Is Fanfiction really that bad?

[KAH]

Sadly, I do think that Tyrion is a moderate case of Mary Sue.

Edit: Oh, apparently there's a male term for that: Marty Stu.

Do tell - is it that easy to get tagged with being Mary Sue? Jon Snow, sure - but Tyrion? Just for laughs, I entered info on a Mary Sue test, and Tyrion got 28 out of 258 Points. http://www.katfeete.net/writing/marysue.html (some of those options checked is guesswork on my part, admittedly)

[The Marquis de Leech]

Tyrion's claim to Sueism rests on two foundations: (1) he is one of the two authorial self-insert characters (the other being Samwell Tarly), and (2) his plot armour is so hard, it's practically diamond. However, he also has very real flaws (both physical and psychological) that have major impacts on his life, and more to the point, the world doesn't shift to accommodate him: other characters don't start falling over themselves to talk about how awesome he is.

So, no, Tyrion is not a Mary Sue/Marty Stu/Gary Stu.

[mormont]

Tyrion's claim to Sueism rests on two foundations: (1) he is one of the two authorial self-insert characters (the other being Samwell Tarly), and (2) his plot armour is so hard, it's practically diamond. However, he also has very real flaws (both physical and psychological) that have major impacts on his life, and more to the point, the world doesn't shift to accommodate him: other characters don't start falling over themselves to talk about how awesome he is.

So, no, Tyrion is not a Mary Sue/Marty Stu/Gary Stu.

I would take some issue with the idea that Tyrion and/or Sam are 'authorial self-insert characters': I'd set the bar for that higher than 'characters that have some similarity to the author' or 'characters the author cites as a favourite to write'. All characters have some part of the author in them: I'd assert that they only become self-insert characters through action, not identification. In other words, when their role in the story is to act as the author's avatar, doing what the author would themselves do (or wish to do) in the story. Neither Tyrion nor Sam do this. I'd say that in much fanfic, characters both invented and canonical take on this role for the writer, and one could argue that's one of the defining characteristics of fanfic.

[I know I know]

Tyrion's claim to Sueism rests on two foundations: (1) he is one of the two authorial self-insert characters (the other being Samwell Tarly), and (2) his plot armour is so hard, it's practically diamond. However, he also has very real flaws (both physical and psychological) that have major impacts on his life, and more to the point, the world doesn't shift to accommodate him: other characters don't start falling over themselves to talk about how awesome he is.

So, no, Tyrion is not a Mary Sue/Marty Stu/Gary Stu.

Moderate is a pretty important keyword, though.

The weakness of internet mary-sue tests is that everyone would Mary Sue in a different way. Some women would tend to have popular and pretty characters, manly men would tend to have badasses. Guys like GRRM would like to, as GRRM himself said it, be able to come up with all the lines that you wish you could come up with, in the moment you needed them, rather than in bed 8 hours later.

And that's Tyrion.

Tyrion gets by with his charm and wit in unlikely situations. His commandeering of Shagga and co. springs to mind as an example - they chose to trust him, and detoured their entire band for days on the word and whim of an impoverished dwarf *claiming* to be super-wealthy, to save his own life. In a a highwayman scenario as I would imagine it, morelike he'd be disbelieved, and squished like a bug. But they believe him, and become his faithful retainers, acquired by him through nothing but his own cunning, and that works much to the glory of Tyrion. This, after he does somersaults from 7 feet in the air, lands unscathed on his hands, marauds through hardened warriors in battle, all the while sparing Sansas virginity - the point is precisely that we (the viewers) understand how awesome he is, and how much recognition he deserves, but does not get... in the story. In reality, I think it's safe to say that a part of GRRM - who has made very explicit that he identifies with Tyrion, as well as Sam - feasts a bit on the admiration and praise the character gets from the readers.

I've seen an analogy to "Ayla", the protagonist of Clan of the Cave Bear. For most of the story, she's looked down upon by everyone in the story. But we, as the viewers, understand that they are wrong, and how much she deserves praise. Ayla is an infamous Mary Sue.

Tyrion really isn't a bad case at all, though. TBH, I don't think Jon Snow is a Sue either - hardly any of GRRM's characters are even moderately so. I'd just have to choose Tyrion, if I had to choose one. But even Tyrion is a very moderate and mild case.

[Lyanna Stark]

Do tell - is it that easy to get tagged with being Mary Sue? Jon Snow, sure - but Tyrion? Just for laughs, I entered info on a Mary Sue test, and Tyrion got 28 out of 258 Points. http://www.katfeete....ng/marysue.html (some of those options checked is guesswork on my part, admittedly)

He got 42 in my test (still nowhere near a MarySue), but I think there are two reasons people throw MarySue or GaryStu at Tyrion:

a. Readers tend to absolve Tyrion of any guilt and/or responsibility for his actions because he has Suffered and has been Wronged (and because Tyrion is himself really good at justifying his actions and lamenting his Misfortunes, often via Navelgazing. Instead of taking this as one of Tyrion's traits it is taken as Truth ™ ).

b. The TV series, where Tyrion is hugely whitewashed to the point of being another character.

That still doesn't make him one tho, and I don't think any of the ASOIAF characters are anywhere near a MarySue or GaryStu character. It just makes me wonder if people have actually read fics etc with real self inserts.

But then people like throwing accusations like "trope", "MarySue", "stereotype" around without being the least familiar with the terminology.

[KAH]

Moderate is a pretty important keyword, though.

Isn't part of the point of the Mary Sue impairment the deviation from what may be considered moderate?

[I know I know]

Isn't part of the point of the Mary Sue impairment the deviation from what may be considered moderate?

If you prefer, you can define it binarily.

I think it's pretty intuitive that we're talking about a spectrum.

[Werthead]

Tyrion is a Gary Stu only if the definition of Gary Stu has changed to 'whoremonging rapist (albeit a reluctant one, which doesn't really help the situation)'. On the other hand, someone like Richard Rahl is very, very clearly a Gary Stu.

(and I guess the problem comes when by a chance of luck the unlikely event arises where the fanfic hits the jackpot with the future of a character, which may lead into some legal headaches?)

Yes. A Babylon 5 fan wrote up an idea he had for an episode in which a mindwiped person discovers they were a serial killer in their former life. He did this on a forum that showrunner/writer J. Michael Straczynski frequented. When JMS saw the post he had to abandon a script he was actually writing with that idea in it. He had to get the other person to sign a legal disclaimer before he could resume writing it (for the following season).

That problem doesn't come up too often though, as the fanfic writer would have to prove that the author actually saw the post, which is difficult, and then prove they didn't have the idea already, which is almost impossible.

[lessthanluke]

The Methods of Rationality is very good, I've also read some other good HP fanfiction after that but it's too much effort to wade through the crap really.

[KAH]

If you prefer, you can define it binarily.

I think it's pretty intuitive that we're talking about a spectrum.

Heh, intuitive. As a concept, I think it's fairly straight forward to define it binarily - either the character is a Mary Sue, or it is not. The fact that people may disagree exactly where the line should be drawn, does not abolish the binarity (is that a Word?) of the concept. Now, if you were talking about the accumulation of the various traits that decides whether a character will be considered a Mary Sue or not, then you'd have a point.

[Sci-2]

The Methods of Rationality is very good, I've also read some other good HP fanfiction after that but it's too much effort to wade through the crap really.

I have a soft spot for Harry Potter and the Wastelands of Time but I never went back.

There was sexy stuff that felt too much like forced self-insert, which is why as a straight guy I stick to homoerotica [in my HP fan-fics] to avoid that embarrassment.

[lessthanluke]

I have a soft spot for Harry Potter and the Wastelands of Time but I never went back.

There was sexy stuff that felt too much like forced self-insert, which is why as a straight guy I stick to homoerotica [in my HP fan-fics] to avoid that embarrassment.

Yeah wastelands was decent. I didn't even start the sequel. Any other recs feel free to through them at me.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

I read few chapters of tWoT but Harry Potter was to much OOC for me to stand. Pity, cose idea of going there and back again in time, was quite interesting.

Anyway, on the occassion of me reading Goodkind threads I also recalled "This Means War", where Harry was turned into classical, invincible and merciless Ayn Rand hero, although much better written than SoT.

[Jerol]

Speaking of Eragon, if Paolini had stuck to writing Star Wars and LOTR fanfic, rather than filing off the serial numbers and publishing it, the world would be a better place.

That.Nails.It.

My wife reads a substantial amount of slash and has on many occasions pressed a story on me, despite the fact that I despise violations of canon. Her standards are fairly high but still, most of what I have read is proof that Sturgeon's Law lives and breathes. But there have been a few of her fave authors that I wish would create their own world and get their stuff out there, because there was some genuine talent lurking beneath all the grunting and spurting and buttsecks.

Some years ago I read a critique of terrible story about some girl who hangs with Legolas on the beach. I still laugh when I think about this.

Tyrion, Hermoine Grainger, Corwin of Amber - these are not Mary Sues. Sure they have some of the author in them but these characters are real, rounded, with faults and fuckups galore. Robert Langdon and Richard Rahl - those are the epitome of badly written authorial fantasies.

[Darth Richard]

Hehe, I read some of her fanfic stuff before she was published but only read a few chapters since I found it utterly dull (it was a full on Draco Malfoy wank if I remember correctly). However, Cassandra Claire did a similar thing to "Fifty Shades of Grey", she found a niche that she could exploit. Basically lots of people read Harry Potter, a subset read Cassanda Claire's fanfic and it was enough that she gained some traction and eventually got published. However, I remember at the time she was reviled by the spork sites like Deleterius and there was Proper Fan Drama all around.

I brought the popcorn, watched a bit from the sidelines but never really got into it. Besides, I doubt Ms Claire is as offensive as "50 Shades...", if I remember correctly, it was more rather dull and pretty stereotypical and reductive. I mean, it's what? 10 years ago? Time flies, water under the bridge, etc.

Besides, with Dan Brown, Eragon and 50 Shades, I feel Cassandra Claire is definitely a Minor Offence. :lol:

EDIT: I do blame her for making the Draco in leather pants trope popular though.

My beef with her is her rampant and blatant plagiarism of other works, to the point where it became, HUGE INTERNET DRAMA (bum bum bum). There's also an interesting article, I think on goodreads, which compares her original draco fic to her first published novel, where you can see that all she changed for a lot of passages were the names, ala 50 shades. She also happens to have a friend who is a lawsuit happy lawyer. The whole thing just makes me want to scream.

[Darth Richard]

That's a pretty arbitrary definition, in that it has nothing to do with the content of the story or its relationship to the source material. Why should Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality be classed as fanfic, but not Wicked, just because Baum's books are a few decades older than Rowling's? Does HPMoR suddenly cease to be fanfic in however many decades when Rowling's copyright expires and it becomes legal to publish it?

Well yes, thats hwy I said that said definition was just how I look at it personally.

[felice]

Well yes, thats hwy I said that said definition was just how I look at it personally.

I'm just suggesting you might consider re-evaluating how you look at it. Your definition is practically useful, but not critically useful, and this is a critical thread.

[Darth Richard]

Ha, well, I would argue against any thread here lately being critical, but I see your point.

[thistlepong]

While individual examples of fanfic might be subjectively displeasing, I don't necessarily think the central question is one of quality. I think it's more about literacy, media literacy, and cultural literacy. We have a right to respond and reinterpret the central stories our cultures tell. We have a responsibility as citizens to learn those stories and how to tell them. Fan fiction is arguably more important than fiction itself in the sense that one is a navigation and understanding of one's environment and the other is just art.

I grabbed some bits from Convergence Culture by Henry Jenkins. This is from a quick glance, mind. I figured since DR lamented the lack of critical ngagement I might try to jump start some.

From the perspective of the consumer, on the other hand, [censorship and property rights] start to blur since both place restrictions on our ability to fully engage with a fantasy that has taken on a central place in our culture.

...

[Fan fiction is] at heart a struggle over what rights we have to read and write about core cultural myths—that is, a struggle over literacy. Here, literacy is understood to include not simply what we can do with printed matter but also what we can do with media. Just as we would not traditionally assume that someone is literate if they can read but not write, we should not assume that someone possesses media literacy if they can consume but not express themselves.

...

We may also see the current struggle over literacy as having the effect of determining who has the right to participate in our culture and on what terms.

We know almost unreservedly as readers that our experience of the work is a conversation with the creator. We have threads upon threads here in lit and many more about GRRM's books that are only a step removed from fan fiction. We fill in the gaps in the text and attempt to anticipate what's to some. We examine and analyze the motives within and without the text.

The question is whether we want this conversation to be inherently one sided. I don't. That model doesn't benefit creation in any field.

[Le Cygne]

I've tried to read fanfic before (only romantic, I didn't know they wrote anything else) but can never make it through a full one.