Rethinking Romance: Love Stories of ASOIAF

[igrewupinKL]

I know this is regarding book evidence, but Arya's face in this scene in season 2 says it all

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m39xoqikFr1qhnk1to2_r1_500.gif

shes like :wub:

haha great thread I'll have to read over it another time

adding to the list, Bran + Meera

[Booknerd2]

Concerning Gendry / Arya -- re-reading has brought to light a few things that I didn't notice before:

1. He's listening from afar. He's not even involved in the conversation, but he's heard every word she's had to say. Not exactly the actions of an indifferent party, nor a strictly platonic friend.

2. He can't resist the urge to grab Arya's attention. He knows he's not part of the conversation, but he risks a few odd looks for the sake of being noticed.... (or maybe doesn't recognize that making remarks about something said halfway across the room seems a little umm... obvious? lol) Doubtful, but that's up for debate.

3. He's taken notice of her "soft little" hands. lol Enough said.

4. Yet another urge he couldn't resist... the urge to pick on her. Taken straight from a Middle School Flirting 101 textbook.

5. Is it me, or is he trying to make her feel better about herself? Here she is, voicing all of her insecurities about herself and how she feels that she fails at being a proper little lady, trying to groom herself only to pull her own hair out...

And of course, odds are, if he's listening, he's watching, too. He thinks her little insecurities are ridiculous (maybe to the point of being endearing, even?) and in some small way wants to make her feel better. Through picking on her, yes, but then we revert back to point #4.

Anyway, moving on....

So I was re-reading and came across something that I had completely missed. I almost smacked myself in the face. lol

and then....

This happens right before the crapapple scene. No wonder Gendry was so pissy / jealous! He and Arya had walked there together the last time they had stopped at High Heart, and now she's taking some little lordling squire to their spot.... ouch. And this right after he'd tried to apologize to her for joining the BwB, and she'd basically asked him why she should give a rat's ass.

Hope this isn't a repeat post from someone else. Just a few tidbits that I noticed. :)

Reek Havoc,

Just genius…just a brilliant catch and observations. Never, ever, noticed that or would think to put that together. My Westeros geography stinks to start off, and well, just forget it. LOL!

And I totally love and agree with everything said above.

[Booknerd2]

Booknerd2, that's a very nice essay.

WRT Arya/Nymeria, if they ever meet again, I think they'll still have a close bond, because of the link that exists between warg and direwolf. Nymeria and her pack rescued Arya, Gendry, and Hot Pie from their pursuers, after they escaped Harrenhall. Arya still has wolf dreams, despite being hundreds of miles away from Nymeria, in Braavos.

Thanks so much!

I have a hard time still reading where Arya has to chase away Nymeria and the dire wolf hesitates and won't go. The series portrayal is not much better for me. Just as bad as the shot of Lady as Ned approaches her. Yeah, I haven't thought about that in awhile, Harrenhal, and that is such a great example. And, of course, Big Nyms dragging poor Catelyn out of the water. Damn, I love that wolf! My female dog won't let anyone near me, until she gets to know them or has seen them several times. Much more protective than my other dogs, and I always think that is why I love that dynamic between Arya and Nymeria. It is personal and I understand it.

[SeanF]

Thanks so much!

I have a hard time still reading where Arya has to chase away Nymeria and the dire wolf hesitates and won't go. The series portrayal is not much better for me. Just as bad as the shot of Lady as Ned approaches her. Yeah, I haven't thought about that in awhile, Harrenhal, and that is such a great example. And, of course, Big Nyms dragging poor Catelyn out of the water. Damn, I love that wolf! My female dog won't let anyone near me, until she gets to know them or has seen them several times. Much more protective than my other dogs, and I always think that is why I love that dynamic between Arya and Nymeria. It is personal and I understand it.

Given the bond, I think Nymeria understands why Arya acted as she did.

[Parizad]

I want to suggest Cersei-Jamie, Tyrion-Tysha and the one-sided love of Ser Jorah to Dany

[Parizad]

Yes for sure, I'm tempted to say that love is perhaps the most important theme: it is about the individual versus society (personal wants and needs versus social/family expectations) , it is a key driver of the politics (Lyanna and Rhaegar, Lysa and Littlefinger, Robb and Jeyne) and a key driver of the family dynamics (The Ned and Catelyn, Johanna and Tywin) or indeed both (Aegon the Unworthy and numerous others). In short - no love, no ASOIAF.

I also like how love as a destructive force both sharpens our sense of our precarious this society is - ie a bit of lovin' can bring the whole thing down and harkens back to the Arthurian tradition: Lancelot and Guinevere, Tristan and Isolde, Arthur and Morgana.

Certainly. I remember having been in love. It's definitely bad for you, I lost a lot of weight through love sickness I remember that :( . Youngsters - don't do it. If you marry let it be for land or gold or swords, but stay clear of love, 'tis the bane of honour and the scourge of duty.

Modern love can afford to be sugary sweet stuff because it is not that dangerous. We have more stable institutions (leastwise in the northern hemisphere so called western part), we are not (beyond the Mediterranean) dependent on the family. In short it is affordable, allowable and indulgable. Not so in the world of Ice and Fire.

LOL do you actually think that people in the eastern and southern countries still marry for land and titles?? looool

[Booknerd2]

Part 8: Know Your Place: Gendry, Arya….and a little Ben Stein

So Arya III (COC) opens with tension, bewilderment, and frustration for Arya and it seeps out to the readers. You can feel it. The roads are confusing, and due to the baggage and number of travellers, Yoren and his motley crew are moving slow, which is not ideal considering the Gold Cloaks are most certainly on their asses and coming for them. Muddy slopes, wheel ruts, and a stalled wagon that is carrying wood with no way to get around has not helped, and neither did the really slow moving ox, once the carts were back on course and the animal was re-hitched.

I remember reading this a few years ago. I was nervous for Arya, Gendry, Hot Pie, Yoren, ok, Lommy…and feeling the urgency and wanting to yell:

“Ok, come on now, let’s get a friggin’ move on here!” to an imaginary ox and characters. “The Gold Cloaks are coming, you fools! Sort of like Nicholas Cage in Honeymoon in Vegas… “Just get your goddamned ticket and move on!!!!” Or that is sort of how I picture it. Just replace “ticket” with moldy, warped, creaky “ox cart.” And with no Ben Stein.

Ok, I will see myself out of my own essay….

Arya is tense. Constantly looking over her shoulder for Gold Cloaks, unable to truly rest at sleep, with a few fingers on Needle at all times. She had no faith in the fact that sentries were up at night on patrol. Young boys and she felt that KL was not what they were dealing with here currently.

And especially, because she was able to get past them all the time to pee without them being none the wiser, and I can only imagine her eye roll and scoffing at the boys’ pathetic protection protocol. Yeah, Night’s Watch, riiiigggghhhhttt, she must mumble under her breath. She even states her temptation that once, when she climbed a tree, she almost decided to jump down and land on Lommy to scare the bejesus out of him. But knowing he would scream, she decided not to. Also, that Yoren would whack her something silly. Again.

Ok, now her thoughts shift to the Bull and a great quote.

“Lommy and the other orphans all treated the Bull like someone special now because the queen wanted his head, though he would have none of it.”

Yeah, because he is honest and genuine and modest, and would never desire any special treatment. Also, he is probably confused and a bit on edge wondering what the hell is it about him that he had done.

And I know Martin’s humor. I almost wonder if it is a jab. All these people are treating a nobody like something special, and the irony is that, it will turn out that one day, HE IS. Or that he is special already. We know he is Robert’s son, son of a king. He is a Baratheon. Part Targ and Estermont too. Just throwing that in because I love his character and I am shamelessly promoting his bloodlines. Sorry!

“I never did nothing to no queen,” he said angrily. “I did my work is all. Bellow and tongs and fetch and carry. I was s’posed to be an armorer, and one day Master Mott says I got to join the Night’s Watch, that’s all I know.”

He has to explain away to others almost like he is still trying to go over it and make some clarifications and reviews of his steps and life for himself.

Touching, endearing, and his innocence to it all of it is heartbreaking. His point being, that, well, what the hell, hard work, not bothering anyone, and minding your business, and you still get in trouble.

All the best people do, Bull. It always seems to happen to the good ones. Trouble, that is. And you really want to jump off your couch and jump into the book and just tell him who the hell he is already….

Or at least, I do.

“Then he’d go off to polish his helm.” So he still goes to what brings him comfort and what he thinks is right. Keep moving on and working. Do something.

Also, it makes it sound like this was a cycle or it happened a few times. Perhaps, even a routine. He gets a bit bent out of shape, goes off on how he has no idea what the hell happened, and then he polishes his helm some more.

But more about that….his careful handling and care of the helm.

And don’t forget that it started from Day one. He refused, no matter the consequences, to sell it to Ned Stark. You know, Arya/Arry’s DAD….

“It was a beautiful helm, rounded and curved, with a slit visor, and two great metal bull’s horns. Arya would watch him polish the metal with an oilcloth, shining it so bright you could see the flames of the cookfire reflected in the steel. Yet he never actually put it on his head.”

The Italics for the last line are mine.

Let us back it up a bit. I think the description tells us that this young smith has formidable skill.

Not an artist or craftsperson, so bear with me, but I would think we can deduce some info here.

Rounded and curved; to get metal in such a shape and have it smooth and without bumps or errors, and have it symmetrical, I would think, is not LEVEL 1 smithing. I would think, and please, if someone knows stuff about working with metal, please, by all means, let me know, and that the horns are the most difficult part to form and weld. Ok, and conical at the base, and tapering to points. To make it smooth, seamless, keep the shape, and to make it symmetrical/identical as a pair. Er, I would think, would take some mad skills.

To be fair, it is a slit visor, which I think is not the same as an articulated one that rises and falls, which would show more skill, or that is not the design he had in mind?

Also, that he makes sure he has an oilcloth on him still to polish it everyday. Probably still from KL?

I like to think of it as him rubbing a genie lamp, wishing for better or for life to be a bit more clear to him, his purpose, and really, it is right friggin’ under his nose. Or even a bit of a crystal ball in a way.

Because something is going on with those two avatar men: Hound and Bull. Hound helm which is now iconic, and this yet to reach full potential bull helm.

And, hey, they both like Stark ladies.

Just don’t tell Arya or Big Nyms I called her a lady.

Ok, now this part….

“Yet he never actually put it on his head.”

He has to find himself, and he has not yet. FACT. But we have seen he his on his way. His identity has not yet been revealed. To himself, and to really everyone else except a small few. We know that Ned knew, Jon Arryn knew, Stannis knows, and possibly others, and very soon Brienne will know. Thoros is not counted out yet by me either. He will not slip on the helm yet full time; he needs a bit more time. He will eventually, and truly become the Bull, like the Hound was once the Hound, but in a better way. Like a Stark is known as a direwolf. But he will still have much more to do to reach the end of the road and his identity, but when he puts it on permanently, and the helm matches the ready persona inside of him, he will reach and have his feet on the beginning of the path at least, and it will pick up from there. I think of him polishing and handling carefully his helm, as Dany cradling her dragon eggs in the beginning, wishful and hopeful. But he is not in touch with it yet, not ready to do it at that point, either from within, or fate is playing its hand.

There is a point when he does put it on, more on that later…. I like to think he is getting more comfortable to being open and embracing things. Beric knighted him, he has a bit of security, a place, comrades, work, he is smithing, even currently working on a sword, he saves Brienne from Biter, which is big, and she recognizes who he is. But the organization he is with has been having problems, and my main concern, is if that will put any problems in his way, either thwart for a bit, or activate his progress? But he does have a long road ahead. I like to think there are pros and cons to being with BWB and all that has happened to him so far in the series. I like to think of it as stepping stones. But obviously, things are going to take a turn with the BWB, Thoros, Uncat, Brienne, Jaime, the orphanage, and other events, and that is when he will or will have to step it up. I think this is when the Bull emerges more.

My crystal ball is cloudy too with this. You know when I ramble, so I will put it down for now. I did it with the Feathebed Song. I do it with prophecies too.

The character of Gendry is tension, potential, and possibility. Just a great character. He just hasn’t gotten his Hogwarts letter yet.

Ah, the Stark girls and their animal avatar men…

Paging Edric Storm. Bueller….Bueller….Bueller….Wow, that is two Ben Stein references in one essay so far. I may do a Gendry and Edric little written piece thingie one day. I think we know who I favor. Also, I think we need to do a TV Gendry/Arya piece too. Different in some ways, but things/facets of the characters I think are spot on and well done, and ones that echo the book and how I envision the characters. They both bring much to the table. But let me not get off topic here….

And now for a little apprehension….

This:

“…shining it so bright you could see the flames of the cookfire reflected in the steel.”

You ever get that feeling when you notice something in your food. Like a bug or something, and you pick it out, you want it the way you thought it would be, decide you can’t partake, and throw it all away?

Ok, the quote above. People, what the hell is this? Anyone? Bueller….Bueller? R’hllor…R’hllor? Did I even friggin’ spell this right? I still can’t. It has only been years though…

Er….uh….was that a hint at the future with the BWB and fire and R’hllor? Maybe, a little teensy hint by the author that he will forge some type of sword? Totally reading into this, and it could be my Martin paranoia that flares up, well, ALL OF THE TIME!

So let me leave that to marinate a bit. I don’t know how to take it either.

Back to Arya.

Lommy whispers, so Gendry can’t hear. Smart boy….that he is probably the traitor, Ned Stark’s bastard.

You know….ARYA’s DAD….that Gendry met and that KNOWS his identity.

This series causes me multitudes of undue stress. I face palm at the irony again.

Anyway…

Arya gets pissed. It is her father. She wishes to leave and just go it alone on home. She doesn’t.

The Yoren-adventures-in-babysitting- journey continues…

And I have never done this before, but I am going to cut off about mid-chapter.

1. A lot more coming up

2. I think this is long enough

3. Because of 2. I didn’t think I would have as much to say regarding this one, and I was wrong. A lot to say, and even more next time.

So, Bueller….Bueller….Pie, Hot?

Present.

Arya?

Present.

Bull?

Present.

Booknerd?

Present. And ready for some more Rethinking Romance….very soon.

[Reek Havoc]

And now for a little apprehension….

This:

“…shining it so bright you could see the flames of the cookfire reflected in the steel.”

You ever get that feeling when you notice something in your food. Like a bug or something, and you pick it out, you want it the way you thought it would be, decide you can’t partake, and throw it all away?

Ok, the quote above. People, what the hell is this? Anyone? Bueller….Bueller? R’hllor…R’hllor? Did I even friggin’ spell this right? I still can’t. It has only been years though…

Er….uh….was that a hint at the future with the BWB and fire and R’hllor? Maybe, a little teensy hint by the author that he will forge some type of sword? Totally reading into this, and it could be my Martin paranoia that flares up, well, ALL OF THE TIME!

Wow! Nice start, booknerd. :) It's funny, that part always stuck out for me, too, but I always passed it off as me over-analyzing and looking for foreshadowing where it wasn't since I could never quite put my finger on WHY it stuck out. But you're right... there's definitely a hint hidden in there regarding his future with R'hllor and the BWB when you know what to look for. As for the sword, we already know he's forging A sword.... whether or not it will be THE sword, only time will tell. Though, if there is a THE sword, I certainly can't think of anyone else that would be better qualified.

So I went back and read the specific paragraph that you were looking at so that I could read the sentence in its entirety and found something that reinforced something I think I already knew... or at least suspected, at any rate.

Arya would watch him polish the metal with an oilcloth, shining it so bright you could see the flames of the cookfire reflected in the steel.

To me, there is a difference between seeing and watching. Seeing is just temporarily noticing, where watching is noticing for a more lengthy period of time. Would watch implies that she watched on a fairly regular basis. From afar? Maybe, but that's not the undertone that I'm picking up on, personally. To me, this is just a small glimpse at what the difference between friendship and companionship means in regards to the two of them. They naturally gravitate towards each other, even to the point of being in one another's presence when they are neither saying anything nor doing anything together. Even at this early stage, just being in one another's company seems to be a comfortable (and maybe comforting?), natural thing. And all this before Gendry even realizes that she's a girl!

[LongRider]

I don't ship Arya & Gendry, however I've enjoyed booknerd's, reek havoc's and others delving more deeply into the text. Makes the whole story more interesting and fun.

Keep up the good work!

[Parizad]

In case of Arya and Gendry, I just hope the history does not repeat itself. I mean Arya is like Lyanna and Gendry is like Robert and already more in love with her than she is with him... It would be heartbreaking if Arya runs off with a prince charming later although I hope Gendry is less promiscuous than his dad.

Sorry I'm commenting on Arya/Gendry a bit out of time. I just found the time to read this thread!

[Reek Havoc]

In case of Arya and Gendry, I just hope the history does not repeat itself. I mean Arya is like Lyanna and Gendry is like Robert and already more in love with her than she is with him... It would be heartbreaking if Arya runs off with a prince charming later although I hope Gendry is less promiscuous than his dad.

Sorry I'm commenting on Arya/Gendry a bit out of time. I just found the time to read this thread!

Ugh. I shudder to admit it, but I've had those same concerns myself, specifically in regards to what might happen if Arya were to ever meet Aegon. Especially when Aegon has Jon Connington around to tell the two of them all about the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna. But then, in order to soothe my frayed nerves whenever the thought crosses my mind, I remind myself that there are only supposed to be two books left, and I doubt that whatever could happen between Arya and Aegon within that short of a time span could compare to the history that Arya and Gendry have had together. Now keep in mind... this is just what I tell myself. A girl must calm herself, after all. ;)

But one thing that Gendry has going for him is that he is not Robert. In fact, other than the fact that they look alike, he may even be the anti-Robert. He takes no interest in whores, doesn't seem to drink very often from what we've seen, and is extremely responsible. I mean come on... can you imagine Robert watching after orphans the way Gendry has? He could barely stand to be in the presence of his own children. He's a simple guy with simple needs, where Robert was the King (bad pun totally intended) of overindulgence.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

But one thing that Gendry has going for him is that he is not Robert. In fact, other than the fact that they look alike, he may even be the anti-Robert. He takes no interest in whores, doesn't seem to drink very often from what we've seen, and is extremely responsible. I mean come on... can you imagine Robert watching after orphans the way Gendry has? He could barely stand to be in the presence of his own children. He's a simple guy with simple needs, where Robert was the King (bad pun totally intended) of overindulgence.

Remember Varys' speech about how Aegon would make a good king because [reasons]? Well, also Gendry. He has been through the same [reasons] but without the safety net :P

[Reek Havoc]

Remember Varys' speech about how Aegon would make a good king because [reasons]? Well, also Gendry. He has been through the same [reasons] but without the safety net :P

Agreed! So it's settled? Gendry for king? lol I love it.

But alas..

Aegon would make a good king for those of nobility. He has all the proper training... swords, reading and writing, etc.

Gendry would be a good king to the people. The common folk. He's seen the plight of the everyday person, both from being one himself / being raised by one, and his travels with Yoren / Arya / BwB. Plus, I think he's at least smart enough to know that he knows very little about dealing with nobility and hopefully find good, trustworthy people to advise him on... well, just about everything, to be honest. But that's okay! Every good king has even better advisers.

A pity that it's only nobility that has their hands in who becomes king, be it through birth, various plots/ schemes, murder, or what have you. Unfortunately, the common folk are forced to suck it up and take what they get.

But before I get myself COMPLETELY off-topic...

Arya + Gendry :wub: Yay!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Agreed! So it's settled? Gendry for king? lol I love it.

But alas..

Aegon would make a good king for those of nobility. He has all the proper training... swords, reading and writing, etc.

They both should marry.