Rethinking Romance: Love Stories of ASOIAF

[Ygrain]

I know it often seems easy to come to conclusions which are not spelled out in the text. But a lot of ASOIAF is reading between the lines and bringing all the loose threads together. Often using our knowledge of traditional folk lore and mythology is a great lead as to what may have happened or be going to happen in his work. He's quite open to having borrowed from various sources.

"They" does not have to mean she was not discovered in a state of undress. I'm not thinking they made mad passionate love under the tree canopy, more that he was smitten with her and there fore kept her secret. They could mean Rhaegar and Ser Arthus & Ser Oswell. The two who later went on to help with Rhaegar and Lyanna to elope.

In most naked swimming maiden tales the prince does not disturb the maiden, only observes her and falls in love, later seeking to win her affections or steal her away.

In ASOIAF we actually have a story of two lovers which utilises this exact same scenario in Florian & Jonquil.

Where he comes across her and her sisters bathing in the pool so naming the place Maidenpool.

It would seem that the origins of these tales of spying a beautiful maid in a state of undress exist in many cultures.

Often it seems the maid is some kind of shape shifter, very interesting indeed. Is Lyanna not a described as the wolf maid?

From Greem Nymphs to the swan maidens, the Selkie's of the shetland isles and the Croatian She Wolf myth. these stories are usually very similar in their plot. Even the Little mermaid bares a resemblance in parts.

The shape shifting female is caught without her skin, naked by the male, he is entranced by her beauty and plots to catch her by stealing the skin, and hiding it from her somehow. She marries him and invariably bares him children who eventually discover the whereabouts of her skin and enable her to return to her other form.

Now what has this to do with R&L?

Well GRRM does not directly copy any folk tales he only uses elements and inspiration so we don't need to find a carbon copy of the story to call it a theme here or use our knowledge of these tales to guess at what may have gone on.

So Rhaegar is the male and Lyanna the Shape shifter, she is a wolf maid, she could well have been a Warg. I happen to think she was but I know that is a highly debated topic in itself. She was definitely wearing a disguise though masquerading as the KOTLT. If she was indeed spied changing out of the Armour then we have the classic man spies maiden slipping out of her skin (disguise) and falls in love set up. Next he plots to steal her, to marry her, and to get a child by her. This as far as we know also is very plausibly is what happened but again hotly debated.

I do think it did, and I firmly believe in R+L=J.

But this is of course where the tale goes awry as Lyanna is not given the means to escape by her child as she is dead.

GRRM subverting the classic folk tale format.

Yes. I was thinking about the swan maids myself but the version I am most familiar with goes differently - he returns her the disguise and she flies away as she is enslaved by a mighty sorcerer and the hero must save her - abduct her (sometimes after performing some tasks), actually, and throw off the pursuit.

[Le Cygne]

Note: The topic of this thread is the exploration of the classic elements of romance that many of us see in the writing of these stories. Discouraging that exploration is off topic.

(Moved the index forward...)

[Le Cygne]

Well GRRM does not directly copy any folk tales he only uses elements and inspiration so we don't need to find a carbon copy of the story to call it a theme here or use our knowledge of these tales to guess at what may have gone on.

Exactly. I love the way he's presented the story, too, a story within a story. Meera is a very good storyteller.

So, Meera tells the tale. Bran is all ears. The back and forth between them:

Bran (he picks up where this story is going):

"This isn’t going to be one of those love stories, is it?"

Meera (she tells a love story):

"The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head."

Bran (he knows how love stories are supposed to end):

"Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?"

Meera (continues telling the love story):

"The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end."

Bran (he still knows how these stories are supposed to end):

"Oh." Bran thought about the tale awhile. "That was a good story. But... the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty."

Meera (still telling the love story):

"She was," said Meera, "but that's a sadder story."

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

hello, I am honored to have been asked to do this and I hope everyone enjoys what I have to say, though I warn you it is very very long!

It turns out there is actually masses of material on Jon & ygritte and also that there is more to the relationship that simply a love story.

So I shall post it in sections.

Again I am sorry it is so long.

Boy meets Girl.

The first meeting between our two lovers happens when Qohrin half hand takes Jon with him to scout the Skirling pass, he sends him to kill some Wildlings they spot up high in the pass. Jon Kills the, Orell. But the remaining Wildling is sleeping, when he see’s she is female he hesitates. Orell is the first person Jon has ever killed and I don’t suppose he thought that he’d be killing women when he joined the NW.

She is of an age with him or so he thinks, when Jon first meets her (Ygritte) he feels reminded of Arya his much loved sister. Because she reminds him of his sister he takes her captive rather than kill her. Unknowingly to him, in her eyes he has stolen her .He has no idea how to deal with the situation of having a captive though and ends up giving more information about himself than he gets from her. He knows nothing & this makes Ygritte laugh.

Jon gives us our only POV description of Ygritte, so we only ever see her through his eyes, though from what others say we can garner that she is seen as a beauty to the wildlings due mainly to her thick red hair. Possibly this is to the reader her defining feature.

She is older than he first thought, maybe 20? short, bandy legged, with a round face. Small hands and a pug nose, so she is clearly a petite woman. She has an unruly shaggy mop of red hair. Quite romantic sounding hair - I’m thinking Merida in Brave. The red head is a bit of a fantasy trope, it conjures up wild, free spirited Celtic women. And is a classic hair colour for the love interest in both fantasy & romance novels, kind of literary speak for quirky, but appealing unconventional beauty, our story book red heads usually have a strong independent personality. In fact I’m pretty sure years of seeing & reading about spunky opinionated red headed heroines are to blame for my own coppery tresses.

He thinks she looks plump, but that its likely layers of skins and fur, He thinks that underneath she could be as skinny as Arya- again likening the two, but also he’s already thinking of what Ygritte may look like naked & having sexual thoughts to her.

After some futile questioning as to Mance’s plans she tells Jon the tale of Bael the bard, and later reveals that she did this in order to hint at him that he had stolen her, in order to get him to realise that she wanted sex. She’s no shy maid but he’s just too green to get her meaning.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

One Man’s terrorist is another Man’s freedom fighter!

Ygritte taunts him by naming him a southerner, the wall is further North than Winterfell after all. And it is really is all in where you are standing a thought which Jon will repeat later on.

Ygritte is partially a vehicle to teach Jon that the Wildlings are not really the enemy, that they are just as human as he is, Jon’s story is largely about this. I feel there is a definite Class element to their love story; they are from two different worlds. Him privileged and castle raised and she is even lower than the smallfolk she lived her life in hide tents wearing furs and scavenging for a living.

As well as being a conduit for Jon to understand the position the wildlings are in she also makes several feminist statements during their time together, after all she is a spear wife, a warrior maid. The first being when she tells him that her mother used to sing the song of Bael the Bard to her,

“she was a woman too, Jon snow. Like yours.”

This retort is in response to his “witty” and from a female perspective rather offensive statement, that his mother was “some woman, most of them are”- which is rather dismissive of a woman’s role in life, ie: not important…just a woman, a walking womb. Jon has borrowed this comment from Tyrion but Tyrion said it in order to make Jon feel better, ie: it doesn’t matter who she was , as it doesn’t change who he is but when Jon says it to Ygritte it comes across as he doesn’t care who she was. This is very dismissive to a mothers role.

Ygritte says her mother was a woman too like his. I am inclined to think Ygritte found Jons disregard for his mother quite upsetting and I have come to think Ygrittes parents died either on at the wall, or at the hands of Crows. This adds another dimension to their romance. There are several stories throughout the books of NW brothers who engage in relationships with women from the wrong side of the wall and it doesn’t end well for any of them. Ygritte seems to hold the watch in contempt and yet…she is drawn to Jon.

Also it once more reiterates, we are the same we are all people we all come out of a woman’s cunt. This theme of there being no real difference between them comes up over & over again during their romance, which really sets Jon up for his later role as the LC who opened the gate.

When Qorhin arrives and instructs Jon to do what must be done with her and she puts the idea of defection to him. Saying Mance would take him. When it comes to killing her Jon raises Longclaw and thinks about Ned and Ice & the executions he has witnessed, he thinks. “He was his father’s son. Wasn’t he? Wasn’t he?” He’s questioning his place in the world & his ability to carry out executions, but cleverly GRRM is also posing the question is Jon really Ned’s Son???

When he returns, Qohrin explains that Mance was once a ranger and gives Jon counsel regarding the Wildlings. Reiterating what Ygritte said regarding them being the same as him really.

“Only fools like Thoren Smallwood despise the Wildlings. They are as brave as we are, Jon as strong, as quick, as clever.”

He (jon) explains why he never killed her, saying that his father never used a headsman, that you owed it to look into a man’s eyes and hear his last words. Explaining that when he looked into Ygrittes eyes, that there was no evil in them.

Jon has begun his journey towards empathising with the wildlings, Ygritte shows him that they are just as much a part of the realms of men as he or anyone else is and this is what ultimately leads to him re-joining the free folk to the 7 kingdoms by allowing them passage through the wall and away from the Others.

But it’s going to be a long while before Jon finds himself and comes to the place where he can make that happen.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

What am I Who AM I where is my place in this world

Jon continually questions himself, who he is what motivates him, what he is and who he wishes to be. He gets a lot of flak for being “EMO” but really Jon is on an essential journey and one which is entirely understandable for a young man in his position, but also one which moulds him into what he must become in order to fulfil his role in the story.

He discovers whilst in the Skirling Pass that he is a Warg. Though he feels daft re -telling the dream, none of the NW men laugh at him,

Though the NW men do not laugh, and in fact validate Jon’s experience he still feels that these things (wargs) are like the fairy tales Old Nan would tell him as a child. Though up here free of the world in which he grew up, it is not so hard to believe in them, his self view is being radically changed as well as his world view.

Qohrin states:

“The cold winds are rising. Mormont knows it, Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the Trees have eyes again. Why should we baulk at giants & wargs.”

Its perhaps easier for Jon to accept his ability that say it may have been for Robb who had no one to validate his dreams. Jon rejects his identity to an extent though, I wonder why? Is it because some people react negatively to skinchanging or that those he meets are not good people? I’m hoping to see Jon embrace it in the coming books, but maybe a discussion about that is for another thread. Ygrittes role in helping Jon find himself is what I’m exploring here, though I do feel Ghost is tied to Jon in a way which makes him part of the romance too, he thinks of the two of them in the same moments more than once.

Later, when Qohrin instructs a fire to be lit, Jon reflects on his life, He thinks that one forgets how pretty a fire can be when it has been a long time, which makes me think GRRM is hinting at how pretty a woman can be when it has been a long time. Or perhaps when you are about to die, Ygritte was not as beautiful as many women Jon will have seen in his life at Winterfell, but….she is a woman and the first he’s seen in some time.

Qohrin talks of maids and wedding nights, prompting Jon to wonder if Qohrin has ever known such things. We all know Jon has not. He then likens the warmth of the flames to the sweetest kiss but has Jon even been kissed? Not as far as we know. Surely at this point he is wondering. Will he die having never known a woman? Catelyn wonders the same about Robb before his first battle. I think that Jon is wondering if he might die a virgin.

Next Ebben speaks negatively of Skinchangers & Wargs, which will undoubtedly make Jon feel negative about his newly realised status. As I’ve discussed a little Jon tries to bury this side of himself and tries to deny it. Though Qohrin does not deny it, he sends Stonesnake to Mormont instructing him to relay Jons dream, that he is a Warg, that the Trees have eyes again ( this phrase comes up a couple of times and I feel it’s very evocative of the weirwood network and green seers, which we find out about in later books). Qohrin reinforces Jon’s new status as Warg. Jon is validated, though he still can’t come to terms with what he is…yet.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Girl saves boy.

When they are cornered by the wildlings Ygritte speaks up for Jon, saving him as he did her. He kills Qohrin and turns cloak. Ygritte answers Rattleshirts questions in order to gain Jon a chance. But Rattleshirt calls Jon Warg, and it is said in a negative way which will again reinforce in Jon that it is a bad thing, he really struggles later on to embrace this side of himself. It must be tough to come to terms with being something you thought only existed in fairy tales & which causes those around you to mistrust you and guard themselves. Jon is really uncomfortable with the role of turncloak and defector, its yet another thing which contributes to Jon’s confused and uncertain sense of self.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

The reluctant Lover.

Jumping to next chapter Jon is talking to Tormund, who insinuates that the NW cut off their penis when they take the vow as why else would Jon refuse Ygritte who so clearly desires him, insinuating that Jon must not be a man if he does not want her. He spells it out saying

”The girl wants you in her.”

Tormund makes fun of Jon for not realising but Jon does know, he acknowledges that half the column sees it, he tries to bolster himself that he is a man of the NW but questions why he is blushing, like a maid because he is a maid as we well know.

Ygritte follows him from Rattleshirts band to Tormunds, declaring a free woman goes where she will, (another of her feminist statements.) she makes her bed next to him each night, no matter where Jon chooses to sleep, she cuddles up to him, he has awoken to her arm around him before & he is aroused by this. He feels a tension in his groin, he listens to her breathing it is not just sexual this indicates he is beginning care for her. Listening to a persons heart beat is very intimate.

Jon does try hard to resist he even uses Ghost to keep her away, like the story Old Nan told of knights and their ladies sleeping with a sword between them to keep their honor.

Two points stick out to me;

Firstly he thinks of a knight and his lady, is he already seeing Ygritte as his lady love? And secondly He wants to keep his honor, unlike his dad, he does not want to be like his father in this respect,” he’ll father no bastards.” A big concern for Jon is not getting a woman with child, he has suffered the shame of Neds indiscretion all his life and understandably does not wish to inflict that upon anyone else.

But even with Ghost there Ygritte persists. She is not afraid of the wolf; the wolf does not dislike her. This indicates she is good, as direwolfs always reflect the owners’ feelings about a person and that persons character and intentions.

The first time she says you know nothing, is in relation to trying to get him naked, on the pretence of a swim.

He firmly refuses stating I don’t go in at all. It is not just the water he is talking about in this statement.

Jon compares the wildlings idea of beauty to the look preferred in westeros, and Ygritte is not pretty by the standards he is familiar with, her hair is red and said to be lucky, kissed by fire, but it is a tangle, Jon is used to refined well groomed ladies, He notes that at a lords court she would only be seen as common, plain etc. He lists her aesthetic faults, round face, like a peasant, pug nose eyes too wide apart but then he notes that of late he has also noticed her grin & how it makes the crooked teeth not matter, her eyes are a pretty blue grey colour, so what if they are wide apart, they are lively, her voice is husky & low when she sings. It stirs him.

He likes the way fire light plays on her hair & how she smiles which also stirs some things. Jon reiterates to himself that he is a man of the NW he swore his oath in front of the weirwoods.

During this time Jon is struggling to keep his vows, he’s trying very hard to resist the natural urge to be with ygritte, not an easy task for a teenager. But Jon is going to try his hardest and Ygritte is going to try her hardest too.

Tormund asks him if he mislikes her?

He states no, but he is too young to wed, to which tormund laughs and says who spoke of weddings. The Wildlings live a very different, perhaps easier life to the one Jon knows. Maybe it would be very tempting to give in and go over to them for real, after all here he is not Ned Starks bastard the shame of his house, he is free, his duality as man & wolf is accepted, he can be with Ygritte or another if he chooses with no shame or come back. You can see why some NW men do abandon their post. But this is Jon Snow, son of the Honourable Eddard Stark. And he says no, he would not dishonour her. Jon has a lot of hang ups about the circumstances of his own conception & birth; he protests he might get her with child. ”Aye & where’s the harm in that?” states Tormund. Up here there is no shame in bastardry; no one cares if you are wed, or if a child is legitimate as no one owns property for a child to inherit or for legitimate & illegitimate children to fight over.

All the reasons that a marriage is so important in Jons world are irrelevant here.

Tormund is teaching Jon that the way of the world is different north of the Wall, a bastard child is just as healthy & strong these are the traits that count up here, not legitimacy to inherit a castle. He also points out Ygritte’s agency, if she does not want a babe she can brew some moon tea, it’s her body, her choice.

He laughs at Jon’s protestations, and calls kneelers fools. And asks him why did you steel the girl if you did not want her? Of course Jon does not realise he stole her, and says he never but Tormund points out he slew the men she was with and carried her off, “you made her yield to you.”

Through Jons internal monologue we get an insight into his musings on the Wildlings:

“They have no laws, no honour, not even simple decency. They steel endlessly from each other & breed like beasts, preferring rape to marriage, and fill the world with base born children. But in spite of just how opposite to his own culture they are he is growing fond of Tormund, Longspear & Ygritte….”No I will not think of Ygritte.”

He is trying to force his thoughts about her away as well as convince himself that all he has been told about Wildlings & all his preconceptions about them are true.

Some more thoughts of Jons on Ygritte. This time considering her nature more than her looks.; Thinking that she claims to be 3 years older but then thinks that she is really short, and tough though, he considers that a necessity up here. He notes she is not wed and asks why would she choose to fight instead? He thinks again that she reminds him of Arya in some way. Again he compares their bodies, Ygritte he thinks will not be as skinny as Arya, but it is hard to tell with all her furs.

During their next encounter she sings him the Last of the Giants which moves him.

But not wanting to believe that his people have driven the Giants to extinction he retorts that there are hundreds of giants, he just saw them.She slings back you know nothing Jon snow, seemingly quite bitter. I think she is trying to make him aware of the damage his people have done to the free folk beyond the wall, how they are losing the old ways, their culture is vanishing, as are the giants. He calls himself northern and says he follows the Old Gods, but compared to her, he is a southerner, and he knows nothing of the real old ways, unlike her. Ygritte is again Jon’s teacher, allowing him to recognise what needs to happen when the time comes and he is able to right some of the centuries of wrong doing by allowing the free folk through the Gate.

One might think Ygritte is holding a grudge against Jon given how frequently she berates him over his people’s suppression of her own. But then Orell attacks him and she protects him and goes with him to Mance. She will not leave him vulnerable. She deeply cares for Jon and wants him for her own. She wants him to truly go native and be with her.

Tormund also protects Jon and it is clear he loves the boy well.

She laments that Orrel has damaged Jons sweet face, she see’s him as sweet, perhaps his appeal to her is in his kindness. He spared her not many others would do so, but his kind heart will undo them later on when he is called upon to kill the old man at Queenstower. When Mance tells him he wishes for Jon to go with Jarl & the Magnar, Ygritte looks fierce, and insists she as a free woman will be coming with Jon on his new assignment, she refuses to leave his side, she wants him and she wants to protect him.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Sealing the deal.

Ygritte, has so far done all the running and is really persistent, she certainly knows what she wants and is determined to get it.

When Jon is accused of being a NW man still, she sticks up for him and speaks for him pointing out that he spared her, he killed the half hand and then as Jon mentions that he wears a sheepskin cloak now, she chimes in with a lie, that they are lovers. This convinces Mance that he is true and she uses it to force Jon to fuck her. Jon is asked is it true & Jon lies saying yes. He is now in a position where he cannot really refuse her any longer; Mance sends the two of them off together.

Rattleshirt is less convinced and warns she had bet not be lying. Jon then threatens Rattleshirt to get away from US; he has now referred to them as a couple. He has given in to his desires and Ygrittes advances. He knows he has to do it. At the end of this chapter, he tells her he never asked her to lie for him. To which she very assertively tells him it was no lie & he needs to find a different spot for Ghost tonight, she will be having him.

Ygritte comes to him & they discuss the stars, she tells him he stole her at a fortuitous time. The thief whom the Septons call the red warrior was bright that night. Jon insists that he never meant to steel her; he did not know she was a woman she points out that never the less he did steel her. Jon thinks he has never met anyone more stubborn except perhaps for Arya. This is the third time he has compared them. He thinks of her (Arya) then & asks is she still his sister? He thinks again about his place in the world, that he is not a true stark but is only Neds motherless bastard.

I think this next scene between Jon & Ghost is important. He goes to Ghost, and has an intimate moment with himself; he nuzzles his wolf this is almost like self-soothing. He asks the wolf do you have names for the stars too, names different to my own. He’s definitely feeling a tad displaced by Ygritte & the wildlings & questioning what he thought he knew of the world. He notes that Orell has scarred both he & ghost now, this is to remind us they are as one. This all happens just before he has to be parted from Ghost as he prepares to scale the wall. It will be some time before they reunite, This is a vulnerable moment for Jon he is letting go of a chunk of himself by sending the wolf away his last link to Winterfell, his identity as a Stark, he is also about to do the thing which he was at the wall to prevent- he will breech the wall with a band of wildlings.

He seems almost angry & frustrated as he thinks about the Wildlings calling him a Warg, as he does not know how to put on his wolfs skin independently and has only dreamt himself in ghost. , he is not able to go into him now to let him know to go to CB and so he tells ghost that they must part, verbally instructing the wolf to return to CB in the hopes that Ghost will somehow understand. He reiterates they will meet again at CB but for now each must hunt alone.

When Ghost goes he is sad and fears he will prove a failure as a warg just as he has in his mind as a sworn brother & a spy.

Now he is alone & Ygritte is never far, He thinks of Mance’s words; two hearts that beat as one & thinks it is a mockery. This comes over as very bitter. The two hearts that beat as one are he and Ghost whom he has been forced to part from. He is confused and knows he has no choice but to have sex with Ygritte.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

THE FIRST TIME.

As She slips beneath his skins he thinks if he refuses her she will know him for a turncloak, he tells himself he is just playing the part Qohrin told him to. His body though is eager to play this part, even if internally he is still conflicted.

“His lips on hers, his hand sliding under her doe skin shirt to find a breast, his manhood stiffening when she rubbed her mound against it through their clothes. My vows he’d thought, remembering the weirwood grove where he had said them, nine great white trees in a circle, the carved red faces watching, listening. But her fingers were undoing his laces and her tongue was in his mouth and her hand slipped inside his smallclothes and brought him out, and he could not see the weirwoods anymore, only her. She bit his neck and he nuzzled hers, burying his nose in her thick red hair. Lucky he thought, she is lucky, fire kissed.

Isn’t that good she whispered as she guided him inside her she was sopping wet down there, and no maiden, that was plain, but Jon did not care. His vows, her maidenhood, none of it mattered, only the heat of her, the mouth on his, the finger that pinched at his nipple. Isn’t that sweet she said again, not so fast, oh, slow, yes , like that.

There now, there now, yes, sweet, sweet. You know nothing, Jon Snow, but I can show you. Harder now. Yessss.”

He tries to remind himself after that he is just playing a part. That he had to do it once to make her trust him, he tells himself it need never to happen again.

BUT.

He thinks the proving had been SO sweet, and Ygritte sleeping beside him, her head against his chest is sweet too. He thinks again of the Weirwoods, he excuses himself with the thought that even his father stumbled once. He vows he won’t sire a bastard though it will not happen again. It happened twice more that night though & again in the morning when she awoke to find him hard

- these are teenagers after all.

He likens their coupling to that of a pair of rutting dogs which seems to imply it’s all pure hormone driven instinct, not caring that others see.

He thinks what has become of him, where has his honour gone? That he can fuck for all to see he discards his vows. He has no control over himself. Jon is ordinarily a person with quite a lot of self-control.

This is sex after all a completely instinctual thing, we have very little control as teens & just fuck & fuck, it takes up a huge part of adolescent life after all. Thinking about it, doing it thinking again. Etc.

And every night his vows seem less important & he wonders if this is what it was like for Ned, was he as weak when he dishonoured himself in Jons mothers bed.?

The sex between Jon & Ygritte is written very differently to the rest of the sex in the series. It’s much more relatable for the reader. I do think this is very deliberate on GRRM’s part. He wants the reader put themselves in their shoes.

When we arrive at the cave, Jon is called to speak with the Magnar ,he thinks that he would execute Jon at the slightest whiff of betrayal, & Ygritte. Jon now feels a sense of responsibility for her. Which is very “seven kingdoms”, that the woman is the man’s property, that he is responsible for keeping his Lady safe.”

After speaking with the Magnar he seeks Ygritte out. He finds her deep within the dark winding caverns. She tells him you know nothing again & relays the story of Gendals children

Again saying you know nothing.

They soon begin to make love he filled his nose with the smell of her, again GRRM using animalistic smelling of one another to convey raw lust, instinctual desire & a genuine attraction.

He tells her she is like Old Nan, she says are you calling me old? He says you are older than me. All gentle teasing again she tells him you know nothing Jon snow.

She takes of her clothes so he can see her naked. As she undresses her breasts (again breasts not teats GRRM wants us to relate to their sex by using our own language in place of his usual westeros speak) Jon notes her nipples are wide and pink

She implores him to undress, saying if you want to look you have to show, you know nothing Jon snow. That’s a lot of you know nothings for one scene? I think Ygritte catchphrase was very deliberate seen as her role really is that of teacher, both teaching Jon about love & sex and also about the Free Folks customs & the Old ways. He often thinks about making love to her in front of Weirwoods sometimes it’s a negative feeling as though doing so would be shameful and at other times that doing so would be supremely romantic and gratifying.

He replies: Quote:

“I know I want you”, all his vows forgotten, she stood naked before him and he was as hard as the rock all around them ( In that glorious way that a young man is.)

He had been in her half a hundred times by now, but always beneath the furs, with others all around them. (Inhibited sex)He had never seen how beautiful she was.

Her legs were skinny, but well-muscled, the hair at the juncture of her thighs a brighter red than that on her head, Does that make it even luckier?

He pulled her close, “I love the smell of you” (again using smell, very sexy, evocative language) I love your red hair (Uh oh, Tully red? A bit Freudian perhaps) I love your mouth & the way you kiss me, I love your smile. I love your teats. This time teats as he has spoken it, it is in keeping for Westerosi dialect, but when descriptive its breasts so we the reader relate the experience better, I don’t know about you but I’ve always found Martins use of “Teats” as rather dehumanising, it’s really not a word anyone IRL uses to describe breast, tits, bangers, knockers, tata’s boobies, anything but teats, teats belong on livestock, I am as many of you know a breastfeeding councillor so the word teats for me is really irritating I spend so much of my time trying to normalise nursing and helping couples cope with milk in the bedroom is a huge part of that and mainly that involves convincing a couple that lactation does not make you a cow & that its really NOT gross and that you really are still sexy and desirable to your partner. Back to Jon & Ygritte though. He kissed them one & then the other. I love your skinny legs, and what’s between them.

He knelt to kiss her there, lightly on her mound at first, but ygritte moved her legs apart a little ( she’s always in control in their relationship by opening her legs she has invited him to kiss her )and he saw the pink inside & kissed that as well, and tasted her (There is so much smelling and tasting with these two. We get a total sensual experience with their sex, GRRM uses very raw drive based language to paint a picture of a very strong urge and highly charged coupling. Like the first time with a new partner and especially teenage sex is).She gave a little gasp. “if you love me all so much, why are you still dressed” this is her taking back the control after momentarily losing it in her orgasm.

She whispered you know nothing,Jon Snow, Noth-Oh. Oh. OHHHH. And she lets go again.

Afterward she was almost shy. Or as shy as Ygritte ever got (subdued by his prowess perhaps.lol. Very much like, hey he showed her who knows nothing. A comedic moment.) After she asks about the oral sex.Iis that what Lords do with their ladies - down south?

She knows nothing it transpires for all her sexual experience she’s never done anything but very straight sex.

Jon replies I don’t think so. And thinks that no one ever told him about what lords & ladies do his sex Ed is lacking it’s only what he heard in the benches of the feast hall from time to time. I guess Ned yet again failed to educate his kids on that front. It did seem on Sansa’s wedding night she knew the theory, she seemed to understand what goes where but clearly did not know what to expect from her husbands manhood as they all look like Tyrions is described by her, yet she was grossed out. Calling it ugly (admittedly some are nicer than others) Jon must know the basics too but I doubt he got “the talk” like Sansa seems to have gotten, but then Cersei may well have been the one to give it to her & not necessarily Cat, or perhaps her septa? Jon has heard stuff sure but it seems he never got the marriage bed chat.

“I only….wanted to kiss you there, you seemed to like it.” Oh my how sweet. This is just adorable.

“Aye, I liked it some….no one taught you such?”

Time for Jon to fess up to having been a virgin.

She seems taken aback and teases him, he retorts he WAS a man of the NW, and thinks was but what am I now.

He asks her was she maiden (though he has already noted that she is not, but I ask myself how on earth could he tell?) she scoffs at him “I am 19, and a spearwife, and kissed by fire, how can I be Maiden.”

Indeed, of course she was not, this is beyond the wall, there is no shame in sex here they fuck in plain sight of each other, women are not controlled by their virginity she was free to fuck who she wished, when she wished.

She tells him of the boy and that he was a disappointment and that when he came back Longspear ran him off and he never tried again Jon is pleased it was not Longspear as he rather likes him, she explains how one does not mate with members of your own village that it would be like fucking your sibling, ewww that way begets monsters, lack witts etc. Once again she tells him…you know nothing. Yes while he impressed her in the sack he still knows very little of her culture she explains that those who wed kin, or clan kin offend the gods, Jon brings up Craster, she says he’s more like your kin than ours. Ygritte tells Jon that Crasters father was a crow who got a lass from white tree with child & then flew back to the wall, she took the babe to them but they ran her off she says that.

“Craster’s blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse”

Ygritte tells him that she once feared he might do the same, fly back to the wall. He does but not just yet.

She explains, you never knew what to do after you stole me,

Ygritte, I never did – he still protests.

Aye you did, you climbed a mountain and killed Orell- I wonder if Orell was Ygritte’s man until then?

And before I got me axe you had a knife at my throat. I thought you’d have me then, which tells us she possibly has not had the best sexual experiences in the past, or is this just highlighting that the wildlings have a culture of rape.Or kill me, or maybe both - Ygritte really has a negative view of the NW men.

She told him the tale of Bael the bard to give him a hint that she wanted to be stolen; she wanted him to fuck her.

She thought it would make him know to pluck her for certain he didn’t though, she then says, again you know nothing, Jon Snow.

We get another little comedic comment from Ygritte, “You might be learning some though.” then she straddles him, tells him she is not done with him yet and then asks him to lick her out again offering a BJ in return. Jon no longer cared about the vows but the guilt returned by the time the torch had burnt out.

“If this is so wrong why did the gods make it feel so good?” Bloody good question Jon….

They tried to get dressed but then give in to the urge to fuck again. I love how the sex with these two reminds me of being young, of the days when you would do it over & over again, the freshness of having just discovered sex, of having just discovered each other. I think this has a lot to do with the appeal of their relationship it’s easy to relate to. We’ve all (or mostly all.)been there, illicit sex as teenagers discovering how good it can feel to do something you’ve been told is wrong.

The chapter ends on a touching note, she implores him to stay in her (A thing we women often ask when feeling very connected and in love or after very satisfying sex) and expresses a wish to stay with him in the cave forever. A simple life, a solution to the outside problems affecting their relationship. She knows that he is a crow and he will eventually fly back to the wall.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

You know nothing, no you know nothing!

We re-join Jon as the climb is about to begin, He is contemplating once again his place in the world If he truly wants a life with her he needs to fully embrace life as a wildling. Heart & soul. But if he abandons her & re-joins his brothers it’s likely that she will die, he sees himself as responsible for her now that he has bedded her. He briefly imagines taking her with him to CB. No he certainly could not do that, he realises there is nowhere in the 7 kingdoms that she would find a welcome. They could go back to the cave & be together, with Gendels children, who are as like to eat them. When the section of the wall slides off, he protects her physically from the ice fall. Jon is genuine in his feelings for Ygritte.

Ygritte expresses her feelings about the wall which could be interpreted as her feelings about the 7 kingdoms.

“I hate this wall.” In a low angry voice. “can you feel how cold it is?” Jon points out it is ice and she replies “it is made of blood” (you know nothing) this statement again makes me think she has experienced personal loss at the hands of the NW and that wall. Being kept out of the 7 kingdoms has hurt the wildlings badly they have bled and died and suffered for being the wrong side of that wall. She tells him she almost fell when at the top. She cries causing Jon to comfort her or at least he tries to but she rejects his comfort as a slight to her “toughness” refutes that she was scared and again tells him you know nothing, she was not crying for fear, the horn was not found, the horn that could have rid her of this hated wall, the wall that is so cold, and built on blood.

Next Jon gets a turn to inform Ygritte of the harm that wildling raiders do. The gift is empty because those who lived there gave up after years of raids, thefts, murders, rapes kidnaps etc. He thinks if she is so impressed by a towerhouse, if he could show her Winterfell, give her a flower from the glass gardens, ( Like Bael.) Feast her in the great hall, show her the stone kings on their thrones, we could bathe in the hot pools & love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched us.”

He reminds himself winterfell is not and cannot be his it belongs to his brother, the king of winter, he is no stark, a snow a bastard, an oathbreaker & a turncloak.

He thinks on what might have been if things had been different, Ned & Benjen were planning to re-establish the gift he would likely have been given lands a holdfast etc in his father’s name. When he tells her why the gift is now empty she retaliates that no wives are taken, just daughters (like this is somehow not as bad?) it’s you who are thiefs you stole the whole world & built the wall to keep our kind out, he says did we? He thinks he sometimes forgets how wild she is and asks her to explain. She says she would rather be stolen by a strong man than traded by her father to a weakling for the sake of politics, They argue about their cultures she says she wants a hard cock not flowers when he proposes she could be stolen by a man she hated who treated her badly and stinks etc. She ends the argument with yet another you know nothing, he thinks that he knows she is wildling to the bone. He knows they cannot work. He knows he loves his land more than her he will give her up to protect the realms of men. But their time has taught him so much. He thinks he is reminded of the wall between their worlds.

A man can own a woman, or a man can own a knife, no man may own both, every little girl learns that from her mother….Ygrittes mother? Who must be dead surely. She is again giving away her bitterness.

She defiantly tells him no one can own the land, the sea the air and Mance will show them that, he informs her Mance cannot win this.

He can she insists (like a petulant child) you know nothing jon snow. You have never seen the free folk fight.

HE explains they will die all of you, when she picks up on his “you”, and realises he means to go back over. She tells him he better not be no crow, she has sworn he is not she possessively pushes him against a tree and aggressively kisses him telling him he is hers and she is his. All men must die but first we’ll live, he is kissed into submission yes we’ll live he says.

Jon thinks he has somehow come to love her crooked teeth, but he means her. He once again thinks she is wildling to the bone and has a sick sad feeling in his stomach, again he knows he will betray her, he knows he cannot keep her nor keep her safe.

He wonders if she knew his heart, would she betray him, if he explained to her he is still a stark, still a brother of the NW. he doubts that she would understand.

Hopes but dare not risk it.

He has a wobble over having shared bread & salt (guest right) with these people whom he must betray & Ygritte blankets as well. Even though he has done all of this they do not trust him, he is not safe. He fears for her safety as an extension of him she would die too. Two hearts that beat as one. They are as one her smell has become a part of him, we hear a lot about Ygrittes smell don’t we?

The things he lists about her are his joy & his despair, he again wonders about his lord father did he feel this way with Jons mother? He feels a trap was set by her and Mance pushed him into it.

He did not want to feel for the wildlings or for her.

A wildling describes her as his Ygritte, another layer of the guilt sandwich. Being without Ghost makes him feel as though part of him has been cut off even with ygritte lying beside him. He feels alone he does not want to die alone. Jon no longer feels he knows where he belongs.

Another you know nothing

He tells of good queen Alysanne and Ygritte says if she was so good she would have torn the wall down, again expressing her hate of the wall, of the position being born the other side of it placed her and her loved ones in. Jon points out that the wall holds a more pressing purpose to protect the world from the Others he calls her sweetling, which kind of implies youth and naivety- she knows nothing…

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

The beginning of the end.

When Jon is called upon to kill the old man he hesitates and Ygritte encourages him, she points out that Orell was also a man sitting beside a fire. To her it is no different she is desperate for Jon to remain true to her cause she knows their relationship is slipping away this side of the wall, that he is still a crow. She kills the old man herself to rid them of the awkward situation she cannot stand for Jon to reveal himself as a crow or for the Magnor to kill him. She flings you know nothing at him in her anger as she knows the game is up, too late he has revealed himself.

Then Summer bursts in he had only just been thinking of how lost he is without his wolf how he does not know his place in the world but summer is here just at the right time not only to rescue Jon from almost certain death but to remind him of who he is and what he represents the Stark at the wall, the protector of the realms of men, he is a wolf of winterfell. When push came to shove he left her. He had to and they both knew it all along. After escaping he examines the arrow to see if it were hers and explains she uses grey goose feathers, was she aiming at him or the horse? So we can presume it was indeed hers? He makes for home, and tells himself he ought to feel relieved and happy but asks why does he feel so hollow? Because the romance was real he did love her and she him, it was real but doomed.

During his journey back to CB he thinks of her a lot, her smell (yet again) of her hair her body the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat he has a voice who says you were wrong to love her and another who says you were wrong to leave her. GRRM is really laying it on thick about how divided he was and how torn he found himself. He again compares him & her to Ned & the “mother” he never knew. Was this how he(Ned) had felt? Is Jon finally feeling he can empathise with Neds supposed position?

He (Ned) was pledged to Lady Stark as I am pledged to the NW.

He rode hard for the North- what a line!!!There is so much in that. Loyalty, Determination, Sweat, Blood, Sacrifice. Having decided once and for all who he is and where his loyalties lie! A short line but full of emotive visuals.

When he arrives at CB he feels good to be back, he is asked who Ygritte is after he mentions her they know he has broken his vows with her. How can he explain, he thinks of her quality’s warm, smart, funny, can kiss a man or slit his throat. Young & wild, he witters in his milk of the poppy induced delirium, It was wrong I was wrong to love her wrong to leave her. He thinks of her whilst he is being patched up, he thinks I had to. He feels so much guilt for both her and his vows and his dad and himself. He dreams it is her who is tending him with gentle hands.

He dreams he is splashing in the hot pools back at HOME, beneath a huge weirwood that has Neds face. Ygritte is there and strips off laughing & splashing and wants to screw her but he cannot respond to her advances with his father watching via the tree. He was the blood of winterfell a man of the nights watch. I will not father a bastard. He told her I will not I will not, she tells him you know nothing Jon snow- A dream about his day dream, perhaps the beginning of his recurring dream in which he lives the fantasy he had about taking her to Winterfell, he fantasises about making love in the hot pools beneath the Heart tree and of feasting her in the great hall and taking her to the crypts to see the kings, his ancestor’s. This dream and the later ones where he is descending into the crypts and can hear feasting in the hall above him don’t go quite as his fantasy however, in fact its all wrong.

Getting ready to defend CB, he recalls as he once told Arya to stick em with the pointy end. He is thinking about his beloved sister as he prepares for a battle in which he may die .He thinks of all the wildlings coming whom he knows and Ygritte too. He did not allow them to become friends but her she was more than a friend even, he feels the throb of pain where her arrow went into his leg .So it was hers.

He recalls the grotto how she looked the taste of her mouth as it opened beneath his (we’re always invited into their love making in a very intimate and evocative way. He implores her to stay away in his mind. He does not want her to die, but of course he knows she will. He may too. You’ll find nothing here but death. As they await the attack he sees the stars and thinks which is it, is it his name for them or hers? Is he wildling or a stark a NW brother, he wondered where Ghost was now and Ygritte but that way lay madness. Its really really tough for him even though he knows she will die and that they were always doomed he is still heart broken by it all, and Ghost he wants his wolf to make him feel better. They are the two hearts that beat as one, he and Ghost. Funny how Mance exclaimed who is he to separate Two Hearts that beat as one, yet he did he forced Jon to send away his Wolf, knowing full well that he is a Warg seems like he cleaved straight through that relationship without a care in the world. Or was it deliberate?

When the battle ends he goes searching for her and finds her with an arrow between her breasts.) in the moonlight she looks to be wearing a glittering silver mask could this hold significance it’s a very beautiful image.

He is very concerned it might have been his arrow but it is not, he feels as though it were though he feels totally responsible for her death. They share some sweet final words, he tells her that it is a real castle, even though it really is not, but he wants her to die in peace, he tries to tell her she won’t die, he thinks Maester Aemon will heal her, and he wants to believe it so much. They remember the cave, and agree they should have stayed there, he says you’re not going to die Ygritte, you’re not you’re not you’re not. This seems so very sad so childlike and desperate , she tells him one final time you know nothing Jon Snow.

She is now dead, in his next chapter we have the dream he thinks a light has gone out somewhere Ygritte forgive me please. He once imagined taking her and feasting her at Winterfell and showing her the crypts. In his dream the barriers to him not getting WF are gone he cannot find a single family member, he can hear feasting in the great hall indeed and he is going down to the crypt but what use when his light (her) has gone out? He begs forgiveness of her, This line sticks out to me” it was only a Direwolf, Grey and Ghastly spotted with blood its golden eyes shining sadly through the dark, “could it be summer and it is Brans sadness shining through the dark? He is cold and feels so alone. He misses Ghost and in the wild he had had Ygritte to share his furs and warm him, both gone now, he had burned her himself….as she would have wanted and ghost where are you now? Gosh he sure misses his wolf, Ghost is part of him he is lost without the wolf.

When he sees the wildling host he wants to tell them this is not your place not your land go, he thinks Ygritte would have said you know nothing to that. He thinks of her quite often really and her lessons to him. When Zia the Molestown whore tries to kiss him in victory, he pushes her away. No I am done with kissing. He wants to remain true to his vows now he can’t risk the hurt he can’t risk feeling ashamed of himself again.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Saying goodbye.

Later on at the start of his next chapter he thinks I should have stayed in that cave that she’d claw his face and call him a craven if he could tell her that, but still he should have.

On meeting Tormund again he tells him he thinks it was Ygrittes arrow that pierced his leg causing the limp. Tormund laughs. That’s a woman for you one minute kissing you the next filling you with arrows, Jon tells him she is dead. Tormund shakes his head sadly, aye if I’d been ten years younger, he raises a toast to her, kissed by fire & drank deep, Jon repeats & drinks even deeper, Tormund asks if Jon killed her he says no a brother he hopes to never know which one. This sad encounter is cementing Jon & Tormunds relationship, Jon is grieving her still but she taught him so much. Things which later enable him to let the free folk through the wall.

When Tormund tells Jon of Longspear Ric stealing his daughter it brings Ygritte to mind once more he imagines a conversation where she buoys him up to meet Mance, to what he assumes is certain death, he draws strength from what he feels she would say, he jokes to himself easy for you to say you are already dead a good brave death. Not a turncloak like me.

I feel that the main themes explored in the relationship are finding one ’s self, learning to value & respect other cultures and of course discovering sex & love for the first time. Ygrittes purpose in the story was very much to mature Jon and enable him to discover who he is and who he needs to be to fulfil his destiny as the LC who opened the gate, and possibly much more too. He now has empathy and knows sacrifice& grief as well as love.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Holy Holy mother of god shit, it is massive!!!!!

wow. turns out for such a brief affair Jon & Ygritte is the longest and most detailed romance in the books. blimy!!! Sorry guys. :uhoh:

[DogLover]

Wow! Thank you, The Weirwoods Eyes! I need to go back and read it again when I have more time, but I really liked how you addressed the themes of sacrifice and grief. Love vs. duty also continues to be a significant theme in these stories. Robb, Rhaegar, and Lyanna all chose love, while Jon chose duty.

Thank you again for taking the time to write this!

[Alia of the knife]

I know it often seems easy to come to conclusions which are not spelled out in the text. But a lot of ASOIAF is reading between the lines and bringing all the loose threads together. Often using our knowledge of traditional folk lore and mythology is a great lead as to what may have happened or be going to happen in his work. He's quite open to having borrowed from various sources.

"They" does not have to mean she was not discovered in a state of undress. I'm not thinking they made mad passionate love under the tree canopy, more that he was smitten with her and there fore kept her secret. They could mean Rhaegar and Ser Arthus & Ser Oswell. The two who later went on to help with Rhaegar and Lyanna to elope.

In most naked swimming maiden tales the prince does not disturb the maiden, only observes her and falls in love, later seeking to win her affections or steal her away.

In ASOIAF we actually have a story of two lovers which utilises this exact same scenario in Florian & Jonquil.

Where he comes across her and her sisters bathing in the pool so naming the place Maidenpool.

It would seem that the origins of these tales of spying a beautiful maid in a state of undress exist in many cultures.

Often it seems the maid is some kind of shape shifter, very interesting indeed. Is Lyanna not a described as the wolf maid?

From Greem Nymphs to the swan maidens, the Selkie's of the shetland isles and the Croatian She Wolf myth. these stories are usually very similar in their plot. Even the Little mermaid bares a resemblance in parts.

The shape shifting female is caught without her skin, naked by the male, he is entranced by her beauty and plots to catch her by stealing the skin, and hiding it from her somehow. She marries him and invariably bares him children who eventually discover the whereabouts of her skin and enable her to return to her other form.

Now what has this to do with R&L?

Well GRRM does not directly copy any folk tales he only uses elements and inspiration so we don't need to find a carbon copy of the story to call it a theme here or use our knowledge of these tales to guess at what may have gone on.

So Rhaegar is the male and Lyanna the Shape shifter, she is a wolf maid, she could well have been a Warg. I happen to think she was but I know that is a highly debated topic in itself. She was definitely wearing a disguise though masquerading as the KOTLT. If she was indeed spied changing out of the Armour then we have the classic man spies maiden slipping out of her skin (disguise) and falls in love set up. Next he plots to steal her, to marry her, and to get a child by her. This as far as we know also is very plausibly is what happened but again hotly debated.

I do think it did, and I firmly believe in R+L=J.

But this is of course where the tale goes awry as Lyanna is not given the means to escape by her child as she is dead.

GRRM subverting the classic folk tale format.

What a beautiful legend. I had never heard that and what a perfect fit to the themes.

Thank you for sharing. :)

[The guy from the Vale]

What a beautiful legend. I had never heard that and what a perfect fit to the themes.

Thank you for sharing. :)

It's indeed a very beautiful comparison,and one that is indeed very fitting.

That said, that legend has been used in 19th and early 20eth century opera and ballet quite a number of times, and subsequently into modern film. Both Wagner's opera Lohengrin and Tchaikovsky's ballet Swan Lake are based on that legend, with the latter being the basis for Aronofsky's movie Black Swan. As mentioned before, Andersen's Little Mermaid also fits the legend to some degree.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

:D Thank you. I still can't get over how gosh darn long my essay is.

On the shapeshifter myths. YES it is used over and over again in many cultures. the croatian one see's a man spie a she wolf by a mill pond she speaks saying skin off skin off skin off and slips from her wolf skin she baths in the pool and he watches her entranced. He sneaks up and steals her wolf skin nailing it to the mill, he takes her, weds her and gets two sons by her who later ask her if she is a wolf one son asks the father too and he admits to what happened and tells the son where the skin is nailed to the mill, the son then tells the mother and she retrieves it and once again runs as a wolf. The Selkie myth is pretty much identical the story does vary but it is one which spans several cultures.

I do think its quite aplicable to R+L and the way GRRM describes having only found the shield hanging in the tree is rather reminicant of the shifter draping her skin in the trees while she bathes. I think thats what twigs the mind and Florian & Jonquill is there to trigger memories of these folk tales too. I

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Doglover, thank you. When I was first asked to write this I had no idea what I would say. While Jon is my favourate character I never really considered Ygrittes purpose in the story beyond a bit of love interest. It turned out she was there for way way more than the opertunity to put a few sex scenes in and fill his chapters whilst the rest of the story played out.

[DogLover]

Oh, we have HBO for the gratuitous sex. :laugh: While GRRM may get some flack for some of his sex scenes ("fat pink mast" and "her cunt became the world" receiving quite a bit of ridicule), I think he is quite good at using sex as a vehicle to better understand the characters. And Ygritte certainly plays a significant role in Jon's development.