Heresy 64

[addicted to snow]

Thank you for putting it so well - which is exactly why I occasionally refer to wargs as werewolves; they aren't just skinchangers hopping from host to host, but part direwolf.

What about the guy at the wall who skinchanges with the giant boar? He is said to be a very powerful warg, yet no direwolf...

[Black Crow]

Presumably the same principle; he and the boar are one.

[7V3N]

What about the guy at the wall who skinchanges with the giant boar? He is said to be a very powerful warg, yet no direwolf...

IIRC (and a quick but not thorough book search), he is never called a warg. Here is the appendix:

—BORROQ, called THE BOAR, a skinchanger, much feared,

and Tormund:

“Borroq.” Tormund turned his head and spat. “A skinchanger.” It was not a question. Somehow he knew.

and others:

As for Borroq, Othell Yarwyck claimed the woods north of Stonedoor were full of wild boars. Who was to say the skinchanger would not make his own pig army?

And so long as Borroq and his boar are about, I dare not let him loose.” The skinchanger was to accompany Soren Shieldbreaker to Stonedoor once the wayns carrying the Seal-skinner’s clan to Greenguard returned.

Borroq might be amongst those gathering at the Shieldhall. The last thing he needed just now was his wolf savaging the skinchanger’s boar.

Edit: Formatting

[Black Crow]

Seems pretty clear, thanks for checking.

[TheMtThatRides...Your Mom]

Grey Wind is a bit.... empty. I think the names are simply a reflection of their masters--Jon was quiet, silent, a true Milford Man; Bran chose Summer after seeing the heart of winter; Sansa was always the elegant Lady; Grey Wind just sounds cool and badass, something fitting with Robb's ego; Nymeria was a warrior queen and broke the gender norms in Dorne, very consistent with Arya; Shaggydog sounds like the name a little kid would choose and I think it is that simple.

I think Rickon is not anything insane, just outdated. He seems to be what the Starks were when they were openly werewolves and didn't have to appease the Andal customs. I think Rickon's status simply shows us that the North may again be independent under the Wolves of Winterfell.

love it....milford man. I wonder if jon says 'I have the worst fucking brothers' after he gets that fourth dagger...

[Urrax]

Sorry, what's a Milford man? :dunce:

[Peach Fuzz]

Rickon is... 5 years old? What people want? 19 years epilogue? A king desertor?

Even at Five he would be Lord/King inhis own right. The Lords in the north would flock to him ,A Stark with a direwolf

[addicted to snow]

Presumably the same principle; he and the boar are one.

You are correct... The Varamyr chapter from aDWDs explains the difference between wargs & skin-changers pretty clearly...

[Lockdown20]

I dunno--above all else, the thing that has made Rickon the way he is was not having his mother. Since then, he most likely has developed into viewing Osha as a motherly figure, so he does have some form of a controlling presence now, and then, in the future, we need to remember that Tyrion and Sansa are still married, and I feel that it is very important that Martin has not yet had the marriage annulled--for me, it's because the marriage will come back into play through Tyrion as Lord of Casterly Rock and Sansa as Lady of Winterfell (re)uniting the Seven Kingdoms, at which point Sansa, who very much takes after their mother, will be able to perform the motherly role to poor ole Rickon (and Sansa already has experience being a pseudo-mother to a difficult family member)

This

And to add, Sansa is also learning much and more about playing the game of politics in "civilized" Andal Westeros. Rickon is (we can infer) learning, being fostered in the ways of the First Men and the wildlings. (Yes he is young but I don't think as a reader that I need to actually see this play out as some complain about). If the wall is coming down and the wildlings are to be a part of Westeros, who better than these two to seam together the realms of men? Sansa is a Lady and Rickon a Shaggy Dog, our beauty and the beast. Although not in an incestual way, But as a complement to each other.

[Black Crow]

Just a further couple of thoughts on this warging and skinchangng business.

We have this little gem from AGoT Bran 1:

The wildlings were cruel men, she [Old Nan] said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

As skinchanging is not normally a human attribute and unknown south of the Wall, are the half human children skinchangers or even wargs - half man half beast?

There are questions arising of course, if the Others are narrowly interpreted as just the cold white walkers, but we have argued in the past for a wider and more inclusive definition, even without considering the question of some humans having Winter inside, as Adara did; because whatever way you look at it this skinchanging business is associated with the Old Gods.

The second thought I had relates to Sansa. As we've just discussed, wargs are not casual skinchangers but have a part of their direwolf inside them and vice versa. Now in Sansa's case there's no indication of wolf dreams or anything else untoward before Lady was killed, but presumably the link had been made. So is there a part of Lady still inside Sansa and might this be why she is starting to bare her teeth in response to that snowflake communion?

[7V3N]

Sorry, what's a Milford man? :dunce:

http://arresteddevelopment.wikia.com/wiki/You_can_always_tell_a_Milford_man

[TheMtThatRides...Your Mom]

Not to get too off topic but...have any of you guys seen Arrested Westeros? Pretty early on in season 1 I had made an entry of Cat as Tom Jane. Just a picture of Cat with "I just want my kids back" on it. Im gonna have to find that...

eta: found it! http://arrestedwesteros.com/post/5944167565/catelyn-stark-is-homeless-dad

[Urrax]

http://arresteddevel...l_a_Milford_man

Ah so. Thanks.

[7V3N]

Not to get too off topic but...have any of you guys seen Arrested Westeros? Pretty early on in season 1 I had made an entry of Cat as Tom Jane. Just a picture of Cat with "I just want my kids back" on it. Im gonna have to find that...

eta: found it! http://arrestedweste...is-homeless-dad

Yeah I have. Unfortunately, my post was rejected (might have upset too many people):

http://i.imgur.com/065tQov.jpg

[Lord Ravenstark]

Even at Five he would be Lord/King inhis own right. The Lords in the north would flock to him ,A Stark with a direwolf

Rickon can be a king, he was a child (and still is, if he is alive) the last time he appeared in the books he was just a child stressed and traumatized after "losing" (to death or just being away) both parents, two brother and two sisters... not an inate savage as people believe he is/will be. The desertor is about Jon, he would have to break his vows (and kill his sibling) to be a king.

[TheMtThatRides...Your Mom]

Yeah I have. Unfortunately, my post was rejected (might have upset too many people):

http://i.imgur.com/065tQov.jpg

Oh White Power Bill... Yeah pretty great site. some hilarious posts in there. they almost didnt take mine cause it was from like episode 2 and is kinda spoilerish.

eta: ok promise im done

[Joe Pine]

This

And to add, Sansa is also learning much and more about playing the game of politics in "civilized" Andal Westeros. Rickon is (we can infer) learning, being fostered in the ways of the First Men and the wildlings. (Yes he is young but I don't think as a reader that I need to actually see this play out as some complain about). If the wall is coming down and the wildlings are to be a part of Westeros, who better than these two to seam together the realms of men? Sansa is a Lady and Rickon a Shaggy Dog, our beauty and the beast. Although not in an incestual way, But as a complement to each other.

Beauty & the Beast sort of thing?

[Black Crow]

Rickon can be a king, he was a child (and still is, if he is alive) the last time he appeared in the books he was just a child stressed and traumatized after "losing" (to death or just being away) both parents, two brother and two sisters... not an inate savage as people believe he is/will be. The desertor is about Jon, he would have to break his vows (and kill his sibling) to be a king.

Rickon started off as a nice, well adjusted kid certainly, but the question is how he's going to recover from what he's been through, especially if his direwolf is ramping up that destructive energy.

As to Jon, in that last chapter he had pretty well decided to go his own way. In his mind he was still cleaving to his oath to protect the realms of men, but had come to recognise that the Watch was an obstacle rather than a means to fulfilling that oath. Hence his accepting the fealty of the Free Folk and his decision to march on Winterfell. In time that pragmatic attitude is also likely to see him accept that what will eventually accomplish this is not an apocalyptic battle but an accomodation with the Old Powers. This may well see him become King of Winter, but won't necessarily require him to kill Rickon in order to become lord of Winterfell as well.

[Peach Fuzz]

Rickon started off as a nice, well adjusted kid certainly, but the question is how he's going to recover from what he's been through, especially if his direwolf is ramping up that destructive energy.

As to Jon, in that last chapter he had pretty well decided to go his own way. In his mind he was still cleaving to his oath to protect the realms of men, but had come to recognise that the Watch was an obstacle rather than a means to fulfilling that oath. Hence his accepting the fealty of the Free Folk and his decision to march on Winterfell. In time that pragmatic attitude is also likely to see him accept that what will eventually accomplish this is not an apocalyptic battle but an accomodation with the Old Powers. This may well see him become King of Winter, but won't necessarily require him to kill Rickon in order to become lord of Winterfell as well.

I thought a heretical take could be Rikon as LOrd of Winterfell and Jon king of winter from the nightfort thus going back to the way it were before 'the usurpation of the NK'

But as you say Lord crow the wall may have to come down so there goes my theory.

Do we see all other races dying out or there still being a boundary between the two realms?

[Black Crow]

I thought a heretical take could be Rikon as LOrd of Winterfell and Jon king of winter from the nightfort thus going back to the way it were before 'the usurpation of the NK'

But as you say Lord crow the wall may have to come down so there goes my theory.

Do we see all other races dying out or there still being a boundary between the two realms?

Its a good question. In theory we could see Jon on the Wall as the King of Winter and Rickon as lord of Winterfell, which would indeed be turning full circle, but somehow I don't see it. As I said before Rickon, for good or ill, is really a touch too young to have a meaningful part in the outcome, other than perhaps in the final epilogue. Moreover I don't see that that would actually resolve anything beyond a return to the ancient status quo. Yes, the Wall will come down - or dissolve into a blizzard of ice crystals - but whether that will see the old races and the new; the realms of men and the otherlands co-existing in harmony at last, or whether we will indeed see the final defeat of the Old Powers is moot.