Does anyone find Magaery's accusations pointless?

[Sweetgirl205]

I don't trust Margeory. I really do think Cersie will be found innocent, and Margeory found guilty. If Cersie is found guilty, Margeory is no longer queen. It would be in the Tyrell's best interest to save Cersie.

On a side note, after the trials, Cersie thinks she's broken the curse. Sansa or Dany shows up and The Hound or Jamie kills Cersie's children. Thus, the curse is right.

[King Tam Stark]

Well, I would love to see either (although latter is disgusting), just not Marg free of charges at all.

disgusting but straight out of the book apart from the "giant of lannister" bit

[mrunderhill]

I don't trust Margeory. I really do think Cersie will be found innocent, and Margeory found guilty. If Cersie is found guilty, Margeory is no longer queen. It would be in the Tyrell's best interest to save Cersie.

On a side note, after the trials, Cersie thinks she's broken the curse. Sansa or Dany shows up and The Hound or Jamie kills Cersie's children. Thus, the curse is right.

Why exactly is Jaime going to kill his own children?

[Squire Dalbridge]

It was all Margery's doing, he knew from the start what Cersei is, and how to deal with her. Thanks to the help of beautiful Ms. Merryweather. I believe none of the accusations will be found true. She is above all younger and SMARTER queen.

[Lord Varys]

The High Septon is a rigid man, and he won't back down. But this does not mean that he can do what he wants. It's obvious to me that he very much despises the Lannisters and their incest brood upon the Iron Throne, and is working to establish his new cleansed Faith to take over Westeros step by step. But that does not mean that he has already the power base to do so, nor does it mean that the monarchy and nobility does not realize the threat he poses to their power.

And he does make bargains on occasion. He let Margaery and her cousins go, and he let even Cersei go.

In the Epilogue of ADwD it's indicated that only Ser Kevan prevented the Tyrells (i.e. both Mace and Randyll Tarly) from taking up arms against the Faith Militant. Neither Mace nor Randyll like the idea to go along with the demands of this peasant movement. And the only reason why Kevan did not take up arms against the Faith is that he 1. did not have the numbers with him in KL, and 2. knows that a bloodbath in the Great Sept will tarnish King Tommen's reputation once and for all. There are still pretenders out there, and with the Golden Company a new threat is at the very door of KL. It would be foolish right now to motivate the Faith and the more pious lords/knights to declare for another king.

But Mace and Tarly may not be as patient as Kevan. I'm sure the High Septon has no real interest in convicting Margaery right now, but with Kevan dead I'd not be surprised if Mace decided that there would be no trial. He suggested to Kevan that Tommen could declare Margaery's innocence by royal decree, and that may yet happen. If they do this, the High Septon won't forget, and may very well declare for King Aegon in the very new future.

[Timm Snow]

what would have been the point of tyrion.s trial if oberyn had prevailed? exactly: none

that's why you know something is going.to happen and it.won't be margy going back to normal.

[hardhome]

There was a what if thread at one point I remember inquiring what would happen if Cersei lost her trial. postulating that Margery would no longer be committing an actual crime if she were convicted of adultery because Tommen's legitimacy would be questioned. (we technically are unsure of her actual involvement in Jeoffry's Death)

[Sweetgirl205]

Why exactly is Jaime going to kill his own children?

I really don't think Jamie will. The prophecy says Cersie will be killed by the little brother after her children die. I think Cersie will panic and overreact, as usual, and assume she will be found guilty. She kills Tommlen and Myrcella in some sort of misguided motherly fit. Jamie kills her out of anger.

[Sweetgirl205]

Which queen was Varys referring to in ADwD when he killed Kevan to prevent him from undoing her work?

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Which queen was Varys referring to in ADwD when he killed Kevan to prevent him from undoing her work?

Cersei. It's not as if Margaery is involved at all in politics. She's just a pawn for Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly.

[silentwanderer]

The High Septon is a rigid man, and he won't back down. But this does not mean that he can do what he wants.

Good point, the Faith's priority is their souls, not their lives.

Should they consider Margaery "clensed" she would be let go, just as Cersei. And the charges of fornication have nothing to do with the charges for incest, or treason for that matter.

[Lord Varys]

It is actually rather obvious in the first Cersei chapter of ADwD that His High Holiness is offering Cersei a way out by making all her accusations into one big case. Her trial-by-combat is not gong to decide the validity of Osney Kettleblack's accusation that she commanded him to falsely accuse Margaery and murder the previous High Septon, but also the validity of the rumors that Robert Baratheon is not the father of Cersei's children.

Winning her trial may actually help King Tommen's cause. But that was before the Sparrows and the High Septon heard anything about Aegon. It has been obvious since AFfC that the Sparrows don't like or put any faith in King Tommen. The High Septon considers him the best of the current pretenders since Stannis is a heretic, and the Greyjoys are not much better. But the Sparrow Movement consists mainly of Smallfolk, and if the series has established anything about the common people then that they still worship the Targaryens (remember the old man in ACoK who claimed that King Aerys would not have allowed such things to happen).

So it's pretty easy to deduce that one of Aegon's first and most important allies will be the Faith of the Seven. Especially since prominent followers of the Faith (among them Ser Bonifer Hasty, who was in love with Princess Rhaella in his youth) are already in key positions. By declaring Aegon legitimate and the rightful King of the Rhoynar, Andals, and First Men, the High Septon will ensure that the Faith is going to keep and expand his new privileges and power under the new regime.

[A Man Has Said]

...The entire plot-line in King's Landing in AFFC/ADWD is centered around the growing power-struggle between the Lannisters and the Tyrells and Martin's storylines rarely just peter out without any conclusion. While Margaery's trial may seem innocuous, something tells me it will have major ramifications.

GRRM always has a tendency to lure his readers into a fall sense of security and then completely pull the rug out from under us: the fact that Margaery seems completely safe and Cersei almost screwed should be a hint that he's about to give us another unexpected twist: my pet theory has always been that Cersei is going to get away with her crimes (for now) thanks to Robert Strong, while Margaery is wrongfully executed due to fabricated evidence, placed there by Varys to destroy the Lannister/Tyrell alliance. If anyone's actually radical enough to execute Margaery, it would be the current High Septon.

I agree with you about the plotline revolving around the struggle between the Lannisters and the Tyrells, and there will be major ramifications. Most likely a change in rule.

I disagree with your assessment of GRRM's use of unexpected twists.

It's kind of the opposite a lot of times, and he mixes it up in a way that makes it VERY hard to predict what the outcome of any situation is going to be.

As an example, I would refer you to the beheading of Ned Stark.

It's quite predictable that someone who is imprisoned and charged with treason would end up executed over it.

Another author would have used an (un)expected twist (aka deus ex machina) to save Ned, so is it unexpected that he dies, or expected?

By trite literary conventions I would say unexpected. By GRRM's standards, NOTHING is very predictable.

OTOH Tyrion is saved through deus ex machina several times, so you just can't use that as a predictive measure.

Well the outcome might not be particularly predictable,at least not by the non forum goers.

Most here believe that Marge will actually loose the trail where as Cersei will win it.

It's not at all predictable. With Martin the question is always, "Should we expect the unexpected twist this time, or not?"

My prediction: Cersei sends in Robert Strong as her champion. The Faith sends in the Hound, who "died" in the riverlands and was reborn by the faith. They kill each other and Cersei is proclaimed innocent. But it doesn't matter because...

Margery is found guilty of fornication, though not on any of the charges Cersei accused her of. The Tyrells march on KL, having allied with Aegon and Dorne, and destroy all Lannister strength in the city and kill Cersei. Thoughts?

As it happens I just read the last Cersei POV chapter in "A Feast for Crows" and I was particularly struck by one line. It seems innocuous enough:

"You spoke with the queen," the High Septon said. (meaning Queen Margaery)

She resisted the urge to say, I am the queen. "I did."

This is backgrounded by several passages in "Feast" where someone refers to Margaery as "Lady Margaery" in Cersei's POVs, and Cersei always thinks to herself, "they know enough not to call her Queen in my presence."

One is also reminded of the line from the show where Margaery is asked if she wants to be a queen and she answers, "No, I want to be THE Queen."

So what occurred to me is this: Cersei is A queen, but she's not THE Queen - at least not under Westerosi laws and traditions.

The High Septon most certainly does not think of Cersei as THE Queen. That title is reserved for the wife of the True King after all. (and at this point the HS has given Tommen his blessing, so unless proved otherwise.. for now he IS the True King.)

This could of course lead to some (un)predictable twists with regard to who has the right to call on the King's Guard as their champion in a trial.

[Squire Dalbridge]

Cersei. It's not as if Margaery is involved at all in politics. She's just a pawn for Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly.

I disagree. I have a feeling Margaery is the most politically active of them all, and the mist wise of them too. Queen of Thorns The 2nd.

I see Lord Randyll first of all as a soldier, and Lord Mace as a ... Well, as a Lord Puffy Fish, The Great Oaf.

Just look at the way Margaery handles her husbands, good-mother and the smallfolk, all the charity work etc. And I also believe Lady Taena is working for Margaery, and she far outwits Cersei in that respect too.

I admit that the show has also has its effect for the picture I have of her. And I can't just now get more textual evidence. But I strongly feel this way.

[Dead Wolf]

The whole point of the margaery thing was to kill jon in the beginning. Cersei would have sent the queens lover to the Wall and have him kill Jon, and Cersei would execute margaery.

[Squire Dalbridge]

The whole point of the margaery thing was to kill jon in the beginning. Cersei would have sent the queens lover to the Wall and have him kill Jon, and Cersei would execute margaery.

No. It was more like 'hitting two flies with the same shot' ..or something like that, like we say in my home country. The Margeary hate started before Jon was even LC and was of course much bigger stress for Cersei than Jon. Maggy the Frog thing and all.

[Petyr Patter]

No. It was more like 'hitting two flies with the same shot' ..or something like that, like we say in my home country. The Margeary hate started before Jon was even LC and was of course much bigger stress for Cersei than Jon. Maggy the Frog thing and all.

Indeed, it was Qyburn's suggestion to send men to the wall, but in truth be there to kill Jon Snow and get a pardon on the rebound.

Cersei then decided the right pretext to send "criminals" to the Wall was to confess to treason, with Margaery.

She probably thought be combining two smaller plans into one bigger, more complicated plan she was being extra clever. Though, really, her whole plan (both parts) fell apart when the High Sparrow realized this incredibly scandalous sin this sell-sword was confessing to was a lie.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Actually I wouldn't be surprised for the twist to be that Margaery ends up condemned and Cersei walks, even though the former is innocent and the latter is guilty. I think something drastic is going to happen to shake the Tyrells, and Margaery's execution would do that. She is so obviously innocent to us and she seems to be so in the clear that I think something else might be at work there.

[Lady Winter Rose]

It would be nice if Margaery ends up convicted, while innocent. But I think it would be much more fun if George convince us Marg is guilty (with evidence Cersei couldn't find).

[Consigliere]

Based on evidence alone it would seem that the case against Margeary is very weak. In saying that we must remember that Varys is probably working behind the scenes to destabilize / break the Lannister/Tyrell alliance thereby opening the door for Aegon to take the IT. What better and easier way to end the Lannister/Tyrell alliance than to conspire to have Margeary found guilty at her trial and be executed or at the very least her marriage to Tommen anulled especially if Cercei's scheming were to come to light during the trial.