Shae + Tysha (books) vs TV Shae

[The Flaymaester]

So I always felt that the entire Tysha sub-story was weak as it happens in the past and the readers only find out through recollections. I think D&D are leading TV Shae to take Tysha's place which is actually a better move. Imagine the climax of episode 9 in season 4 during Tyrion's escape, when Jaime is telling Tyrion that "Tysha was not a whore"- half the TV audience would be like "WTF is Tysha?" In the show, I think Tywin will find out that Tyrion is sleeping with Shae and will first force Shae to take the stand in the trial against Tyrion. After her testimony, Tywin will give Shae to his guards a la Tysha. Jaime will tell Tyrion what happened to Shae and Tyrion will kill Tywin. This is a more powerful plot for the series then for Tysha to be brought up, someone whom the audience has never heard of and only Tyrion talks about her once.

Which version do you think would be more powerful?

[aceluby]

There is an entire scence dedicated to Tysha in the first season describing that scene and it wouldn't take much to remind the viewers of this through the 'what happened previously' segment or through new dialog, such as between Tyrion and Shae as they sneak about. Plus, watching guards have their way w/ her is byeond 'powerful'... it's disgusting.

[PrimeRhaegar]

wouldn't be surprised if they changed it like that

[N/A]

threads like these have a nasty habit of getting locked, so you might wanna move it :D

[Varamyr Sixskins]

So I always felt that the entire Tysha sub-story was weak as it happens in the past and the readers only find out through recollections. I think D&D are leading TV Shae to take Tysha's place which is actually a better move. Imagine the climax of episode 9 in season 4 during Tyrion's escape, when Jaime is telling Tyrion that "Tysha was not a whore"- half the TV audience would be like "WTF is Tysha?" .... a more powerful plot for the series then for Tysha to be brought up, someone whom the audience has never heard of and only Tyrion talks about her once.

I agree. The story of Tysha, as told through the TV series has nowhere near the emotional connection to viewers as the story did to readers. In the books, we see glimpses of Tyrion's reminisces over Tysha and the "false spring of their marriage", the gratitude that Tyrion felt to Jaime for his kindness, and the slight guilt that Jaime felt over the whole incident, foreshadowing the revelation. Not to mention the clues that Shae was just using him for wealth.

In the tv show, we just don't have this, and it would tantamount to a "heel face turn" http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn for Shae to turn on Tyrion heartlessly. I think it's far more likely that somehow Shae will be coerced into taking an action into "betraying" Tyrion, following which Tyrion will murder her, only to have Jaime tell him "April Fools!"

[Mad Monkey]

Shae's character has more depth than she was given in the books, to the point where she even stars in some scenes with no other POV characters from the books around. While I don't like the idea of them flat-out reusing Tysha's whole backstory for Shae (and I really, really don't watch a brutal sexual assault just for the purpose of giving Tyrion a character moment that he already experienced many years ago), I do think the writers have created room to take Shae's character in another direction if they so choose.

[Newstar]

There are two big problems with Shae and Tyrion's relationship playing out the way it did in the books:

1. Shae appears to have genuine love for Tyrion, to the point where she'll turn down sensible offers of wealth and security (from Varys, for one) to stay close to him. To turn around and betray him for mercenary considerations in the most humiliating way possible, let around move on to Tywin like it's no big deal, would be completely out of character.

2. Tyrion is a nicer guy in the TV series than he is in the books. For him to murder Shae would be completely out of character.

So it would be a face heel turn for both Shae and Tyrion. TV Shae could betray Tyrion without it being a complete shredding of her TV character in a number of plausible ways--she's coerced, she's reluctant but is convinced that no harm will come to Tyrion and that he'll only be sent to the Wall, she's trying to protect Sansa (the girl she claims she would die for), etc.--but I have no idea what they're going to do about TV Tyrion. I've seen speculation that Tywin will murder Shae and Tyrion will murder Tywin in retaliation, but that doesn't seem dark enough to get Tyrion where he needs to go in ADWD.

[Varamyr Sixskins]

@Newstar: excellent points. I agree completely with you regarding Tyrion.

I can't grasp why TV Tywin can murder Shae in character. In the books, Tywin seemed to almost have a subconscious need to castrate his son: he never bothered to set up betrothals, destroyed Tyrion's first marriage, and did everything he could to prevent Tyrion from whoring, while he himself did as much. In the tv show, though Tywin quietly despises his son, he seems to be much more "pragmatically evil" (or perhaps, just plainly pragmatic), and I don't think he threatened to kill Tyrion's next 'whore'.

Enter Joffrey: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheCaligula

New prediction:

Joffrey somehow discovers about Shae's connection to Tyrion and decides to appropriate her for his amusements, much as he did with Ros. Tywin stands by and does nothing, and prevents Tyrion from defending Shae, for how can a 'whore' be worth more than the reputation of the Lannisters? Tywin or Margaery/Olenna kill Joffrey, and after escape, Tyrion murders Tywin.

[Newstar]

@Newstar: excellent points. I agree completely with you regarding Tyrion.

I can't grasp why TV Tywin can murder Shae in character. In the books, Tywin seemed to almost have a subconscious need to castrate his son: he never bothered to set up betrothals, destroyed Tyrion's first marriage, and did everything he could to prevent Tyrion from whoring, while he himself did as much. In the tv show, though Tywin quietly despises his son, he seems to be much more "pragmatically evil" (or perhaps, just plainly pragmatic), and I don't think he threatened to kill Tyrion's next 'whore'.

TV Tywin did threaten to hang the next whore he found in Tyrion's bed as he did in the books, but he does seem less obsessive about Tyrion's sex life than he was in the books.

I guess that even if Shae does decide to turn on Tyrion, it would seem like a big stretch for Tyrion to believe that Shae had been acting the whole time and had never loved him. In the books, it was more as if the scales fell from his eyes and he saw Shae for what he really was, and the reader had little hints here and there to suggest to the reader that Tyrion was clearly fooling himself about Shae. In the show, whatever Shae decides to do from here on in, her love for Tyrion seems very genuine and there's really no basis for the viewer to doubt that she loves him.

In the books, Tyrion's total breakdown is largely motivated by the realization that 1) Shae never loved him, 2) Tysha was the only one who ever truly loved him, and 3) Jaime helped take away the one woman who ever loved him away from him. In the show, if Shae ever loved Tyrion genuinely--even if she turns on him in Season 3--then all these three truths are out the window: Shae did love him at some point (even if she ultimately sold him out for whatever reason), Tysha is no longer the only one who ever loved him, and Jaime will have nothing to do with the end of Shae and Tyrion's relationship.

[Lannister Hamster]

They have introduced the concept of Tysha but not reinforced it.

They have an entire series to make sure it matters to the audience.

I don't see any way that Shae is not going to meet the same end as in the books in the same way. Especially as they have already introduced the chain.

[Lord Jakkor]

While they certainly could go that route, I doubt it. They have spoken of Tysha more than once in the show. For example when Tywin tells Tyrion he's going to be wed to Sansa, something is said to which Tyrion responds "I WAS married."

I also could see a few conversations come up again about it this season. Perhaps Tyrion will tell Sansa about her one night, or Pod, or Varys, or maybe to someone while he's sitting in his cell awaiting trial.

I think it's more likely that Shae die at the hands of Tywin (or rather, his orders) than she replaces Tysha though. Perhaps Shae will be forced to testify, and Tyrion will be absolutely crushed. However, Varys visits and tells him that she had no choice, that they told her they would send Tyrion to the wall if she testified. If she refused, Tyrion would be put to death and Shae would be killed after being forced to watch (maybe we even see this scene play out with Cersei threatening Shae). Tyrion says he understands and asks Varys to get Shae to safety if at all possible.

When Tyrion escapes, as Varys is leading him out, he asks where Shae is. He has to go get her before he flees. Varys informs Tyrion that after her testimony, Tywin had her hanged (as he once promised). This is what prompts Tyrion to kill Tywin.

I'm hoping it's like in the books. But I could see something like above if they choose to change it. But since the show has at times been more brutal than the books (Red Wedding), I think they'll stick with the original plot.

[Rhyella Targaryen]

While they certainly could go that route, I doubt it. They have spoken of Tysha more than once in the show. For example when Tywin tells Tyrion he's going to be wed to Sansa, something is said to which Tyrion responds "I WAS married."

I also could see a few conversations come up again about it this season. Perhaps Tyrion will tell Sansa about her one night, or Pod, or Varys, or maybe to someone while he's sitting in his cell awaiting trial.

I think it's more likely that Shae die at the hands of Tywin (or rather, his orders) than she replaces Tysha though. Perhaps Shae will be forced to testify, and Tyrion will be absolutely crushed. However, Varys visits and tells him that she had no choice, that they told her they would send Tyrion to the wall if she testified. If she refused, Tyrion would be put to death and Shae would be killed after being forced to watch (maybe we even see this scene play out with Cersei threatening Shae). Tyrion says he understands and asks Varys to get Shae to safety if at all possible.

When Tyrion escapes, as Varys is leading him out, he asks where Shae is. He has to go get her before he flees. Varys informs Tyrion that after her testimony, Tywin had her hanged (as he once promised). This is what prompts Tyrion to kill Tywin.

I'm hoping it's like in the books. But I could see something like above if they choose to change it. But since the show has at times been more brutal than the books (Red Wedding), I think they'll stick with the original plot.

Yeah, I agree with your theory. It sounds less out of the story like the others, and like you, I want very bad Tyrion to kill her haha Maybe our dream will come true. It did when Talisa was stabbed :devil:

[Hug0r]

I would be okay with that if Tyrion hadn't killed Shae in the books. I think that it's very important to his character and if the show writers decided to avoid that it would be a bad move on their behalf.