R+L=J v. 56

[Greymoon]

I always thought that some bloodlines are magical and others aren't. What do we know about Northmen? They claim to be descended from the First Men, but how 'diluted' is their blood, truly?

Wildlings seem both closer to the old gods and to the First Men, and interestingly enough, Old Nan used to tell Bran that wargs and skinchangers existed only beyond the wall.

And as far as we know, that's practically true. Wildlings are very familiar with Skinchangers. Westerosis, especially in the south, don't believe such a thing exists.So obviously, in Westeros proper, the gift has disappeared...The Faith might have something to do with it, the Citadel after all, does not seem pleased about the sudden reappearance of dragons/magic. Might be, it's the blood of the Andals that's just not magical at all.

The Starks were obviously Skinchangers in the past, the new generation is as well, the Mormonts might have been etc etc...Possibly, marriage with the Andals has dimmed the blood of the First Men, and so, even in the north, the gift has become extremely rare.

But not for the Starks. Same with the Targaryens, the ancient blood of Valyria seems magical, and if they needed to preserve this 'power'/the purity of their blood, the endogamous marriage custom makes a lot of sense.

So, basically, I don't think that only the First Men or the Children, or Crannogmen had warg and green seeing abilities...Targs have been known to act rashly because of some 'prophetic dreams'- Dany had a few of that, before her dragons were born. Also, Bloodraven has Valyrian blood. Aegon and his sisters must also have known some type of magic to control dragons. Were they skinchangers, perhaps?

Duality is a big theme in asoiaf. Bran in my opinion is meant to succeed Bloodraven. Which suggest that in spite of their different heritage, they have been gifted with the same abilities...Thus...uhm Valyrian magic = First Men magic? Anyhow. :dunno: completely crackpot???

So why Lyanna Stark? It's possible the answer lies within her blood, or maybe Rhaegar knew, somehow, that it must be her...or he was simply in love ?

[Stannis Lives]

I almost wonder if this could be tied into the theory that Stannis Lives talked about in the previous thread? The one about Mel sacrificing Shireen to heal/resurrect Jon.

If he knows she's going to be instrumental in saving Jon, that could explain why he's cool with her.

I doubt Mel will have anything in resurrecting Jon. I also don;t see Ghost as being cool with her, it's more of a unknown teritory for him. He smelled something familiar, and that's why he tolerates her.

"Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened." (Bran in ACOK)

Will similar conditions be required for Jon to access his warging ability? Unconscsiousness was not enough for Bran, will it suffice for Bran? Or is it some connection with the ground / being underground that might play a role?

Creepy... but possible. Though, I have a feeling that Ghost's behaviour was a hint at something sinister going on there.

Mladen, its not resurrection we were discussing. We had a pretty entertaining and enlightening discussion on the topic in its own thread. Posting if you want to take a look rather than repeat.

Also have to say, I'm still really bothered by the fact that the Dornish were fine with Rhaegars actions.

1. He was married to the dornish princess

2. The half dornish children were heir to the IT

3. He ran away with the sister and fiance of the principle players of Roberts rebellion leading to the death of Elia and the children

4. He ran away to DORNE with the woman with whom he disrespected Elia

5. They were assisted by starfall and ADs wet nurse

6. They were guarded by a dornishman

7. In the dornish POVs, there is no animosity towards rhaegar. In fact its the opposite. They were still targ loyalists and were cutting secret pacts

We are missing something here IMO. Dorne had to be in cahoots with whatever rhaegar did and with whatever happened at TOJ.

[FrozenFire3]

We are missing something here IMO. Dorne had to be in cahoots with whatever rhaegar did and with whatever happened at TOJ.

:agree: And I share Lady Gwynhyfvar's suspicions, Elia is the key to unravel R+L three P's tangle: politics, passion, prophecy.

[Jory Cassel]

The Starks were obviously Skinchangers in the past, the new generation is as well, the Mormonts might have been etc etc...Possibly, marriage with the Andals has dimmed the blood of the First Men, and so, even in the north, the gift has become extremely rare.

The Starks ruling in the north had a custom of intermarrying with their own bannermen, of which all - except for the Manderlys - had First Men blood, and the North has never been taken by the Andals by force as the rest of Westeros. Besides, until Lord Rickard started groping south by marrying his children to Tully and Baratheon, Starks were not known to mingle with Southerners.

It's relatively safe to say that First Men blood is relatively undiluted in Starks and all Northmen in general.

We are missing something here IMO. Dorne had to be in cahoots with whatever rhaegar did and with whatever happened at TOJ.

Possibly, yes.

Maybe it is just a combination of the greater tolerance of affairs and paramours in Dorne in combination with the slight on Elia's (and dorne's) honor vanishing in contrast with what was done to her on Tywin's orders, though.

[Maester Bates]

Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons

The rocks had scraped her hands raw. They are better than they were, though, she decided as she picked at a broken blister. Her skin was pink and tender, and a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns were healing.

Martin, George R.R. (2011-07-12). A Dance with Dragons: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Five (p. 929). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Minor point, but I don't believe Dany was burned by the fire pit incident. I believe the "burns" he refers to are abrasions from the fall she took, not from the actual fire. I still believe that Dany specifically is invulnerable to fire, even if her Targaryen blood in and of itself does not fully explain it.

This might be more evidence of Dany = AA? Not sure.

[King of Winters]

Which is why I suggested some merging between CotF and First Men.

I think the Stark have COTF blood in them, but they didn't merge with the Children themselves. I think that the Crannogmen did, since they're small, and when the King in the North married the defeated Marsh King's daughter, the COTF blood went into the Stark bloodline.

[Jory Cassel]

I think the Stark have COTF blood in them, but they didn't merge with the Children themselves. I think that the Crannogmen did, since they're small, and when the King in the North married the defeated Marsh King's daughter, the COTF blood went into the Stark bloodline.

Did the Crannogmen merge with the CotF because they are small, or are they small because they merged with the CotF? ;)

[King of Winters]

Did the Crannogmen merge with the CotF because they are small, or are they small because they merged with the CotF? ;)

One of life's biggest questions.

Like which came first, the chicken or the egg? :P

[Ghost's Shadow]

@ Greymoon:

Targaryens are not wargs. Warging is a talent that's only seen in those who have the blood of the First Men.

Bloodraven is a product of a Targ (Aegon IV) and blood of the First Men (Blackwood woman). That's where he probably gets his warging/skinchanging/greenseeing talents from. If Jon is indeed a product of the Targ and Stark bloodline, he's got great potential, though he himself is not keen on training his abilities.

As for the connection the Targs have with their dragons, there's a possibility that the dragonbinding horn kind of imitates the warg/skinchanger bond. Dany has a good connection with Drogon so she can ride him, but without magic binding him to her, can we for sure know that he won't go up against her if he's not in the mood to listen to her? How long is that whip going to work on him? Viserion and Rhaegal might estrange more and more from her, because the children are getting bigger and mommy locks them up now.

Why Lyanna Stark? It could be that Rhaegar was intrigued by her, but what drove him to take her? Was it just the same intrigue, or was he pushed that way because of a more supernatural influence through whispering in his ear/mind? (I remember reading a thread once on how it might have seemed that Arya was pushed into some directions sometimes? Maybe a voice telling her what to do/where to go? Don't remember the examples but if it's true then perhaps Rhaegar was whispered to as well and that's what made him go for Lyanna, because even he must have known that it was at the very least a dangerous thing to do.)

[Stannis Lives]

Possibly, yes.

Maybe it is just a combination of the greater tolerance of affairs and paramours in Dorne in combination with the slight on Elia's (and dorne's) honor vanishing in contrast with what was done to her on Tywin's orders, though.

Even from a political perspective it seems insane for Dorne to be ok with the idea of a contender to Aegons crown. It's like a blackfyre situation all over again. How could they possibly assist and support a non-dornish contender for the crown? Robert had rhaegars children killed and cersei had Roberts BASTARDS killed. But yet the dornish helped create a controversy?

In Jaimes POV from ACoK, he explains to brienne what happened and how rhaegar rallied the dornish armies while aerys sent his wife and children to dragonstone but kept Elia and aegon close as hostages to ensure Dornes allegiance. However, Aerys, Elia, her kids, Rhaegar are all dead and yet Dorne continued to harbor rhaegars new stark wife and her child? They should have killed lyanna and Jon. Years later, they should still harbor a hatred for rhaegar for what he did but instead they are conspiring with the targs and speaking of secret pacts.

I have to believe that Dorne was involved with Rhaegar in some plot to overthrow Aerys (who clearly didn't know anything) and fulfill the prophecy. There is more than meets the eye here with Dorne and Rhaegar and Jon and Aegon, Starfall, Arthur and Ashara Dayne etc Dornes actions are completely inconsistent as well as inconsistent with Jaimes perception of Dornes allegiance and Aerys need for hostages.

[Ygrain]

Minor point, but I don't believe Dany was burned by the fire pit incident. I believe the "burns" he refers to are abrasions from the fall she took, not from the actual fire. I still believe that Dany specifically is invulnerable to fire, even if her Targaryen blood in and of itself does not fully explain it.

This might be more evidence of Dany = AA? Not sure.

Sorry but you don't get blisters from falling on a rocky terrain. The burns which she has on her hand are most likely from the spear which she removed from Drogon's neck and which was heated from his inner fire.

As for the supposed Targaryen fire immunity, I suggest that you check the reference guide in the second post of this thread.

[zaki]

Jon is not son of Rhaegar. It seems everybody forgets one simple and strong magic that is present from the start of the series. The seed is strong.

[Greymoon]

@ Greymoon:

Targaryens are not wargs. [...]

Bloodraven is a product of a Targ (Aegon IV) and blood of the First Men (Blackwood woman).

Ok, I'd forgotten about Bloodraven...but I'm not sure we can say that Targaryens are not wargs. We don't know much about the powers the dragon lords had/didn't have, no? I haven't read any other books but asoif, and so I might be missing some important information here, but from the books alone, I don't think we could conclude that... ?

Even from a political perspective it seems insane for Dorne to be ok with the idea of a contender to Aegons crown. It's like a blackfyre situation all over again. How could they possibly assist and support a non-dornish contender for the crown? Robert had rhaegars children killed and cersei had Roberts BASTARDS killed. But yet the dornish helped create a controversy?

I have to believe that Dorne was involved with Rhaegar in some plot to overthrow Aerys (who clearly didn't know anything) and fulfill the prophecy. There is more than meets the eye here with Dorne and Rhaegar and Jon and Aegon, Starfall, Arthur and Ashara Dayne etc Dornes actions are completely inconsistent as well as inconsistent with Jaimes perception of Dornes allegiance and Aerys need for hostages.

I always thought that Elia had an affair. Her being unable to provide any more children and ill would be a good enough reason to set her aside or take a second wife, but-

It doesn't sit well with me. Would Rhaegar do that? I don't know... As for Dorne, I don't think they knew what was going on. It's possible that Rhaegar meant to speak to Doran in person, explain the situation to him, but never actually did because the war broke out.

We also know that Dornish people are not so prickly as most Westerosis. Arianne is a good example, Oberyn Martell naturally too.

It’s also possible that Elia and Rhaegar had an agreement. Their marriage was arranged; Rhaegar cared for her, but by all accounts didn't love her. The same could have been true for Elia. Would Doran Martell be angry if his own sister desired to be freed of her vows? Or agreed to share her husband?

I imagine that Elia had plenty of reasons for not wanting to stay in Kingslanding. It's a horrible place, even in Robert's time...imagine just how horrible court must have been with Aerys present...and her being a foreigner and bed ridden would just have made it worse, thus given her a motive for an eventual divorce, or polygamous marriage. With Lyanna as a second wife, Elia might have been able to leave kingslanding and live somewhere else. Dragonstone?

I also think that if Rhaegar was going to set Elia aside, then, he probably didn't have the time, or, again, because of the war, was forced to change his plans. He couldn't have risked losing Dorne at such a critical time.

So, if we suppose that the plan was to set Elia aside (not saying that's what it was...), Rhaegar most probably didn't do it, which would make Jon a bastard, unless legitimized in some kind of decree. It's been theorized that only a Kind could legitimize a bastard, but might it not be that Rhaegar's word "I fathered this child, he is my blood and heir after Aegon" or whatever, would have been sufficient?

I think this has all been mentioned before, but anyway...

And...I agree that Dany is not immune to fire. A life for a life, that's what she thought when she walke into the fire and survived. She burned the red woman alive and practically sacrificed Drogo and her own son for the Dragons...

[Jory Cassel]

Even from a political perspective it seems insane for Dorne to be ok with the idea of a contender to Aegons crown. It's like a blackfyre situation all over again. How could they possibly assist and support a non-dornish contender for the crown? Robert had rhaegars children killed and cersei had Roberts BASTARDS killed. But yet the dornish helped create a controversy?

In Jaimes POV from ACoK, he explains to brienne what happened and how rhaegar rallied the dornish armies while aerys sent his wife and children to dragonstone but kept Elia and aegon close as hostages to ensure Dornes allegiance. However, Aerys, Elia, her kids, Rhaegar are all dead and yet Dorne continued to harbor rhaegars new stark wife and her child? They should have killed lyanna and Jon. Years later, they should still harbor a hatred for rhaegar for what he did but instead they are conspiring with the targs and speaking of secret pacts.

I have to believe that Dorne was involved with Rhaegar in some plot to overthrow Aerys (who clearly didn't know anything) and fulfill the prophecy. There is more than meets the eye here with Dorne and Rhaegar and Jon and Aegon, Starfall, Arthur and Ashara Dayne etc Dornes actions are completely inconsistent as well as inconsistent with Jaimes perception of Dornes allegiance and Aerys need for hostages.

We're discussing with the premise that Jon is legitimate, yes? In this case, Jon would have his normal place in the line of succession, after Aegon, not legitimized upon the deathbed like Daemon, who had no claim whatsoever in the first place. And Cersei had Roberts Bastard's killed because they could've easily revealed the incest, not because of succession.

You're speaking of Dorne of unanimous entity; I find that a bit problematic, especially in the second paragraph. There is no indication, not even the faintest hint that anyone besides the Daynes had any part in harboring Rhaegar and Lyanna, and one Dayne was obliged to do so anyway. Other dornish houses, namely the Martells, probably knew nothing of this.

As stated before, why should they harbor explicit hatred for Rhaegar, who is long dead, and whose main fault was taking a paramour, especially given that Elia's health was too delicate to bear another child, anyway? Even if they harbored a resentment for Rhaegar because of his elopement with Lyanna, this might've faded out due to Tywin's monstrosities.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that Dorne's actions are completely inconsistent, would you care to explain? The only inconsistency I can see during the Rebellion is not sending more spears, but they did not expect the Rebels to win against superior number and they did not expect Aerys to open his gates to a foe.

eta: just to clarify, I'm not negating that there might be more to the Martell's or the Dayne's behaviour than meets the eye, but I'm not supportive of concluding it with such certainty.

[The guy from the Vale]

Jon is not son of Rhaegar. It seems everybody forgets one simple and strong magic that is present from the start of the series. The seed is strong.

The seed is strong only ever refers to Baratheons though. ned's own children look like their mother (with the exception of Arya); Rhaegar's daughter Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish looks, as had Baelor Breakspear. Jon has his looks from his mother.

Also, please look at the reference guide before posting something that has been refuted a mere gazillion times before.

[Dio Forel]

I dont know if this has been mentioned.... It probably hasnt bc its pretty out there... But I say R + L = J. Would this be the right thread for such a rare speculation?

[Greymoon]

Jon is not son of Rhaegar. It seems everybody forgets one simple and strong magic that is present from the start of the series. The seed is strong.

I never understood that as a form of magic, but as an archaic science, in the way that westerosis have little understanding of genetics. Not all Targaryens have had a fair coloring. Baratheon seed is obviously 'stronger' than Targaryen seed anyhow, because Robert and Rhaegar were related, but Robert obviously didn't have the Targ look. So, the Stark seed might just be 'stronger' too, as in, the silver hair and purple eyes are recessive genes. Just like the Lannister blond might be recessive...which mirrors our own genetics just a bit. Thought admittedly, it's much more complicated than that, in real life.

Anyone ever thought to understand 'seed' in a metaphorical way? The 'seed' is strong, as in the 'corruption', or the 'doubt', or the Lannister's influence is growing? like a tree taking root? I'm not saying it should only be understood that way, but I like to think there's a double meaning here...

[Dio Forel]

I think there's a lot to be said about Ghost's significance in Jon's heritage.

I always thought a big clue was that Jon and Ghost was the first warging experience we ever read. When Jon "hears" him barking but none of the others do and it is later revealed that Ghost is mute, the only way this can be explained is with warging. So there was this experience without Jon ever laying eyes on him (on the contrary it made sure he found him) and the only explanation I can think of is that Ghost truly was meant for Jon.

I think it's also significant that we get Summer's viewpoint via Bran and his thoughts on the rest of the "pack". He specifically talks about his brothers and sisters and refers to Ghost as "the other one". Now, I don't think wolves care so much about whose daddy is who, they would still see the others as siblings, unless they didn't even have one parent in common (aka coming from a different "pack"). So if Summer doesn't see Ghost as being a sibling, I think it's at least worth considering that means Jon isn't a sibling to the others, instead, in this case, a cousin.

The interesting, and sad, thing is on the show we barely even see the wolves. The showrunners know what is to come... And with how important the wolves are expected, by us, to be... It is very curious why the showrunners, knowing what they know, seem to operate in a way where the wolves are basically non-entities. At best they have captured 30 seconds of screentime.

[finger]

I was always wondered why Ned felt so compelled to go to Starfall and surrender Ashara Arthur's sword personally. He must have known he woukdn't be greeted warmly. Of course, if Wylla was there, in ToJ, and we know someone was with Howland when they found Ned with Lyanna, she could have redirected him and Howland to Starfall, and Ashara. This would give some time to create a cover story for Jon, even to Ned spent some time with Wylla so the rumor about pregnancy and Wylla giving birth to a boy would be valid. And yes, I always assumed Daynes knew about R+L long before Ned. After all, Arthur must have been with Rhaegar when Lyanna was kidnapped/run away.

A doubt. Is it said that Ashara was in Starfall when Ned took the sword there?

I agree that some details make us think in some kind of bond between Starfall and Winterfell. I hope we'll know more about it in the next book.

[zaki]

I dont know, I haven't read probably 1% of all theories, so I can't connect all the dots, or can't see all the dots. But I'm 99.99% convinced that this is just not gonna happen. Jon is a Stark bastard, Lyannas or Neds, I don't know for sure, but certainly not Rhaegars. So here are my reasons..

In the books Lyanna was described as wild, so much that Ned sees Arya in her, Rhaegar was somber, sad and dutiful, looking at it that way, they were probably perfect for each other. But if Rhaegar really was his father, he'd probably have at least some of the Targ features, but he is described as a pure Stark (lean, brown hair, grey eyes). Further on, if he was Rhaegars son, he probably wouldnt get Ghost, and he for sure wouldnt be able to warg into Ghost. To further on, even though he is a Snow, he chooses duty and at least some honor at NW insted of doing whatever bastards do in Westeros.

I know that is short, and probably not developed as all the other theories, but my point stands, he's a pure Stark, despite being a Snow. The seed is strong. And that is all.

btw. How ridiculous does Jon Targaryen sound? Jon is a Snow, his duty is on the wall, everything else I simply dont see happening.