R+L=J v. 56

[Ruby Chevrolet]

I am not sure that this conclusion is valid. First, Ned couldn't be married to Ashara, because he would not marry Cat.

It's widely believed that Rhaegar took two wives and one of them was Eddard's sister. Why couldn't Eddard do the same?

It is also widely believed that Eddard confessed his "treason" against Joffrey in the name of the Seven because he thought it didn't count. If he married Ashara in front of the Old Gods and Catelyn in front of the Seven then technically he might not consider that bigamy.

At the time, Ashara was still alive. As for bethrotal, it's simple answer, the engagements were off once Ned married Catelyn. Child Ashara got was a girl, according to Barristan, which of course isn't the most reliable source, plus the child's birth is nine months after Harrenhall, that's why the rumors some Stark (most likely Brandon) disgraced Ashara. For Jon to be Ashara's son, he would need to be concieved 1-3 months in war, and Ashara was nowhere near Eddard at that time. So, it doesn't fit.

I think Ashara got pregnant "at Harrenhal" as Barristan says but I don't think it was during the tournament in the year of the false spring. I think Eddard met up with Ashara "at Harrenhal" some time after the Rebellion started just like Catelyn was able to have a meeting with Renly and Stannis near Storm's End during the middle of the War of Five Kings.

As for lying about Jon's age, I don't know he lied. He just brought the child, said they would raise him, and that's that. I doubt Ned troubled Cat with Jon's age, knowing that Jon's status as bastard. But given that Jon celebrated his nameday, Ned must have decided how old he is. Most likely, it was the day he found him, or the approximate day. I don't see the need of lying if child's status has already been determined.

If Jon is Ashara's son and Eddard and Ashara met up at Starfall long enough to concoct this plot then Eddard knows Jon's real birthday and that Jon is older than Robb. But he is letting everyone think Jon is younger than Robb. So this could be one of the "lies" Eddard has been living for the last 14 years.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

And do you have any reason to believe Lemore's eyes are purple? It works both ways... Lack of evidence isn't an evidence

I'm not saying that just because we don't know her eye color then her eyes must be purple. I am answering Greymoon's statement that Lemore has the wrong colored eyes by pointing out that we don't know what color her eyes are.

[Mladen]

It's widely believed that Rhaegar took two wives and one of them was Eddard's sister. Why couldn't Eddard do the same?

Ned isn't Targaryen, and there aren't special circumstances like prophecy in Rhaegar's case.

It is also widely believed that Eddard confessed his "treason" against Joffrey in the name of the Seven because he thought it didn't count. If he married Ashara in front of the Old Gods and Catelyn in front of the Seven then technically he might not consider that bigamy.

Riverrun has Godswood, therefore I imagine the wedding occured there, or in both places. And Ned isn't type of man that would count on techincality.

I think Ashara got pregnant "at Harrenhal" as Barristan says but I don't think it was during the tournament in the year of the false spring. I think Eddard met up with Ashara "at Harrenhal" some time after the Rebellion started just like Catelyn was able to have a meeting with Renly and Stannis near Storm's End during the middle of the War of Five Kings.

I doubt that. It is clearly indicated that Ashara's preganancy started somewhere during Harrenhall tourney. It simply doesn't fit.

If Jon is Ashara's son and Eddard and Ashara met up at Starfall long enough to concoct this plot then Eddard knows Jon's real birthday and that Jon is older than Robb. But he is letting everyone think Jon is younger than Robb. So this could be one of the "lies" Eddard has been living for the last 14 years.

No, because even if Jon is older than Robb, what difference does it make. The boy remains a bastard, and there is no need for lying. The lying part only works if Ned was married to Ashara, and from all we know, logically we can assume he wasn't.

[CakeOfTheMorning]

Varamyr says that Ghost would be a second life worthy of a king. Now, Jon is dead and warged into Ghost most likely.

[Alia of the knife]

Varamyr says that Ghost would be a second life worthy of a king. Now, Jon is dead and warged into Ghost most likely.

Good catch.

I don't think Jon is actually dead, but I do think that analogy could be another indicator of Jons status and birthright the same way the crow was constantly saying "King."

[corbon]

My biggest problem with this whole theory is that Jon Targaryen sounds so ridiculous and absurd to me. I just can't process that he could be Targ. It's so ridiculous to me. I don't want to offend anyone here, I see that you put much effort into discussing this, but I just don't see it happening. For me, he's a Snow, son of a Stark, and not a Targ in any way possible..

So, summarise shall we:

Literally years of intensive and exhaustive analysis from a wide variety of angles, incuding textual, literary, historical, allegorical etc etc, are all dismissable for literally no other reason than because you don't like the way the end result sounds?

And to replace this unpalatable theory, you have one that is proven wrong in moments, repeatedly, by textual example? But it feels nice, so you'll keep it anyway.

Ok then.

And do you have any reason to believe Lemore's eyes are purple? It works both ways... Lack of evidence isn't an evidence

But its a equal counter when lack of evidence is being used as evidence... bolded below...

But what of Varys and Illyrio? What's the deal then? Why support Aegon, if he is not in fact a Mopatis? And Ashara = Lemore, there's plenty of things here too, that don't add up. Eye color, for once. Plus...Barristan says Ashara's girl was still born, so unless Ashara got pregnant again, right after the still birth, then she can't be Jon's mother.

You know, we might as well argue that Lyanna is not dead, and that she is septa Lemore.

:bang:

You should really go read the appropriate threads instead of bringing that up here, but in the first case you are taking absence of evidence as evidence of absence, which is a logical fallacy, and in the second you are assuming a third hand data source with no connection to the original data is infallible, which is... not smart.

Lyanna is dead. We have a first hand source showing us it in his own thoughts.

Ashara may be dead, but its actually pretty unlikely. We have claims by third hand sources with no connection to the event - thats the only 'plus' for her being dead, and its as weak as any plus gets. We have a known 'missing body' anyway, several potential reasons for a faked disappearance, and to cap it all off a mysterious charcter with over a dozen connections to Ashara Dayne.

[Ahai I'm Jon Snow]

I just noticed on re-read that Jon`s eyes are darker than Stark grey

[Dr. Pepper]

My biggest problem with this whole theory is that Jon Targaryen sounds so ridiculous and absurd to me.

This really isn't a bad way to come up with secret parentage/Targ theories. If a name sounds ridiculous and absurd, then the character probably is an X+Y=Z. For example, I always thought Hot Pie sounded so ridiculous and absurd. I think "Hot" would sound so much better paired with Targaryen or Stark. Hot Targaryen because, well, Targs have the fireproof thingy going on. Hot Stark because it's ironic. In fact, Hot Stark-Targaryen seems the most reasonable. He's probably one of the other of First Men/Targ lineage.

[Nami]

I just noticed on re-read that Jon`s eyes are darker than Stark grey

Makes me wonder if maybe Jon's eyes actually were dark indigo, like Rhaegar's , and it changed with time.

[Jon Icefyre]

One of the big issues I have with the whole "Ashara/Septa Lemore being YG's mother " thing is YG's description. If you're saying that Ashara had an affair with Rhaegar or that she was raped by Aerys, then fine so be it, that would technically fit YG's description. But for anyone who is trying to argue that YG's father is Brandon or Ned, I'm sorry but it doesn't add up at all. Yes YG has purple eyes but he's also described as having 'silver' hair. And while the Dayne's in general are known to have purple eyes, their hair color is described as ranging from "dark brown to pale blond" not silver. If YG's hair was pale blonde then I'm sure GRRM would've just had Tyrion or another character describe it as exactly that, the way Edric Dayne's hair was described as "pale blonde", but no YG's hair is described as 'silver' which suggest Valyrian roots. It's a known fact that there are numerous Valyrian descendents that still live in Essos and the Targs are obviously descendents as well which narrows YG's heritage to either Targ, Blackfyre, or the blood of an unknown Valyrian house. But this pretty much rules out the idea that Ashara/Septa Lemore and a non Valyrian descendent like Brandon or Ned Stark are YG's parents.

Again if you're talking about Ashara and Aerys or Rhaegar then it's still possible, but Ned and Brandon are out of the question. The Daynes have never been noted as having 'silver' hair, pale blonde is different than 'silver', and I know there are ppl that will try to argue that pale blond hair and silver hair are pretty much the same thing, but IMO in GRRM's novel world I would say they really aren't the same thing. Furthermore, GRRM gives us proof of this when he decided to label certain characters throughout the series as having blonde or pale blond hair, and others as having 'silver' hair.

I think a lot of ppl get caught up with fact that GRRM has more of a 'realistic' sense to his fantasy novels that they forget about the 'fantasy' aspect that GRRM obviously still puts in the novels. In the real world someone with blonde hair could still be describes as having 'silver' hair, but if that were the case in GRRM's novels then why are ppl like Edric Dayne described as having pale blond hair instead of 'silver' hair? IMO GRRM is clearly showing the difference between the two labels.....

[Moët]

Ned erects a statue of Lyanna in the crypts.

I believe hers is the only statue of a Stark female. All the other statues are of the old Kings of Winter and later lords of Winterfell, (Brandon would have been lord had he lived).

In my opinion, Ned was not only doing silent homage to her own royal status as a Princess in marriage to Rhaegar, but also keeping her physical image close to the son she made him promise to protect.

Excellent point.

[Jon Icefyre]

DP sorry

[Ygrain]

I just noticed on re-read that Jon`s eyes are darker than Stark grey

Yes, they are so dark grey that they look black. Darkstar's eyes are so dark purple that they look black. One really has to wonder what Jon's eyes would look like if he bleached his hair and put on somehing purple, as it has been pointed out repeatedly how the colour of hair/clothes affects the perception of eyes.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

One of the big issues I have with the whole "Ashara/Septa Lemore being YG's mother " thing is YG's description. If you're saying that Ashara had an affair with Rhaegar or that she was raped by Aerys, then fine so be it, that would technically fit YG's description. But for anyone who is trying to argue that YG's father is Brandon or Ned, I'm sorry but it doesn't add up at all. Yes YG has purple eyes but he's also described as having 'silver' hair. And while the Dayne's in general are known to have purple eyes, their hair color is described as ranging from "dark brown to pale blond" not silver. If YG's hair was pale blonde then I'm sure GRRM would've just had Tyrion or another character describe it as exactly that, the way Edric Dayne's hair was described as "pale blonde", but no YG's hair is described as 'silver' which suggest Valyrian roots. It's a known fact that there are numerous Valyrian descendents that still live in Essos and the Targs are obviously descendents as well which narrows YG's heritage to either Targ, Blackfyre, or the blood of an unknown Valyrian house. But this pretty much rules out the idea that Ashara/Septa Lemore and a non Valyrian descendent like Brandon or Ned Stark are YG's parents.

Again if you're talking about Ashara and Aerys or Rhaegar then it's still possible, but Ned and Brandon are out of the question. The Daynes have never been noted as having 'silver' hair, pale blonde is different than 'silver', and I know there are ppl that will try to argue that pale blond hair and silver hair are pretty much the same thing, but IMO in GRRM's novel world I would say they really aren't the same thing. Furthermore, GRRM gives us proof of this when he decided to label certain characters throughout the series as having blonde or pale blond hair, and others as having 'silver' hair.

I think a lot of ppl get caught up with fact that GRRM has more of a 'realistic' sense to his fantasy novels that they forget about the 'fantasy' aspect that GRRM obviously still puts in the novels. In the real world someone with blonde hair could still be describes as having 'silver' hair, but if that were the case in GRRM's novels then why are ppl like Edric Dayne described as having pale blond hair instead of 'silver' hair? IMO GRRM is clearly showing the difference between the two labels.....

Young Griff's hair is never described as "silver." It is only ever described as blue because even when he goes to meet the Golden Company he is still coloring it.

Much like Septa Lemore's eye color, the reader is left to wonder what color Young Griff's hair is when he washes it out.

But I am not saying Young Griff is Ashara's son. I'm saying Young Griff is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Under this theory, Jon Snow would be the son of Eddard and Ashara and he looks like his father.

[Ygrain]

So it looks like a lot of the R+L=J theory hangs on the assumption that Ashara Dayne is dead. But that assumption may just not be true.

This is pure self-deception. There are tons of evidence for R+L=J, all in concord and pointing towards the one single conclusion, out of which I cited a handful, which you weren't even able to refute without convoluted and illogical constructions.

The promise = keep YG safely hidden? Sure, I see it - promise me, Ned, that you will send my child off to Essos, let him be entangled in a game of thrones as a pawn of one totally trustworthy eunuch, and never once in your life pay a single thought to him or his whereabouts. That's about as plausible as Eddard committing bigamy.

[Dr. Pepper]

So it looks like a lot of the R+L=J theory hangs on the assumption that Ashara Dayne is dead. But that assumption may just not be true.

Pretty much none of the core of the theory even deals with Ashara's breathing status at all beyond the logical question of asking why it would need to be super secret if she was the mother.

[Ygrain]

Pretty much none of the core of the theory even deals with Ashara's breathing status at all beyond the logical question of asking why it would need to be super secret if she was the mother.

Because the moment Jon would hear that his mother committed suicide, he would run off to Starfall to investigate if this is true and what not and after about two hours of angsty questioning around and moving the hearts of his initially disinclined relatives, he would find out the whole plot. - What, Hollywood does this the whole time, or not?

[Dr. Pepper]

Because the moment Jon would hear that his mother committed suicide, he would run off to Starfall to investigate if this is true and what not and after about two hours of angsty questioning around and moving the hearts of his initially disinclined relatives, he would find out the whole plot. - What, Hollywood does this the whole time, or not?

Oh dear, can you imagine how many books that would take? All of those descriptions of Jon traveling the Neck, the Riverlands, Crownlands, Stormlands, maybe the Reach and then into Dorne, because you know that he couldn't just go by boat. And all the people he'd meet and their sage advice and all the food to foreshadow what will happen when he finally gets to Starfall. He'll probably have to spend time in plots that help him 'find himself' so that when he gets to Starfall and learns the truth, it will have an even bigger impact. Plus there needs to be a way to include dragons, wargs, and wars. I'm thinking a seven-part series, at least.

[Rhaegar's Love]

I read a theory the other day about Ashara being Meera and Jojen's mother. I was fully expecting to roll my eyes but it actually makes a lot of sense and is extremely well argued. Here's the link if anyone is interested:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/

I'm not sure about the part with Arthur Dayne being alive, but it doesn't make or break the H+A=M&J either way though.

So it's possible that she is alive and has been hiding out in the Neck and because she knows what happened at the ToJ and if she's discovered, questions about Jon's parentage could end up coming out and that's what Ned wanted to avoid.

[Greymoon]

:bang:

You should really go read the appropriate threads instead of bringing that up here, but in the first case you are taking absence of evidence as evidence of absence, which is a logical fallacy, and in the second you are assuming a third hand data source with no connection to the original data is infallible, which is... not smart.

Lyanna is dead. We have a first hand source showing us it in his own thoughts.

Ashara may be dead, but its actually pretty unlikely. We have claims by third hand sources with no connection to the event - thats the only 'plus' for her being dead, and its as weak as any plus gets. We have a known 'missing body' anyway, several potential reasons for a faked disappearance, and to cap it all off a mysterious charcter with over a dozen connections to Ashara Dayne.

Oh, please it was of course Irony. I don't believe Lyanna is alive, I was just stating that for me, to argue Ashara = Alive= Lemore = Jon's mother, plus Young Griff = Son of Lyanna and Rhaegar amounts to the same ridicule as arguing that Lyanna is alive.