidation.

Robb/Jeyne Scene-by-Scene Summary

Catelyn II: A Storm of Swords, Chapter 15

Robb returns to Riverrun from the west while Catelyn is confined for freeing Jaime Lannister. When Catelyn is called before Robb, she notices people she does not recognize: a boy acting as Robb’s squire, a young knight in a sand-colored surcoat with seashells, and older knight, and a handsome older woman with pretty maiden Catelyn thought might be the older woman’s daughter, as well as another girl close to Sansa’s age. Catelyn thinks the seashells are a sigil of a lesser house and she wonders if these people could be prisoners.

Concerned that Robb will judge her harshly for freeing Jaime, Catelyn quickly notices it’s not anger that she sees in Robb’s eyes, but apprehension, thinking it makes little sense.

Robb silences Lord Karstark after he confronts Catelyn over her decision to free Jaime, and acknowledges that what Catelyn did was out of love for Sansa and Arya and grief over the reported deaths of Bran and Rickon. Robb tells her “Love is not always wise, I’ve learned. It can lead us to great folly, but we follow our hearts…wherever they take us. Don’t we Mother?”

Catelyn asks for Robb’s forgiveness, to which he responds, “I have. I know what it is to love so greatly you can think of nothing else." Robb then dismisses everyone except Catelyn, the six strangers, and Edmure and Brynden. Catelyn asks the six strangers if they’re new to Robb’s cause. Robb, looking uncomfortable, introduces Catelyn to the six strangers, presenting Jeyne Westerling last.

The maid came forward last, and very shy. Robb took her hand. “Mother,” he said, “I have the great honor to present you the Lady Jeyne Westering. Lord Gawen’s elder daughter, and my…ah…my lady wife.”

Catelyn’s first thought is Robb is too young to take a wife, and then remembers he’s pledged to another. She then thinks “Mother have mercy, Robb, what have you done?”

After a moment of annoyance mixed with admiration for Robb’s astute handling of the marriage announcement, Catelyn is left with no choice but to welcome Jeyne.

“I have a new daughter,” she said, more stiffly than she’d intended. She kissed the terrified girl on both cheeks. “Be welcome to our hall and hearth.”

After Jeyne takes leave with her family to rest, Catelyn and Robb are left to speak more freely. Catelyn tells Robb Jeyne is lovely and the Westerlings worthy, but questions their loyalty, since they’re a house pledged to the Lannisters. Robb tells Catelyn that Jeyne’s father, Lord Gawen, has been taken captive by Jason Mallister and Robb and Jeyne married without his consent, placing him in danger and the possibility of Jeyne losing all. Catelyn is quick to let Robb know that he’s lost the Freys, causing him to wince. Catelyn then asks how many swords Jeyne brings. Robb glumly responds fifty swords and a dozen knights. He attempts to reassure Catelyn, as well as himself by responding, “Jeyne is bright as well as beautiful. And kind as well. She has a gentle heart.” Catelyn thinks to herself "It is swords you need, not gentle hearts. How could you do this, Robb? How could you be so heedless, so stupid? How could you be so…so very…young."

Robb continues to explain why he married Jeyne:

“I took her castle and she took my heart.” Robb smiled. “The crag was weakly garrisoned, so we took it by storm one night. Black Walder and the Smalljon led scaling parties over the walls, while I broke the main gate with a ram. I took an arrow in the arm just before Ser Rolph yielded us the castle. It seemed nothing at first, but it festered. Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of…of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon.” He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers’ names. “That night, she…she comforted me, Mother.”

Catleyn did not need to be told what sort of comfort Jeyne Westerling has offered her son. “And you were wed the next day.”

He looked her in the eyes, proud and miserable all at once. “It was the only honorable thing to do. She’s gentle and sweet, Mother, she will make me a good wife.”

Catelyn reminds him that while that may be well and true, it would be no consolation to Lord Frey. Catelyn then asks Robb what happened with the Freys after wedding Jeyne, letting him know how grievously he insulted House Frey. Robb hopes arranging another marriage might appease Lord Walder Frey if he’s willing to be reasonable, to which Catleyn responds:

“He is not reasonable. He is proud, and prickly to a fault. You know that. He wanted to be grandfather to a king. You will not appease him with the offer of two hoary old brigands and the second son of the fattest man in the Seven Kingdoms. Not only have you broken your oath, but you’ve slighted the honor of the Twins by choosing a bride from a lesser house.

Robb, angered by the perceived slight to the Westerlings, tells Catelyn that the Westerlings have better blood than the Freys, giving an account of the history of their line, which, Catelyn points out would only aggravate Lord Frey even more.

“All of which will only salt Lord Walder’s wounds. It has always rankled him that older houses look down on the Freys as upstarts. This insult is not the first he’s born, to hear him tell it. Jon Arryn was disinclined to foster his grandsons, and my father refused the offer of one of his daughters for Edmure.”

While Edmure is scolded by Robb and Brynden for foiling their plans, Catelyn thinks to herself, "If you had to fall into a woman's arms, my son, why couldn't they have been Margaery Tyrell's? The wealth and power of Highgarden could have made all the difference in the fighting yet to come. And perhaps Greywind would have liked the smell of her as well. "

Robb, after discussing Theon's betrayal, tries to think of a way to restore an alliance with the Freys.

"We must win back the Freys," said Robb. "With them, we still have some chance of success, however how small. Without them, I see no hope. I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires…apologies, honors, lands, gold…there must be something that would soothe his pride…"

"Not something," said Catelyn. "Someone."

Catelyn III: A Storm of Swords, Chapter 21

After Robb executes Lord Karstark, Jeyne seeks out Catelyn to discuss Robb's emotional state, which she describes as miserable, angry, and disconsolate. She asks for Catelyn's advice on how to best comfort Robb and be a good wife.

I want to be a good wife to him, I do, but I don't know how to help. To cheer him, or comfort him. I don't know what he needs. Please, my lady, you're his mother, tell me what I should do."

Catelyn, who wishes her own father was available to provide her with advice, does her best to impart her own experience and wisdom to Jeyne, letting her know that sometimes the best thing to do is nothing.

Jeyne, child, you have wed the north, as I did…and in the north, the winters will come." She tried to smile. "Be patient. Be understanding. He loves you and he needs you, and he will come back to you soon enough. This very night, perhaps. Be there when he does. That is all I can tell you."

Jeyne takes Catelyn's advice to heart assuring Catelyn that she'll be there for Robb when he has need of her. As she makes her leave, Catelyn stops her and tells her that Robb also needs an heir. Jeyne smiles at Catelyn and informs her that her own mother has been giving her a posset every morning that will make her more fertile, and has even told Robb she's sure to birth him twins that they'll name Eddard and Brandon. Jeyne, while blushing, also tells Catelyn that they try for an heir almost every day, sometimes even twice or more. Jeyne assures Catelyn that she'll be with child soon.

After Jeyne leaves Catelyn with her ailing father, Catelyn thinks that Jeyne does have a good heart, as well has good hips.

Catelyn IV: A Storm of Swords, Chapter 36

After Lord Hoster's funeral service, Lothar Frey calls upon Robb, asking for an audience. Robb quickly agrees, telling Lothar that it was never his intent to sow discord between the two families, with Jeyne chiming in to say she never wanted to be the cause of it. Lothar responds with understanding and forgiveness: "I understand, as does my lord father. He instructed me to say that he was young once, and well remembers what it is like to lose one's heart to beauty." Catelyn treats these words with skepticism, thinking that Lord Frey has only treated his wives as bedwarmers and brood mares.

Catelyn V: A Storm of Swords, Chapter 46

Before departing to the Twins for the marriage between Edmure Tully and Roslin Frey, Robb bids his new bride farewell three times: once before the heart tree in the godswood; again beneath the portcullis where Jeyne embraced him for a long time with an even longer kiss; and the third time when she rode out after Robb to beg Robb to take her with him. Catelyn notices Robb is moved as much as embarrassed. Catelyn notes that Robb speaks to Jeyne gently, but sees that Robb is also angry that she's put him on the spot in front of his army.

When Robb and Jeyne make their final goodbyes and Jeyne departs, Lothar frey comments to Catelyn about Jeyne's loving nature.

"Queen Jeyne has a loving heart, I see," said Lame Lothar Frey to Catelyn. "Not unlike my own sisters. Why, I would wager a guess that even now Roslin is dancing round the Twins chanting, "Lady Tully, Lady Tully, Lady Roslin Tully.' By the morrow she'll be holding swatches of Riverrun red-and-blue to her cheek to picture how she'll look in her bride's cloak."

As they move on toward the Twins, Catelyn reflects that it was at her insistence that Jeyne stay behind, as she felt it best not to further insult Lord Frey. Robb was reluctant and thought Lord Walder would think her absence an insult, as well. Catelyn, fully aware of Lord Walder's nature, wisely warns Robb that Lord Walder "has a sharp tongue and longer memory."

"I do not doubt that you are strong enough to suffer an old man's rebukes as the price of his allegiance, but you have too much of your father in you to sit there while he insults Jeyne to her face."

Robb could not deny the sense of that. Yet all the same, he resents me for it, Catelyn thought wearily. He misses Jeyne already, and some part of him blames me for her absence, though he knows it was good counsel.

Robb, Catelyn, Edmure, and army, delayed by rains, make camp at Oldstones. Catelyn finds Robb looking solemnly at a sepulcher that holds the remains of Tristifer IV. Catleyn tells Robb the history of Tristifer, known as the Hammer of Justice. His heir, Tristifer V, was heir not his equal, losing the kingdom, castle, and the last of the line. It was with Tristifer V that House Mudd died after ruling the riverlands for a thousand years before the Andals arrived.

"His heir failed him." Robb ran a hand over the rough weathered stone. "I had hoped to leave Jeyne with child…we tried often enough, but I'm not certain…"

Catelyn VI: A Storm of Swords, Chapter 50

Robb and party arrive at the Twins. After Robb recognizes how much he's wronged the Freys, and how much he needs them, Catelyn immediately advises to partake in any refreshment offered, and if none is offered, to ask.

When the Freys ride out to greet Robb, they immediately notice Jeyne is absent.

"I do not see the woman."

By the woman Ser Ryman meant Jeyne Westerling, all knew. Lady Cateyln smiled apologetically. "Queen Jeyne was weary after so much travel, sers. No doubt she will be pleased to visit when times are more settled."

"My grandfather will be displeased." Though Black Walder had sheathed his sword, his tone was no friendlier. "I've told him much of the lady, and he wished to behold her with his own eyes."

When Robb and Walder Frey meet, Lord Frey asks about Robb's bride.

"And where's your bride, Your Grace? The fair Queen Jeyne. A Westerling of the Crag, I'm told, heh."

"I left her at Riverrun, my lord. She was too weary for more travel, as we told Ser Ryman."

"That makes me grievous sad. I wanted to behold her with mine own eyes. We all did, heh. Isn't that so, my lady?"

Pale wispy Lady Frey seemed startled that she would be called upon to speak. "Y-yes, my lord. We all so wanted to pay homage to Queen Jeyne. She must be fair to look on."

"She is most fair, my lady." There was an icy stillness in Robb's voice that reminded Catelyn of his father.

The old man either did not hear it or refused to pay it any heed. "Fairer than my own get, heh? Elsewise how could her face and form have made the King's Grace forget his solemn promise."

Catelyn notes that Robb accepts Frey's admonition with dignity while apologizing, insisting he's come to make amends and beg for forgiveness. Frey is not so easily appeased.

"Apologies, heh. Yes, you vowed to make one, I recall. I'm old but I don't forget such things. Not like some kings, it seems. The young remember nothing when they see a pretty face and a nice firm pair of teats, isn't that so? I was the same. Some might say I still am, heh heh. They'd be wrong, though, wrong as you were. But now you're here to make amends. It was my girls you spurned, though. Mayhaps it's them should hear you beg for pardon, Your Grace. My maiden girls. Here, have a look at them."

After Lord Frey names off his daughters and granddaughters (sort of). Robb compliments them, saying they are all lovely to which Lord Frey responds with a snort and a sarcastic remark:

And some say my eyes are bad. Some will do well enough, I suppose. Others…well, it makes no matter. They weren't good enough for the King in the North, heh. Now what is it you have to say?"

Robb apologies to the ladies, telling them kings above all should keep their promise, but he fell in love with another and it wasn't intended as a slight against them.

After Roslin is introduced to Edmure's delight, Robb asks for bread and salt. Lord Frey accommodates and sees that they are served wine, bread, cheese, and butter. While being served, Catelyn feels more at ease and thinks, "Now we should be safe."

Catelyn VII: A Storm of Swords, Chapter 52

Edmure and Roslin are married. Catelyn wonders “was there a wedding less joyful”—the music is cacophony, the food is unappetizing, and the hall overly crowded. Catelyn, unhappy with the fare, does recognize that at least Lord Frey did not skimp on the drink.

During the bedding ceremony, Catelyn notices Robb doesn’t join the revelry and thinks that would be another slight to Lord Frey, but then takes note others stayed behind as well. Catelyn tenses with worry and fear, and then hears “The Rains of Castamere.” She quickly goes after Edwyn Frey, and grabbing his arm, goes cold all over when she feels the chainmail beneath his sleeve. Catelyn slaps Edwyn, and when Robb tries to block Edwyn’s way, Catelyn sees a quarrel stuck in his side while another pierces his leg. As the massacre continues, Catelyn is shot in the back and begs for mercy. As Robb struggles to his knees with arrows in his leg, side, and chest, Lord Frey taunts him.

“Heh,” Lord Walder cackled at Robb, “the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I’ll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh.”

Catelyn, grabbing Jinglebells, places a dagger to his throat and begs for Robb’s release. She tells Robb to go, if not for her, for Jeyne.

“Jeyne?” Robb grabbed the edge of the table and forced himself to stand. “Mother,” he said, “Grey Wind…”

Catelyn tells Lord Walder that she’ll take Jinglebells life, but Walder tells her he’s of no use. At that point, Lord Bolton stabs Robb through his heart. Catelyn, mad with grief, kills Jinglebells in retaliation. And then her throat is slit.

Jaime VII: A Feast for Crows, Chapter 45

Jaime, after seeing that Riverrun has been yielded to Emmon Frey, meets Sybell Spicer and Jeyne. He immediately thinks that Jeyne, who, if pregnant, could be more dangerous than the Blackfish, does not look dangerous at all. He sees a willowy girl with narrow hips not much older than fifteen or sixteen, noting that she's more awkward than graceful. Jaime finds her pretty enough, but she's hardly "a girl to lose a kingdom for."

Jeyne's face is puffy from crying and she has a scab on her head. Jaime asks what happened and her mother replies she had to forcibly remove Jeyne's crown from her head.

"It was mine." Jeyne sobbed. "You had no right. Robb had it made for me. I loved him."

Sybell Spicer attempts to slap Jeyne, but Jaime stops her and turns his attention to Jeyne.

"I am sorry for your loss. The boy had courage, I'll give him that. There is a question I must ask you. Are you carrying his child, my lady?"

Jeyne burst from her chair and would have fled the room if the guard at the door had not seized her by the arm. "She is not," said Lady Sybell, as her daughter struggled to escape. "I made certain of that, as your lord father bid me."

Jaime reflects that Tywin was not a man to leave such detail overlooked, and then dismisses Jeyne, who flees the room sobbing.

Jaime asks Sybell what more she expects from the Lannisters. Sybell tells him Tywin promised to marry Jeyne and her younger sister to lords or heirs. Jaime considers the Westerling's impoverished state and Sybell Spicer's own lowborn line, recalling that Sybell's grandmother was a half-mad witch from the east. He tells her that Jeyne will have to wait at least two years before she can marry again, lest she become pregnant, stirring rumors that it could be Robb Stark's.

Jaime dismisses Sybell after telling her, "Your daughter is worth more than ten of you, my lady."

When the Westerlings depart, Jaime notices Jeyne is riding with her eyes downcast and beneath her cloak her fine clothes have been torn.

She ripped them herself, as a mark of mourning, Jaime realized. That could not have pleased her mother. He found himself wondering if Cersei would tear her gown if she should ever hear that he was dead.

[SeanF]

Rethinking Romance – The Perils of Romance

There seems no doubt to me that Robb and Jeyne were genuinely in love. Robb’s excuse to his mother for wedding her was to spare her honour, after taking her virginity the previous night. Yet, kings rarely feel obliged to marry women that they’ve slept with; still less, the daughters of their political enemies. Catelyn notes that Jeyne alone is able to make her son happy, as his fortunes deteriorate, and the couple clearly enjoy the physical side of marriage. In Jaime’s final chapter, in A Feast for Crows, he notes that Jeyne tore her clothes in mourning for Robb, and refused to give up the crown that he had given her.

Political marriages are the norm, among the nobility, in the series, and can appear very offensive to modern readers. They can be terrible, as we see with Sansa’s forcible wedding to Tyrion, or the weddings of various unwanted daughters to Walder Frey. Perhaps the worst example of all was Viserys’ willingness to trade his sister to Khal Drogo, in return for the promise of an army. However, the marriage between Robb Stark and Jeyne Westerling shows that love matches can have disastrous consequences, and that political marriages are not necessarily a bad thing.

The political consequences of this wedding are terrible. Almost from the start, Robb realises that he has made a dreadful political mistake. As he says to his mother “Love’s not always wise I’ve learned. But we follow our hearts………………wherever they take us.” Catelyn herself is appalled, although she knows that she is in no strong position to criticise her son, after he forgave her for releasing Jaime. Internally she comments How could you do this? How could you be so heedless, so stupid…. Both Robb and Catelyn realise that Walder Frey will be mortally offended by Robb’s breach of promise to marry his daughter, and will break off his alliance with them. Unfortunately, they don’t appreciate just how offended he is, and the lengths he will go to get revenge. The marriage was not the only reason why Robb lost his crown and his life, but it was one of the major causes. Walder Frey would surely have switched sides, after the Blackwater, but I doubt even he would have murdered Robb, Catelyn, and their followers, when they were his guests.

Nor do either of them realise just how treacherous is Jeyne’s mother Sybel Spicer. She plots with Tywin Lannister to betray Robb Stark, and prevent her daughter from becoming pregnant, by feeding her contraceptives. Her plotting proves disastrous for both Robb and Catelyn, as well as for her own family. Her son, Ser Raynald is murdered at the Red Wedding, and the last we see of Jeyne, her life hangs by a thread, as Jaime has ordered her to be murdered if any attempt is made to rescue her. The fact that her brother has been made Lord of Castamere (itself a ruin) must be very cold comfort for her. The promise she was given, of a marriage to the Lannisters for her younger son, turns out to be an offer of marriage to Gerion Lannister’s natural daughter. Not for the first time, the Lannisters’ reward for treachery turns out to be a hollow one.

In a lot of ways, the marriage between Robb and Jeyne mirrors that between Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville in real life. Like Robb, Edward was a young king with a superb military reputation. Like Jeyne, Elizabeth was the daughter of an impoverished lord, who was a political opponent, and who brought him no resources of wealth or military power. The pair of them got quietly married by a country priest, and presented Edward’s followers with a fait accompli. And, as with Robb, Edward lost the support of one his most powerful supporters, the Earl of Warwick, who began plotting with his enemies to destroy him. Although Edward held onto his throne, he came very close to losing it due to Warwick’s enmity, was Warwick’s prisoner for some months, and at one point was deposed.

The lesson from this is that love matches are a luxury that kings and high lords can not indulge, either in real medieval settings, or in the series. The well-being of their families and thousands of dependants can depend very much on who they get married to, and the wrong decision can cost them very dear. Prince Rhaegar learned this to his cost, when he eloped with Lyanna, setting in motion a train of events that wiped out his family The royalty and nobility of Westeros are privileged above all other people, but their privileges come at a price. They forget this at their peril.

[SeanF]

Robb and Jeyne are up next, folks. I'm thrilled and grateful that the highly regarded SeanF has kindly agreed to write an essay. Much thanks in advance, SeanF!

Many thanks

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

What I find heartbreaking about Jeyne & Robb is that unlike so many other couples in the series they truly love one another.. but had no idea that others were plotting against them to such an extent.

As has been so well said above it was a love match which proved catastrophic for the Northern Kingdom.

But they're love was for real .

Jeyne had no idea she was being fed Moon Tea in place of a fertility brew. She trusted her mother, what girl wouldn't?

Robb Loves Jeyne. He may have wed her to preserve her and his own honor (this is the boys who's mother never forgave his own father for dishonoring himself) but he is besotted non the less.

I think we can all relate to first love. the feeling that you may burst if you can't be constantly by their side. That they are perfect and beautiful in every way. Robb is visibly gutted to leave her behind, Catelyn notes he seems to blame her even though he knows really that he can not take her with him to the Twins.

I feel GRRM is making it clear to us that it was a real love he tells us that Jeyne is keen to please Robb, she goes to his mother for advice. That they have a great active sex life, they try every day to conceive. That They don't want to be apart, She runs after him as he leaves Riverrun and he takes the humf with his mum for advising Jeyne stays put. When He is attacked he calls her name first. And Jamie notes she has torn her clothing with grief and refuses to give up the crown he gave her.

I think its a tragic love story.

I'd like to see what becomes of Jeyne, I'm glad she's survived so far but I do wonder if she will pop up later perhaps she'll be used as a political pawn at some point?

He looks apprehensive when Catelyn comes before him,he is a King but his mothers disapproval still makes him uneasy.

[SeanF]

What I find heartbreaking about Jeyne & Robb is that unlike so many other couples in the series they truly love one another.. but had no idea that others were plotting against them to such an extent.

As has been so well said above it was a love match which proved catastrophic for the Northern Kingdom.

But they're love was for real .

It's awful. But, people in Robb's position can't afford to fall in love. They need to weigh up the consequences of every decision before they take it.

There was a comment I liked in one of the Sansa threads, which suggested that one lesson Sansa might be learning is that if you never love, you'll never be helpless, and never be heartbroken.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Indeed.

I did scream no Robb you fool what are you doing when he started falling for Tallisa ( I watched to season 2 before reading) I agree he was not in the position to just marry whom he chooses.

But I still think the Jeyne Robb romance is a tragedy. They are so happy together but the reader quickly shown the consequences of going with ones heart in Westeros.

[A wilding]

The Robbs of the world can afford to fall in love, but they cannot afford to marry their loves. Robb could have surely got away with keeping Jeyne as a mistress. Provided that he ensured she was kept out of the way of the Freys. A fair number of RL rulers had mistresses in their youth that they were in love with at the time. Indeed, in France they had the concept of a Maitresse en Titre.

It is of course different for girls.

[SeanF]

Indeed.

I did scream no Robb you fool what are you doing when he started falling for Tallisa ( I watched to season 2 before reading) I agree he was not in the position to just marry whom he chooses.

But I still think the Jeyne Robb romance is a tragedy. They are so happy together but the reader quickly shown the consequences of going with ones heart in Westeros.

Judging by many of the comments on this forum, I sometimes think I'm the only person who actually likes Talisa as a character.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

hmmmm I fear you may be Sean....sorry. I didn't dislike her AT ALL untill I read the books. But I was so pissed off with the level of deviation from the origional story that I couldn't like her after that. Though it clearly made for a much neater and clearer story line for the show. I see the why, just don't like the changes. Any of them.

[DogLover]

Thanks again, SeanF! I love the comparison between Robb and Jeyne and Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville. I'm utterly fascinated by the Plantagenets and this point in time in English history. While the romance between Richard III and Anne Neville is my personal favorite, I also find the relationship between Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville very intriguing. Initially I found Elizabeth rather unsympathetic, but have recently started to see her in a new light. (Anyone watching the White Queen? I don't have Starz, but I did see the first teaser episode and eagerly await its release on DVD. While I'm no fan of Philippa Gregory--she who takes the "historical" out of historical fiction--I think the dramatization is going be very entertaining).

As SeanF mentions, Edward IV, like Robb, was a young and very talented military commander. And like Robb, Edward IV was fighting a war (War of the Roses) with the Lancasters for all. And he risks all for love, earning the enmity of Warwick, the most powerful and influential man in England.

Like Walder Frey, Warwick is a formidable foe and not one to cross, and felt his honor and reputation was slighted by Edward. But Warkwick, a seasoned battle commander with powerful allies, never felt the need to resort to such duplicitous and dishonorable tactics as Walder Frey. However, he does ally himself with the York's sworn enemies, the Lancasters, just as the Freys and Boltons ally themselves with the Lannisters. Warwick even goes so far as to marry his daughter Anne to Prince Edward Lancaster, the man fighting Edward IV for the crown. Edward IV feels double-crossed, as not only does this man whom he considers a surrogate father go against him, but so does his own brother, George. And while Catelyn tries to make Jeyne feel welcome, Edward's mother, Cecily Neville, is far too proud to ever accept a commoner as daughter-in-law and queen (more like a Lannister in nature than a Stark/Tully) and supports Warwick's and George's rebellion against Edward.

While Edward had more luck than Robb, winning not only all of his battles, but the war, his decision to marry Elizabeth for love marred his reign, causing a permanent rift in his own house, as well as divided the country and offended important would-be allies. And he came perilously close to losing everything. Even after Edward's death, Richard, his brother and staunchest ally, was able to use the resentment toward Elizabeth to usurp the crown from her son (possibly even resorting to murder). However, after Richard's death at the Battle of Bosworth, Edward and Elizabeth's eldest daughter, Elizabeth, married Henry Tudor, becoming the Queen of England.

Judging by many of the comments on this forum, I sometimes think I'm the only person who actually likes Talisa as a character.

hmmmm I fear you may be Sean....sorry. I didn't dislike her AT ALL untill I read the books. But I was so pissed off with the level of deviation from the origional story that I couldn't like her after that. Though it clearly made for a much neater and clearer story line for the show. I see the why, just don't like the changes. Any of them.

What do you like about Talisa, SeanF? I think many of the readers are able to at least find Robb's decision sympathetic because of his vulnerable state, thinking Bran and Rickon dead. Yet, in the show Robb and Catelyn never receive a confirmation that Bran and Rickon were killed, so it makes Robb's decision even more baffling (as well as Catelyn freeing Jaime). Robb and Catelyn are able to forgive each other and accept their mistakes because of this shared grief.

I agree with you, The Weirwood Eyes, I'm not happy with the majority of the changes, but I especially dislike the addition of characters not in the books, making the elimination of more significant book characters all the more maddening.

The Robbs of the world can afford to fall in love, but they cannot afford to marry their loves. Robb could have surely got away with keeping Jeyne as a mistress. Provided that he ensured she was kept out of the way of the Freys. A fair number of RL rulers had mistresses in their youth that they were in love with at the time. Indeed, in France they had the concept of a Maitresse en Titre.

All very true, but I don't think it's difficult to understand Robb's decision, being that this was not only the first time he fell in love, but experienced sex. However, it was extraordinary foolish. Edward IV was a known womanizer, so what exactly was it about Elizabeth, apart from her legendary beauty, that not only initially captivated him, but led him to stand by her through it all? True love?

[SeanF]

What do you like about Talisa, SeanF? I think many of the readers are able to at least find Robb's decision sympathetic because of his vulnerable state, thinking Bran and Rickon dead. Yet, in the show Robb and Catelyn never receive a confirmation that Bran and Rickon were killed, so it makes Robb's decision even more baffling (as well as Catelyn freeing Jaime). Robb and Catelyn are able to forgive each other and accept their mistakes because of this shared grief.

I agree with you, The Weirwood Eyes, I'm not happy with the majority of the changes, but I especially dislike the addition of characters not in the books, making the elimination of more significant book characters all the more maddening.

All very true, but I don't think it's difficult to understand Robb's decision, being that this was not only the first time he fell in love, but experienced sex. However, it was extraordinary foolish. Edward IV was a known womanizer, so what exactly was it about Elizabeth, apart from her famous beauty, that not only initially captivated him, but led him to stand by her through it all? True love?

By all accounts, Edward just wanted a fling with Elizabeth; she told him it was marriage or nothing.

WRT Talisa (and I haven't yet seen Season 3) I found her both sympathetic and interesting, with a good back story. Socially, she is pretty much Robb's equal, which helps make the marriage plausible to me.

[DogLover]

By all accounts, Edward just wanted a fling with Elizabeth; she told him it was marriage or nothing.

WRT Talisa (and I haven't yet seen Season 3) I found her both sympathetic and interesting, with a good back story. Socially, she is pretty much Robb's equal, which helps make the marriage plausible to me.

Yes, Elizabeth held out for marriage. And Edward knew how risky it was, since they were married secretly. It was also rumored that Edward was already married--to another commoner whom he wanted to bed--yet he set her aside after he got what he wanted. It was that rumor Richard used to justify his claim to the thrown, accusing Edward's children of illegitimacy.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Doglover

You're going to love the White Queen it was excellent. or at least I thought so. It was on over here over the summer and I really enjoyed it.

[SeanF]

I read the book of the White Queen, which I found okay but not great.

I thought her best story was the Boleyn Inheritance.