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Stubby

R+L=J v. 56

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Carry on.

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Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?

Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practised in centuries, is it still even legal?

The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the KG at ToJ on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in lineany time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the KG might have stayed at ToJ, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?

Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread 22a)

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

R+L=J v. 41 (thread forty-one)

R+L=J v.42 (thread forty-two)

R+L=J v. 43 (thread forty-three)

R+L=J v.44 (thread forty-four)

R+L=J v.45 (thread forty-five)

R+L=J v.46 (thread forty-six)

R+L=J v.47 (thread forty-seven)

R+L=J v. 48 (thread forty-eight)

R+L=J v.49 (thread forty-nine)

R+L=J v. 50 (thread fifty)

R+L=J v.51 (thread fifty-one)

R+L=J v.52 (thread fifty-two)

R+L=J v.53 (thread fifty-three)

R+L=J v.54 (thread fifty=four)

R+L=J v.55 (thread fifty-five)

(I tried to "unbold" the link to 54 & couldn't.)

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OK, I will use this 56th edition to discuss some of my points regarding this theory, since I haven't been very much here... I really want to congratulate some of the regulars here that make this thread so unique...

As for the beginning, I will start with my respond to Ygrain's post from last thread

Neds and Robert's conversation always seemed such juxtapositioned in order to make such deliberate differentiation between Ned's and Robert's version. This is one of the earliest text indicators that what Robert knows about Lyanna is so little, and that Ned is indeed hiding something.

Also, I would like to add piece of evidence I have found during my research for my Wolf project, that I think fully support this theory:

With the excessive knowledge of wolves, GRRM gave us albino wolf. Not white wolf, but albino. The obvious reason, as many stated before is refference to Bloodraven. But I have gone in another direction. For me, the fact that there is no albino wolves in the nature (there are white wolves - with blue eyes, but not albino with red eyes), clearly indicates that unlike his siblings, Ghost is something more than common wolf, or in this case direwolf. Clearly suggesting that there is something, to say extra regarding Ghost, Martin differentiates him from others. That of course works if it is planned to differentiate Jon from his apparent siblings.

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Just to see what people think, I was discussing who knows about R+L=J with another poster (I won't mention who) and they kept saying how if some the Daynes and Wylla knew then it would be bad writing from GRRM. And I kept saying Lyanna was at the Tower of Joy for about a year and someone other than the KG and Rhaegar must have known, and that the Daynes might have helped them out with supplies and supplied a midwife for Lyanna, Wylla.

The they kept why would Ned tell the Daynes about Lyanna and Jon, when I kept saying they probably knew about R+L before Ned.

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Just to see what people think, I was discussing who knows about R+L=J with another poster (I won't mention who) and they kept saying how if some the Daynes and Wylla knew then it would be bad writing from GRRM. And I kept saying Lyanna was at the Tower of Joy for about a year and someone other than the KG and Rhaegar must have known, and that the Daynes might have helped them out with supplies and supplied a midwife for Lyanna, Wylla.

The they kept why would Ned tell the Daynes about Lyanna and Jon, when I kept saying they probably knew about R+L before Ned.

I was always wondered why Ned felt so compelled to go to Starfall and surrender Ashara Arthur's sword personally. He must have known he woukdn't be greeted warmly. Of course, if Wylla was there, in ToJ, and we know someone was with Howland when they found Ned with Lyanna, she could have redirected him and Howland to Starfall, and Ashara. This would give some time to create a cover story for Jon, even to Ned spent some time with Wylla so the rumor about pregnancy and Wylla giving birth to a boy would be valid. And yes, I always assumed Daynes knew about R+L long before Ned. After all, Arthur must have been with Rhaegar when Lyanna was kidnapped/run away.

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I was always wondered why Ned felt so compelled to go to Starfall and surrender Ashara Arthur's sword personally. He must have known he woukdn't be greeted warmly. Of course, if Wylla was there, in ToJ, and we know someone was with Howland when they found Ned with Lyanna, she could have redirected him and Howland to Starfall, and Ashara. This would give some time to create a cover story for Jon, even to Ned spent some time with Wylla so the rumor about pregnancy and Wylla giving birth to a boy would be valid. And yes, I always assumed Daynes knew about R+L long before Ned. After all, Arthur must have been with Rhaegar when Lyanna was kidnapped/run away.

Maybe Wylla went with Ned to Starfall to vouch for Ned and to stop the, killing him.

Also here's where one of those Ser Arthur is alive theory comes in and he went with Ned to Starfall and so they didn't kill Ned for killing Ser Arthur because he want dead...

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Maybe Wylla went with Ned to Starfall to vouch for Ned and to stop the, killing him.

Also here's where one of those Ser Arthur is alive theory comes in and he went with Ned to Starfall and so they didn't kill Ned for killing Ser Arthur because he want dead...

Pure crackpot: Maybe Wylla was sent by Ashara to KL-SE to tell Ned where Lyanna is, kinowing that they will search for her. Wylla tells Ned about Lyanna having a child, thus Ned decides to go with small party. The KGs know Ned was coming ("KG does not flee"), and then of course happens what happens. they kill each other, leaving Ned and Howland alive. Ned goes to Lyanna, where she tells him everything, and Wylla knowing how dangerous situation is, sends Ned to Starfall to make arrangements with Ashara. Ashara and Ned make entire story up about Ned's bastard, because Wylla was after all, some time with him. Ned goes to KL to make peace with Robert, and Ashara, procuring that no one would ever find out what happened killed herself. Of course, Ashara might have been blaming herself for Arthur's death. Of course, Wylla remains alive for no one bothers with servants, and her death would bring more attention.

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Also, I would like to add piece of evidence I have found during my research for my Wolf project, that I think fully support this theory:

With the excessive knowledge of wolves, GRRM gave us albino wolf. Not white wolf, but albino. The obvious reason, as many stated before is refference to Bloodraven. But I have gone in another direction. For me, the fact that there is no albino wolves in the nature (there are white wolves - with blue eyes, but not albino with red eyes), clearly indicates that unlike his siblings, Ghost is something more than common wolf, or in this case direwolf. Clearly suggesting that there is something, to say extra regarding Ghost, Martin differentiates him from others. That of course works if it is planned to differentiate Jon from his apparent siblings.

I think there's a lot to be said about Ghost's significance in Jon's heritage.

I always thought a big clue was that Jon and Ghost was the first warging experience we ever read. When Jon "hears" him barking but none of the others do and it is later revealed that Ghost is mute, the only way this can be explained is with warging. So there was this experience without Jon ever laying eyes on him (on the contrary it made sure he found him) and the only explanation I can think of is that Ghost truly was meant for Jon.

I think it's also significant that we get Summer's viewpoint via Bran and his thoughts on the rest of the "pack". He specifically talks about his brothers and sisters and refers to Ghost as "the other one". Now, I don't think wolves care so much about whose daddy is who, they would still see the others as siblings, unless they didn't even have one parent in common (aka coming from a different "pack"). So if Summer doesn't see Ghost as being a sibling, I think it's at least worth considering that means Jon isn't a sibling to the others, instead, in this case, a cousin.

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From the previous thread:

Promises and lies told to keep them. But Lyanna was at the edge of death when she got Eddard to make those promises and also in a fever. Did she have the time or the concentration or the energy left to do anything more than get Eddard to promise to bury her in Winterfell and to protect her son by claiming the infant as his own bastard child? Did she even have time or energy to say when or whether she wanted her son told of his parentage?

Well, we don't know how much time Ned spent with her before she made him promise. He could have been by her side for hours.



"His son was Rickard Stark, not my father’s father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter."

"They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns."

The crannogmen have the blood of CotF and so do the Starks! I can't believe I have missed this! The Children's cave is full of their bones, and of the essences of their ancestors. The Stark crypts are full of...-----"

Hm.... The Singers of the Song of Earth seem too much unlike either the Crannogmen or the Starks for any such union to produce viable offspring. The Marsh King, was, I assume, human, and probably controlled the area around Greywater, and had the crannogmen as his subjects. If he really was a king this is pre-conquest and maybe pre Andal. Or this may all be a jumble of stories Old Nan had told Bran.

GRRM has explicitely said that the Westerosi genetics doesn't work like in RL, therefore interspecies breeding is not entirely out of question. The crannogmen are notably smaller than the rest of the Westerosi population, are the only ones to use some sort of natural magic which looks like CotF, and live in an area that is specifically listed as CotF habitat. Coincidence? I don't think so.

I'm not suggesting that the Marsh king was necessarily CotF but that the whole population of crannogmen are descended from CotF, and thus the CotF blood got into the Stark lineage.

- Which brings us to the question which has been asked many times: why Lyanna Stark? Why not any other northern girl descended from the First Men? - It would have been her CotF heritage that made her unique.

One has to wonder, though, what CotF have to do with Ice, and who/what the Fire part in the Targaryen blood was, as well as who the fire counterpart of the Others is/are.



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I think there's a lot to be said about Ghost's significance in Jon's heritage.

I always thought a big clue was that Jon and Ghost was the first warging experience we ever read. When Jon "hears" him barking but none of the others do and it is later revealed that Ghost is mute, the only way this can be explained is with warging. So there was this experience without Jon ever laying eyes on him (on the contrary it made sure he found him) and the only explanation I can think of is that Ghost truly was meant for Jon.

I think it's also significant that we get Summer's viewpoint via Bran and his thoughts on the rest of the "pack". He specifically talks about his brothers and sisters and refers to Ghost as "the other one". Now, I don't think wolves care so much about whose daddy is who, they would still see the others as siblings, unless they didn't even have one parent in common (aka coming from a different "pack"). So if Summer doesn't see Ghost as being a sibling, I think it's at least worth considering that means Jon isn't a sibling to the others, instead, in this case, a cousin.

A good catch, I don't think I've seen this pointed out.

Ghost is a very peculiar creature. He finds the dead wights, he finds the dragonglass cache at the Fist... but seems to trust Mel, or is controlled by her. Curiouser and curiouser.

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A good catch, I don't think I've seen this pointed out.

Ghost is a very peculiar creature. He finds the dead wights, he finds the dragonglass cache at the Fist... but seems to trust Mel, or is controlled by her. Curiouser and curiouser.

As for Mel, I have to say I was always intruiged by it. We know that Jon, as son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, would be union of ice and fire. Element of ice, through Stark bloodline and First Men magic uis represented through Ghost. Now, through that same connection Ghost learnt to recognize his master, or soulmate, so to speak, in Jon, sensing both ice and fire. So, when Mel touches him, he basically loses in fire. He recognizes it as something similar, but it's not Jon. It's another fire, and that's why his eyes are of stranger when he looks at Jon.

Of course, who was able to follow my thoughts, will understood the previous paragraph... :)

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A good catch, I don't think I've seen this pointed out.

Ghost is a very peculiar creature. He finds the dead wights, he finds the dragonglass cache at the Fist... but seems to trust Mel, or is controlled by her. Curiouser and curiouser.

As for Mel, I have to say I was always intruiged by it. We know that Jon, as son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, would be union of ice and fire. Element of ice, through Stark bloodline and First Men magic uis represented through Ghost. Now, through that same connection Ghost learnt to recognize his master, or soulmate, so to speak, in Jon, sensing both ice and fire. So, when Mel touches him, he basically loses in fire. He recognizes it as something similar, but it's not Jon. It's another fire, and that's why his eyes are of stranger when he looks at Jon.

Of course, who was able to follow my thoughts, will understood the previous paragraph... :)

I almost wonder if this could be tied into the theory that Stannis Lives talked about in the previous thread? The one about Mel sacrificing Shireen to heal/resurrect Jon.

If he knows she's going to be instrumental in saving Jon, that could explain why he's cool with her.

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I almost wonder if this could be tied into the theory that Stannis Lives talked about in the previous thread? The one about Mel sacrificing Shireen to heal/resurrect Jon.

If he knows she's going to be instrumental in saving Jon, that could explain why he's cool with her.

I doubt Mel will have anything in resurrecting Jon. I also don;t see Ghost as being cool with her, it's more of a unknown teritory for him. He smelled something familiar, and that's why he tolerates her.

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"Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened." (Bran in ACOK)

Will similar conditions be required for Jon to access his warging ability? Unconscsiousness was not enough for Bran, will it suffice for Bran? Or is it some connection with the ground / being underground that might play a role?

I almost wonder if this could be tied into the theory that Stannis Lives talked about in the previous thread? The one about Mel sacrificing Shireen to heal/resurrect Jon.

If he knows she's going to be instrumental in saving Jon, that could explain why he's cool with her.

Creepy... but possible. Though, I have a feeling that Ghost's behaviour was a hint at something sinister going on there.

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“It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin.”

So skinchanging is a gift/skill from CotF?

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“It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin.”

So skinchanging is a gift/skill from CotF?

Perhaps it priginates, but it had to be passed to the bloodline of First Men, otherwise how would we explain that the gift is only in the bloodline of First Men, Blackwoods and Starks?

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Which is why I suggested some merging between CotF and First Men.

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Perhaps it priginates, but it had to be passed to the bloodline of First Men, otherwise how would we explain that the gift is only in the bloodline of First Men, Blackwoods and Starks?

Well, the thing that certianly connects CotF and First Men is the Old Gods worship, so I think a good preliminary assumption to take is that Old Gods worship may lead to these skinchanging skills. We don't know of any Hightower, Dayne or Bracken wargs either, although they are First Men too.

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Somehow I doubt anyone in those families are going to be advertising the fact that they are capable of something as freakish and non Faith of the Sevenish as Warg.

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Somehow I doubt anyone in those families are going to be advertising the fact that they are capable of something as freakish and non Faith of the Sevenish as Warg.

Plus, without the right conditions and training, they might even not be aware of it.

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