Maybe Rhaegar was obsessed with Lyanna?

[Mariagoner]

Selmy must be really fucked up

and Arthur, When and Gerold...

Maybe they all had roughly the same intelligence level of Rhaegar.

Honestly, at the end of the day, I don't care what a bunch of minor characters or Ned Stark or whoever thought of Rhaegar. I don't depend on other people (especially fictional people) to tell me what I should think about a character. My opinion is that I literally can't think of a single intelligent decision he ever made. Not a one. So what does it matter to me if he was beautiful or could play the hapr or thought he was saving the world or loved Lyanna or read many books and was a scholar or farted perfume and candy-hearts? He was an idiot and he got a lot of innocent people killed because he had the planning skills of defrosted road-kill. He's like the polar opposite of Roose Bolton -- all heart and no discernible brains at all.

To use TVTropes terminology, Rhaegar pretty much has the informed attribute of intelligence without GRRM ever going to the trouble of demonstrating it. We're told over and over that he's oh so brilliant -- but where's the actual evidence of it? What act have we ever seen him do that seems particularly intelligent? And I don't care if there's a lot of the story we haven't seen -- he litereally has never done anything brilliant onscreen. Never! So if GRRM wants me to think Rhaegar's some towering intellect whose plans were thwarted by fate alone, I am really not buying it. That's just bad writing on GRRM's part.

(Unless, of course, GRRM was clever enough to want to completely subvert the idea of the 'perfect prince' by introducing Rhagear -- the handsome and scholarly young prince whose lack of any practical intelligence actually doomed him and his grandiose plans completely. If so -- damn, GRRM, good job!)

[Nami]

What? :lmao:

I'm sorry but the story is told from the characters perspective, if we don't go with what they say then how can we know anything? from fanfiction?

Whoa this comment really threw me back a little

And that's fine though, but it's an excuse for mindless haters.

Lyanna is the perfect little angel but strong enough to want to be independent and Rhaegar is the asshole who took advantage of her. If that is your cup of tea, great, but don't claim as the canon for the universe GRRM is building THROUGH his characters POVs.

Perhaps you'll be better off reading fanfiction where Lyanna is awesome and Rhaegar is cuckoo.

I think I'm pretty much done here

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

What? :lmao:

I'm sorry but the story is told from the characters perspective, if we don't go with what they say then how can we know anything? from fanfiction?

Whoa this comment really threw me back a little

Yes but GRRM once made it very clear we shouldn't rely on characters POV for truth as they are very bias, had we only had Dany's POV for the whole series we would of thought all starks are ursurpers dogs.

[Nami]

Yes but GRRM once made it very clear we shouldn't rely on characters POV for truth as they are very bias, had we only had Dany's POV for the whole series we would of thought all starks are ursurpers dogs.

And Barristan Selmy is biased?

So he thinks ill of Aerys but has good thoughts on Rhaegar?

I feel like I'm arguing with haters, and it's always a waste of time to me. So, let's just agree to disagree and you all can gather and hate because of your head canons/fanfiction while I stand out of the way.

[Mariagoner]

And Barristan Selmy is biased?

So he thinks ill of Aerys but has good thoughts on Rhaegar?

And Reek worships his master Ramsay and Cersei thinks the sun shines out of Joffrey's psychopathic ass. Should I love Ramsay and Joffrey as well, because some people think well of them?

Barristan Selmy might be a mostly good man but he hardly seems brilliant himself. He's mostly good at tactics and sticking people with pointy bits. (Which is a damn handy skillset, by the way.) And he was fine with plenty of morally dubious actions, like watching Aerys physically and mentally abuse his poor wife for years on end without lifting a single finger to help her. (The fact that he feels bad about it hardly excuses it!) I wouldn't look to him as some amazing moral guru whose insights into human nature exceed mine.

In fact, I wouldn't look to any of the characters to tell me what to think. I rather enjoy having opinions of my own, honestly.

Honestly, if the best defense for Rhaegar is that a bunch of people liked him and GRRM might be hiding some secret facts that make him appear to be a brilliant genius instead of a deluded fool in strong need of simple common sense, I'm pretty happy with my decision to dislike this character. Seriously, what's he got going for him besides a good reputation and shiny hair?

He's like the bloody prom queen of Westeros -- he does nothing but he looks good doing it, so he gets a hell of a lot of unearned credit.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

And Barristan Selmy is biased?

So he thinks ill of Aerys but has good thoughts on Rhaegar?

I feel like I'm arguing with haters, and it's always a waste of time to me. So, let's just agree to disagree and you all can gather and hate because of your head canons/fanfiction while I stand out of the way.

I didn't say Selmy is biased, I just mean that we cant take what every character says as the ultimate truth. As many people in westeros are of different opinions. Yes you may accept selmy, since he is a respected KG but there is always the possibility of his statements being false, sorry if I angered you in anyway :frown5:

[Steve Moss II]

Rhaegar has a uniformly positive reputation. Everyone, including his father's enemies, admired him.

GRRM doesn't do perfect characters. For example, Ned is a very good man but dangerously naive (an unforgivable sin for a lord of one of the great houses). What was/were Rhaegar's flaw(s)?

Just as a matter of impression, Rhaegar reminds me of a Bobby Kennedy. A very talented, public spirited "prince" who was killed before he could realize his potential and, by rumor, had a weakness for women. Perhaps the same was true and Ned's contemplating (and disbelieving) whether Rhaegar visiting brothels was a clue?

[Nami]

Rhaegar has a uniformly positive reputation. Everyone, including his father's enemies, admired him.

GRRM doesn't do perfect characters. For example, Ned is a very good man but dangerously naive (an unforgivable sin for a lord of one of the great houses). What was/were Rhaegar's flaw(s)?

Just as a matter of impression, Rhaegar reminds me of a Bobby Kennedy. A very talented, public spirited "prince" who was killed before he could realize his potential and, by rumor, had a weakness for women. Perhaps the same was true and Ned's contemplating (and disbelieving) whether Rhaegar visiting brothels was a clue?

His flaws are many:

- naive

- sheltered so very much ignorant of real life

- being the only male heir for so long, his view of himself must have been very highly, not to the point of arrogance, but in a way that he thought he could no wrong and he could do everything great

- abandoned his family for selfish reasons

[Mariagoner]

Just as a matter of impression, Rhaegar reminds me of a Bobby Kennedy. A very talented, public spirited "prince" who was killed before he could realize his potential and, by rumor, had a weakness for women. Perhaps the same was true and Ned's contemplating (and disbelieving) whether Rhaegar visiting brothels was a clue?

I'm perfectly willing to believe that Rhaegar didn't visit brothels and didn't have much of a weakness for the flesh. (Though I wouldn't doubt his relish at screwing 14-year-old barely-post-pubescent Lyanna from sunrise to sunset in his creepy phallic Tower of Joy.) But I really enjoy the idea that Rhaegar is a wonderful subversion of the Wise Prince trope. (See tvtropes for more.) People love the idea of a perfect young prince who is wise beyond his years, is a supernaturally good leader, is tenderly in love with a beautiful young woman for her kindness and strength as well as her beauty, and does what he does for the good of the people. Rhaegar is set up to be the Aragon of ASOIAF, if you will. No wonder so many people love him and defend him ferociously!

And Rhaegar looks perfect, appears wise, inspires people as a leader, loves (or 'loves') Lyanna apparently for her strength as well as her beauty, and risks it all to fulfill a prophecy to save the world.

But he's a terrible planner. And wretched at understanding that the real world will not always meet his ideals. And that people can act against his plans unknowingly or being predictable. And then everyone he loves gets killed.

It's honestly the perfect subversion of this time honored trope -- and what makes it better is how subtlely its done!

[Pikachu101]

What was/were Rhaegar's flaw(s)?

1. He's painfully naive

2. He doesn't understand the concept of long term planning

3. He abandoned his wife and kids

4. He didn't even try to sue for peace

5. Whilst Westeros was at war he decided to continue trying to get Lyanna pregnant

6. He's a terrible negotiator

7. He put a song/woman (depends on your interpretation) at more importance than his people

8. He caused the deaths of thousands

[ellisg]

And Reek worships his master Ramsay.

Off topic, I know, but there is no way Reek worships Ramsey. All that sucking up to him and wanting to please Ramsey is through a fear of being flayed if he upsets Ramsey. Through that we can all see what a monster Ramsey is. If somebody could have guaranteed Reek a way to kill Ramsey he'd have been dead in an instant. As for Cersei, she suffers from a very, very sever case of My Child Can Do No Wrong Syndrome. Unless it's Tommen... he just makes it harder for her to rule in peace.

[Olennaaaaaa!!!]

Good point, didn't Barristan say that he didn't really know Rhaegar that well, compared to Arthur Dayne, so it could still be likely that he didn't see mad prophecy obsessed Rhaegarstiltskin,

oooo I find it pretty telling that he said he didn't really know Rhaegar that well. Please, you're in the Kingsguard, and you're saying you don't know the prince that well?? I don't buy that. When Barristan said that to Dany, I felt like he was just trying not to reveal some harsh truth about Rhaegar, without lying and saying he was a great guy. He probably didn't want Dany to feel like her entire family were shitty people. The only ones (of her nuclear family/blood relatives) she really knows that much about are Aerys and Viserys, and they were awful. Barristan has got to know more than he's letting on.

[corbon]

If the people helping them were from House Dayne, then they could still be loyal to and honour Ned's wish and not say anything about Jon and Lyanna.

There are two known people who would be old enough to know what happened, and that's Allyria and Wylla,and so far, of both of them know, they've kept quiet.

We don't know how old Allyria is, but consider she has been engaged for 6 years to a Lord now in his mid 20s... it seems she rather young - too young to have been alive at the time.

If you find a midwife anywhere, let me know. Because all I remember is Ned finding Lyanna lying in a pool of blood after she screams his name in exhaustion. So... not really great planning on Rhaegar's part.

Wrong fact, and almost certainly wrong fact.

There was no 'pool of blood'. Its a 'bed of blood' which is repeatedly used as a synonym for a birthing bed, and definitely does not mean that there was a pool of blood - indeed, there could not bewas not, since was was in a bed.

She also didn't scream IIRC. That was Ned's steward Poole, calling him in RL and being injected into the dream.

(I mean, goddamn, if her prophesized child is so important, I'd have surrounded by as many loyal mid-wifes and/or maestars as I could freaking find. What's the use of fighting a damn war for her and the child if they both die during child-birth?)

Loyal too who? Aerys is as much a danger (more, probably) to the child as the rebels are.

And whose to say he didn't?

I still don't see anything that convinces me that Aerys was some paragon of mental health even before the rebellion or that Rhaegar wasn't acting recklessly and irresponsibly in leaving his father in charge while he ran off with Lyanna. (Leaving... what? A few notes behind to explain his actions? That... really doesn't help much.)

No one said anything about being a paragon of health.

But here's the thing. Aerys is in charge. Period. No bullshit about "Rhaegar leaving Aerys in charge" while he disappeared. Aerys was in charge, and Rhaegar had no part in the government and no power against his father. Thats it. Period.

For god's sake, Aerys' nickname was The Mad King. Not The Slightly Loony King. Or The Wee Bit Tetchy King.

Not at the time it wasn't.

Every instance of Aerys being called the Mad King is after the war started. Every single one.

And at the start of the war most of the country still supported Aerys, even after his new level of madness had been demonstrated, even against their own lords and family in some cases.

He was so nuts that he was mauling his wife constantly,

Bullshit. We have one time evidence of that, and it was near the end of the war, not before.

becoming increasingly erratic in his decisions,

This is an invention. We have no evidence of that before the trial of Brandon. We do see him getting very paraniod, but there is zero evidence of his decision making becoming erratic other than this paranoia.

But why let facts or honestly get in the way of a good hating?

getting practically everyone to hate him and even Rhaegar wanted to dethrone him -- although Rhaegar somehow decided it would make sense to do it after creating a horribly unstable political situation.

Seriously. The Mad King. How much more warning do you need not to let this guy in charge?

Hardly anybody hated him. He still had the majorty of support throughout the seven kingdoms. And thats after he went madder at Brandon's trial.

And so is being called the Mad King. But again, why let facts get in the way of a good hate?

I'm not really fond of the idea of anyone except Howland knowing about Jon. Ned couldn't stop him from seeing what was right in front of him, but I don't see why he would go and tell House Dayne; they have no loyalty to Ned and he just killed Arthur.

I don't know why Ned would tell a maid, all she needs to do is tend to Jon for a while. He doesn't need to tell her the full story. Also considering Allyria was betrothed to Beric for five years I'm going to presume she's quite young, which means she would have been a small child when RR happened; she's hardly someone he would delve information with.

As noted, the Daynes are already in on this, through Arthur. And someone had to be supporting ToJ for several months from a logistical frame, which again, given the location, points to Arthur and Starfall.

And the Daynes have loyalty to the Targaryens, which is enough for them to keep quiet. The alternative is get Jon illed by telling on Ned to Robert.

As for Wylla being the midwife I'm not really convinced :dunno:

Ned would've mentioned her and I don't know why Rhaegar would hire a simple servant instead of a Maester to tend to Lyanna

There is no reason why Ned would have mentioned her. He hardly mentions anything.

And secrecy would be the reason, assuming in the first place that there wasn't a maester there.

I think it's a bit far fetched to say there's more survivors and witnesses. One of these people would rat it out; why wouldn't they?

Until further evidence I'm going to stick with HR being the only survivor, I can't stand the idea of there being more witnesses.

Thats not exactly a solid reason for defying the explicit text!

"I don't like it, so I'll just ignore that the text explicitly says there was at least one more person present." And logic also says the same.

Do you wonder why there is so little respect, and exasperation, from arguments based on this? And wrong facts up the wazzoo too.

Honestly, I've always found that to be incredibly implausable. Even if you're someone who genuinely believes Rhaegar was a good man who was truly trying to do... well... something good (how many people seriously know about his prophecy? And surely even fewer believe it) by running off with a willing Lyanna, why are people so eager to forgive his short-sightedness and poor planning skills?

Because the planning seems to be vastly better than the ignorant shouting about how there wasn't any planning.

Because the characters who were involved understand tthe situations quite a lot better than a few ignorant readers do, so their judgement is likely a lot sounder.

If I were Ned, I'd still be harboring plenty of anger or at least ambivalence about Rhaegar -- given that the man's actions contributed to the death of beloved family members in one way or another. (Especially Lyanna's, given that Rhaegar was the one to impregnate her in incredibly stressful situations -- perhaps that was another factor in her death in child-birth.) But instead, people like Ned and Barristan act as though Rhaegar's romping off with his hot little teenage prophecy-harborer while leaving King Crazy in charge was just an unfortunate oversight that anyone could have made.

..

I just don't understand why no one but Robert seems to harbor a burning desire to plant their boot up Rhaegar's pretty ass for starting all the shit that went down without realizing just what he was doing. It's really psychologically bizarre to me!

Its a huge waving red flag that your assessment of the scene is way off. You should reassess the scene first and you'll see that there is nothing psychologically bizarre happening here. Its all perfectly logical.

[corbon]

That doesn't make any sense :dunno:

How would "going off the radar" stop people from not getting angry? What Rhaegar did was incredibly stupid and shortsighted.

It doesn't stop them being angry, it does stop them doing something about it.

He took a girl whose a Stark and betrothed to a Baratheon if he thought not telling anyone was the best option then he's on the same level as Cersei when it comes to political ineptness.

Who said he didn;t tell anyone?

Oh yeah - it couldn't possibly happen, despite the way it explains so much, because we weren't told about it. We are always told every detail we need in this series...

Everyone knew Aerys was mad it was why Rhaegar had decided to overthrow him. You don't suddenly become mad during a rebellion, it was years before as well.

That's simply not accurate.

He was paranoid before the rebellin, but still functional and widely supported.

The very first sign we have of anything more than personal paranoia is Brandon's Trial.

Then why didn't he come out after Brandon and Rickard's deaths?

If you're so sure he tried to make contact then by all means Rhaegar should have come out of hiding and make some contact with the angry Starks.

What good does that do?

Aerys is still in charge and the damage has been done. Lyanna is an irrelevance now, the rebellion is about Aerys's murders and/or the orders for Ned and Robert's heads..

But he didn't, which is why I'm certain it never occurred to him because he's shortsighted and foolish. And when Lyanna finds out she's going to freak because reality punched her in the face, and Rhaegar couldn't possibly lose Visenya so he kept her under lock and key without telling anyone.

Pure invention.

I don't need 100% of the facts on Rhaegar or Lyanna to decide their actions were reckless in various ways. Off the top of my head, I believe Rhaegar was reckless was:

Oh great, so we'll start with a conclusion, then make up and distort facts to support it?

1) He ran off with the daughter of a high lord who was also engaged to another high lord apparently based on a prophecy

Yep. Prophecy of course being demonstrably real in his world.

2) He angered the Starks, including Brandon Stark -- a young man known for having a sharp temper and being impulsive, which made it easy to imagine him riling up Aerys in one way or another

There is no evidence for any stark other than Brandon being angered. And we don;t know what (truth or lies) made Brandon angry exactly.

By removing himself and Lyanna from the picture, there was little or nothing even a hothead like Brandon could do to make things worse.

Unfortunately Brandon wasn't just hotheaded, he was also incredibly stupid - he did something which had zero chance of any sort of positive outcome!

Who can possibly predict and account for that level if stupidity?

3) He angered the Baratheons, including Robert Baratheon -- a young man known for having a sharp temper and being impulsive, which made it easy to imagine him riling up Aerys in one way or another (sensing a trend here?)

Bullshit. There is no evdience of any Baratheon reaction until Aerys called for Robert's head.

Stannis even struggled as to which side to join...

4) He angered the Martells, including Oberyn Martell -- a young man known for having a sharp temper and being impulsive, which made it easy to imagine him riling up Aerys in one way or another (which makes not 1 or 2 but 3 hot-headed men who could end up destroying all of Rhaegar's plans on the spur of the moment!)

Nothing major though. The Martells still support the Taragaryens even now. They weren't happy, but they were still supporters. It was only Aerys' paranoia that made things worse.

5) He apparently left no known information on his whereabouts after he fled, leading to even more general panic among the involved parties about what the hell was happening

Bullshit. There is no evidence of any panic by anyone.

And we don't know what he left behind, only that no one could tell Aerys where he was. But they certainly found him when he was back in favour.

6) And this is his most critical mistake yet -- he left his bat-shit crazy dad in charge as he left to go on his honeymoon cruise with Lyanna. What did he think batshit crazy dad would do? Pleasantly calm any ruffled tempers among the Starks, Baratheons and Martells, even the hot-headed and impulsive young men among them that might well cause a scene trying to find Rhaegar and Lyanna? What was the best case scenario?

Bullshit. He didn't leave his dad in charge of anything, his dad was already in charge.

And his dad wasn't batshit crazy (so far), just paranoid.

7) Not immediately emerging from hiding after receiving news of the Starks -- or being dumb enough not to figure out how to get that news in the first place. (If there was some lag in getting news to and from the hilariously named Tower of Joy, that's on Rhaegar. What, he's too stupid to have a decent spy system of his own?) Letting an already terrible situation escalate for months without his involvement was ridiculous.

Maybe fair, maybe not.

The thing about droping off the radar is that it works best if you are off the radar. And given he's hiding from Aerys as much or more than the rebels, that means being really off the Radar.

Besides, there mere act of disappearing should forestall anything, right? I mean, what can anyone do? Aerys and the Starks are likely to be on the same side here. Who could imagine Brandon doing something so ridiculously counterproductive, thats sets the Starks up against Aerys when they should be working together?

8) Not shuffling Elia and his two young children away from King's Landing before he went off with Lyanna. He should have known that if things went poorly enough, they might well be in danger -- as they ultimately were. Why didn't he make up some excuse (diplomatic visit? family obligations? keeping an eye on the Martells?) to send them off to Dorne, a nearly impregnable strong-hold of Elia's family? Instead he leaves them with King Crazy -- who of course makes asshole decisions that ultimately kill poor Elia and her children off. So much for his three heads of the dragon. And if I were poor Elia, I would rue the day I ever married this starry-eyed fool whose plans helped to lead me to die in the most horrific manner possible.

That is a more stupid assessment than any claim against Rhaegar. Elia and his kids are safer there than anywhere else, and Aerys would never act against them. They are Aerys' own family, the bride Aerys chose for Rhaegar. And remember that Aerys is following prophecy too (a different one, though related) when he gave up his 'love' and married his sister as required.

Aerys at all. It wasn't as though Aerys was a quietly emotionally unstable man who suddenly went nuts after Brandon Stark came screaming into his palace. The man boasted 3 foot long fitlhy finger-nails,

Actually, it pretty much is that. Aerys was paranoid, and the hair and nails thing came directly from that paranoia, but otherwise he was quietly unstable and did suddenly go nuts after Brandon Stark came screaming into his palace (reinforcing his paranoia I might add). He was a successful functuoning ruler before that event, and still backed by more people han not after that event.

But why let the facts get in the way of a good hating?

liked to watch people die in flames,

There is no evidence of this before Bradon Starks's trial.

physically abused his poor wife,

There is no evidence of this before Brandon Stark's trial.

and was so paranoid about his own son that he set Varys' spies on Rhaegar.

Or so we are told. But that wouldn't be the first king to have his heir spied on and wouldn't even be unfair either, would it now?

But why let the facts get in the way of a good hating?

[Pikachu101]

It doesn't stop them being angry, it does stop them doing something about it.

Sure it does :)

I mean if I was a hot blooded Northerner who though my little sister was kidnapped I wouldn't be screaming for blood either just because the kidnapper wasn't there.

You're just making Rhaegar sound dumber than he already is.

Who said he didn;t tell anyone?

Oh yeah - it couldn't possibly happen, despite the way it explains so much, because we weren't told about it. We are always told every detail we need in this series...

Who did he tell? Because he clearly didn't tell the Starks, Baratheons, Martells etc.

And even if you insist he did that doesn't change the fact that he never came out of hiding the minute he realised his message was never received.

That's simply not accurate.

He was paranoid before the rebellin, but still functional and widely supported.

The very first sign we have of anything more than personal paranoia is Brandon's Trial.

Yeah sure, you clearly haven't been reading the books

First of all his madness became clear after the Defiance of Duskendale; 7 years before RR.

Secondly if Aerys' first bout of insanity was after Brandon's execution Rgaegar wouldn't be adamant on overthrowing him.

Thirdly Aerys was known to use wildfire to execute alleged traitors; showing he was a tyrant and Brandon was the last straw to a series of tyranny and brutality.

Fourthly:

Catelyn: "Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it"

Brienne: "Aerys was mad and cruel, no one has ever denied that"

You don't get that reputation from a two year long rebellion.

What good does that do?

Aerys is still in charge and the damage has been done. Lyanna is an irrelevance now, the rebellion is about Aerys's murders and/or the orders for Ned and Robert's heads..

Oh I don't know maybe a little thing called; compromise and negotiation.

Rhaegar gives them Lyanna and in return they support him when he tries to overthrow his father.

If Rhaegar had the same thinking as you then he's definitely got Cersei's political skills.

Pure invention.

Really?

So you think reality won't punch Lyanna in the face or do you think she's shallow and selfish so she wouldn't give a damn?

I don't see Rhaegar making any effort to stop the war or calm the furious North.

[Where Boars Glow]

People try to put Lyanna into the innocent victim role because they want Rhaegar to be the asshole

Starks are precious here

Or because she was 15 and he was 27....so maybe I hold him a bit more responsible for his actions.

[corbon]

Who did he tell? Because he clearly didn't tell the Starks, Baratheons, Martells etc.

You know this how?

You don't, but you'll claim it as truth anyway...

And even if you insist he did that doesn't change the fact that he never came out of hiding the minute he realised his message was never received.

Again, you know this how?

You don't, but you'll claim it as truth anyway...

Yeah sure, you clearly haven't been reading the books

First of all his madness became clear after the Defiance of Duskendale; 7 years before RR.

No, his paranoia began after Duskendale.

Try a reread...

Secondly if Aerys' first bout of insanity was after Brandon's execution Rgaegar wouldn't be adamant on overthrowing him.

Try again, please. Thats barely intelligible.

Before Brandon's trial, Rhaegar never actually tried to overthrow Aerys. Aerys thought he might have been planning something (he's paranoid remember) at Harrenhal, but forestalled it by going there himself. Rhaegar might have even been planning something, we don't know at that stage. He ceratinly wasn;t adamant about it though.

After Brandon's trial, much after, near the end of the war when Aerys has degenerated even further, we hear Rhaegar telling Jaime that he planned something, and speaking of roads not taken. Clearly he was not adamant before.

Thirdly Aerys was known to use wildfire to execute alleged traitors; showing he was a tyrant and Brandon was the last straw to a series of tyranny and brutality.

Evidence please, but I don't believe you have any. This is simply another lie I believe.

Bear in mind that this evidence must show the use of wildfire to execute alleged traitors before Brandon's trial, or you sir, are a liar.

Fourthly:

Catelyn: "Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it"

Brienne: "Aerys was mad and cruel, no one has ever denied that"

You don't get that reputation from a two year long rebellion.

A one year rebellion. You could at least get some facts right maybe?

Both those statements come from literally years and years after the fact. They do not show in any way people thought or said that before Brandon's trial.

Oh I don't know maybe a little thing called; compromise and negotiation.

Rhaegar gives them Lyanna and in return they support him when he tries to overthrow his father.

If Rhaegar had the same thinking as you then he's definitely got Cersei's political skills.

Compromise and negotiation have already gone the wayside, with the murder of Rickard, the death of Brandon, and the deaths of others since (such as Jon Arryn's heir?).

I don't see Rhaegar making any effort to stop the war or calm the furious North.

Stop the war by winning it, then being magnaminious in victory.

The war is not his doing. It was never about Lyanna, it was about the murder of Rickard and the orders to murder Ned and Robert as well.

[raegal_targaryen]

Hmm its true everyone says Rhaegar love Lyanna maybe it is a red herring, since Alfie said Jon's parentage is a bit like starwars when GRRM told him maybe Rhaegar is the bad guy all along :o

yeah well i dont think so its a bit like doesnt mean everything is like it.

[TorCub Tormundson]

The war is not his doing. It was never about Lyanna, it was about the murder of Rickard and the orders to murder Ned and Robert as well.

yeah because that happened on its own.

lyanna gets kidnapped > brandon gets himself imprisoned > rickard go to court and the mad kill has him burned alive.

[Nami]

Or because she was 15 and he was 27....so maybe I hold him a bit more responsible for his actions.

She died when she was 16 and he was 24...