Ser Gerold Dayne aka Darkstar: Character Analysis

[Borsabil]

I like all the quotes you put up its good to see lots of evidence in posts (im guilty of not doing that well enough).

Darkstar does seem like a dangerous person and i also don't really understand the whole hilarity behind his character, he seems just as corny as some others and though i do admit he can say some strange things like 'for i am of the night' which to me doesn't make a whole lot of sense that makes him almost more appealing to me as he is a new unusual and different character.

The story of the smiling knight is that Arthur Dayne gave him (the smiling knight) his sword before the dueled in a 1v1 aha and Arthur Dayne won. Plus the Smiling Knight was apparently a very formidable opponent. There is some famous quote people masturbate to that arthur daye said, personally i think its a bit corny and another reason im not a huge fan of the guy, with the addition that everyone seems to orgasm over him despite the fact that like this guy says:

there is only like 2 pages worth of material of the guy and some people act like they know his life story...

I would also like to know a bit more about Arthur Dayne before he got Dawn as you said their is almost no (if not nothing at all) on his life pre Knight of the Morning title

The quote is from Jamie's POV. Dayne certainly did not give the smiling knight his sword, from memory they'd been fighting for a while and the smiling knight said he wanted Daynes sword and he relplied 'well you should have it' and proceeded to run him through. I'm quoting from memory as I can't be assed to look it up.

This entire Tower of Joy stuff is very strange. Why should 3 of the best knights of the seven kingdoms, including the best knight with a Valyrian steel sword, lose a fight against these Northern men that probably are way worse fighters and also don't seem to be highly intelligent. I cannot reason my statement, but I think that at least Ser Arthur is alive; it might also be that none of them died (I'm not even sure about Lyanna). We haven't heard about the corpses of them from anybody besides Eddard IIRC and it just seems mysterious. I think he doesn't really want to thin about this time of his life since it barely appears/only in a dream. All of them (the 3 KG and the other Northerners + Ashara Dayne could just have sailed off to Essos or Sothoryos. I am pretty sure that the entire plot will be revealed by Bran in TWOW or ADOS.

Regarding Darkstar, I could also imagine him to be Arthur Dayne. Of course, it's quite impossible for his age aso, but this might also just be a magic trick (Rattleshirt/Mance, something of this kind). Moreover, we know nothing about Darkstar's parentage yet. And in addition to this, I'm pretty sure that he intended to cut off Myrcella's ear, but did not want to kill her. If he wanted to kill her, he could have done it easily; an 11-year old girl is not that hard to hit I assume.

Edit: Also I find it pretty intersting that House Whent and House Darry have no one of their "male line" left - I just cannot believe that the KGs of their houses are dead. The old KG just sounded to be too awesome to die one by one.

Ned was told by someone that Leanna was at the ToJ, the idea that he just happened upon them is ridiculous. It depends who you think would have told him, someone close to Rhaeghar definitely. Not Jamie or Barristan, so one of the 'dead' KG. I've always had a sneaking suspicion that Ser Arthur had something to do with it.

[Throng of Mice and Mire]

What doesn't make sense about that "I am of the night" quote? He quite literally states his disapproval of Arthur Dayne specifically, who is all about the "Sword of the Morning", and the sword 'Dawn'. He is quite blatantly saying that he is not like Arthur Dayne with his honour, loyalty, and chivalry. He is the antithesis of the Daynes that people know and love, hence "of the night" contrasting with "Sword of the Morning" and 'Dawn'. This shouldn't be hard to see.

Its really amazing how many people don't seem to get this. Its not his catch phrase or something. He's just saying "I am not Arthur Dayne"

I think Darkstar is a cool little character. Obviously we only met him for 5 minutes, but in that time he established himself as a dangerous and unpredictable man with smarts and wit. What else do you want?

You can't say "all he's done is fail to kill a little girl" because while we haven't seen him doing anything. He has established a big reputation in Dorne clearly. Multiple POV's who's opinion has weight, regard him as someone not to fuck with. That wide reaching reputation must be built on something. The fact that we don't know what that is...yet, makes him interesting.

[James Arryn]

Here's what we know: he's male, and described as very good looking.

So really it's just a matter of which future path GRRM chooses:

1) Maiming

2) Disfiguring

3) Emasculation

4) Obesity

5) Violent Death

...or a combination bouquet. We don't need rusty pub signs or bard's tales for this one. Being described as a very attractive male is the ASOIF equivalent of being the rich hated matriarch/patriarch at the beginning of a classic whodunit. It's just a question of where, when and how.

[SM4e]

Ned was told by someone that Leanna was at the ToJ, the idea that he just happened upon them is ridiculous. It depends who you think would have told him, someone close to Rhaeghar definitely. Not Jamie or Barristan, so one of the 'dead' KG. I've always had a sneaking suspicion that Ser Arthur had something to do with it.

Maybe Rhaegar himself (if he had the opportunity to do so), I'm not very into the Targaryens and Robert's rebellion, but this would support my opinion. I just don't think that all the old KG's are dead since some of them (Hightower/Dayne) are mentioned so often by Jaime or Barristan. The Dayne's are a fairly mysterious family and I can reall see Darkstar being Arthur(by some magical thing or something).

Furthermore, I just realized that Arthur from English mytholigy also was one of the most important characters and he also had a legendary sword, and so is Arthur Dayne with Dawn. I just don't think his story has been finished yet.

[Borsabil]

Maybe Rhaegar himself (if he had the opportunity to do so), I'm not very into the Targaryens and Robert's rebellion, but this would support my opinion. I just don't think that all the old KG's are dead since some of them (Hightower/Dayne) are mentioned so often by Jaime or Barristan. The Dayne's are a fairly mysterious family and I can reall see Darkstar being Arthur(by some magical thing or something).

Furthermore, I just realized that Arthur from English mytholigy also was one of the most important characters and he also had a legendary sword, and so is Arthur Dayne with Dawn. I just don't think his story has been finished yet.

When Rhaeghar left Leanna clearly he intended to come back, but knowing his character, as much as we do, it could well be within the plot that Martin has him leaving instructions to his KG about what to do in the event of his death. In fact as he was marching to war it would be odd if he didn't leave instructions. The main part would have been what to do with Leanna and the expected baby, to keep them safe and out of the reach of Robert (who would likely as not have the babe killed for being a rival heir and the offspring from the 'rape' of his one true love).

Now we can speculate at what Rhaeghar might have told the KG at the ToJ if he's killed? Rhaeghar would have known about Ned's decency and honor, as he was famous for it and besides he'd been with his sister for over a year. He'd have known that the one person who could protect his kid if he died would be Ned, a Lord Paramount, a blood relative of his child and someone who would never countenance the murder of a babe. So one of the KG at the ToJ could well have contacted Ned when he heard of Rhaeghars death, and the likeliest candidate IMO is Arthur, who was closest to Rhaeghar. Note also that the place Ned went to after the ToJ, to seek aid, was Starfall, an odd choice to go to the home of a man you just killed.

[The Taxman]

When Rhaeghar left Leanna clearly he intended to come back, but knowing his character, as much as we do, it could well be within the plot that Martin has him leaving instructions to his KG about what to do in the event of his death. In fact as he was marching to war it would be odd if he didn't leave instructions. The main part would have been what to do with Leanna and the expected baby, to keep them safe and out of the reach of Robert (who would likely as not have the babe killed for being a rival heir and the offspring from the 'rape' of his one true love).

Now we can speculate at what Rhaeghar might have told the KG at the ToJ if he's killed? Rhaeghar would have known about Ned's decency and honor, as he was famous for it and besides he'd been with his sister for over a year. He'd have known that the one person who could protect his kid if he died would be Ned, a Lord Paramount, a blood relative of his child and someone who would never countenance the murder of a babe. So one of the KG at the ToJ could well have contacted Ned when he heard of Rhaeghars death, and the likeliest candidate IMO is Arthur, who was closest to Rhaeghar. Note also that the place Ned went to after the ToJ, to seek aid, was Starfall, an odd choice to go to the home of a man you just killed.

I really don think Rhaegar thought he was coming back from the Trident. You don't get enamored in rubies and leave your best KGs at TOJ if you believed in victory and truly went for the kill.

[shiola]

how on earth can you analyze this guy over 2 pages worth of material ?

not sure if impressed or think that this is stupid

how can there be multiple threads dedicated to prophecies and dreams and foreshadowing that take up less than one page?

you can analyze anything you want in this series. just because you can't see the depth in a character due to their time on page doesn't mean that it's stupid to look for it.

[ckal]

Yeah, you have to pay attention to the context in which he says ''I am of the night.'' It's right after Myrcella mentions Arthur, who was the Sword of the Morning. Arthur was known as honorable and chivalrous, whereas Darkstar, being of the night, would make him the complete opposite of this. Cruel, sly etc.

I am interested to see what Darkstar will be up to in the future, I said a while ago, I think he'll kill Balon Swann. The KG don't seem to do well in Dorne..

That 'of the night' line only seems odd when it's quoted out of context, it's a direct corollary to what Myrcella said about Arthur Dayne being of the morning - he's pitting himself as Arthur's polar opposite

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

I hope he dies screaming for what he did to Myrcella

[Amoracchius]

Rhaeghar would have known about Ned's decency and honor, as he was famous for it and besides he'd been with his sister for over a year.

Except Ned wasn't famous at all yet. Ned is described as being in his mid-30s in AGOT and Robert's Rebellion was 17 years prior, meaning that he was only 17-19 when Rhaegar was departing for the Trident. At that point, Ned was simply the second son of a distant lord so I doubt he was famous for much of anything besides his last name.

As for him being with Lyanna for year, I'm not sure that guarantees anything either. Ned had been serving as Jon Arryn's ward in the Vale for years while Lyanna remained in Winterfell. Moreover, Lyanna was known to be close to Benjen, not Ned, so I'm not sure that she could have vouched for her brother's honor or personality or how he would respond to the current situation. War, strife, and stress are known to change people; even if Rhaegar and Lyanna thought Ned was honorable before the war, they had good reason to be wary of what he would be like during/after it.

[Borsabil]

Except Ned wasn't famous at all yet. Ned is described as being in his mid-30s in AGOT and Robert's Rebellion was 17 years prior, meaning that he was only 17-19 when Rhaegar was departing for the Trident. At that point, Ned was simply the second son of a distant lord so I doubt he was famous for much of anything besides his last name.

As for him being with Lyanna for year, I'm not sure that guarantees anything either. Ned had been serving as Jon Arryn's ward in the Vale for years while Lyanna remained in Winterfell. Moreover, Lyanna was known to be close to Benjen, not Ned, so I'm not sure that she could have vouched for her brother's honor or personality or how he would respond to the current situation. War, strife, and stress are known to change people; even if Rhaegar and Lyanna thought Ned was honorable before the war, they had good reason to be wary of what he would be like during/after it.

By the time Rhaegar left the ToJ Ned was the leader of Robert's armies and a Lord Paramount. Ned had been at war for long enough to gain a reputation, and from what we know of him I'm sure he wouldn't have been allowing the raping of women or the murder of children. Besides what choice did Rhaegar have? If he died it meant that the war was lost, who else could he trust to look after his kid and lover? Send them to Essos in exile? Nowhere in Westeros would be safe. Also how did Ned find out where Lyanna was, clearly someone close to Rhaegar told him.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

As an aside to the original topic, in my opinion the Westeros view of Ned being a paragon of honour comes from his reaction to Robert and Rhaegars dead children. Ned and Robert had a massive falling out over whether or not it was right for those kids to be killed, in front of men from the courts of over half the major houses in the kingdom. I can't really prove that's why people see Ned as honourable, but as far as I can tell that would be the biggest reason for Southrons to see him as such.

But back on topic, Darkstar is a pretty cool guy etc.

[Amoracchius]

By the time Rhaegar left the ToJ Ned was the leader of Robert's armies and a Lord Paramount. Ned had been at war for long enough to gain a reputation, and from what we know of him I'm sure he wouldn't have been allowing the raping of women or the murder of children. Besides what choice did Rhaegar have? If he died it meant that the war was lost, who else could he trust to look after his kid and lover? Send them to Essos in exile? Nowhere in Westeros would be safe. Also how did Ned find out where Lyanna was, clearly someone close to Rhaegar told him.

First, a minor point, Ned wasn't made the leader of Robert's forces until after Robert was injured at the Trident. Beyond that, I'm not sure we know exactly when Rhaegar left the ToJ but, looking at the timeline of events, it must have been fairly early in the war. Remember, Rhaegar had to get from Dorne to KL and then from KL to the Riverlands in time for the Battle of the Trident. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ned and the Stark host didn't see any action until the Battle of Bells. Given how close Stoney Sept is to the Trident and how far away the ToJ is, it seems likely to me that when Rhaegar left Lyanna, the Battle of the Bells hadn't even been fought yet, meaning that, at that point in time, Ned's reputation as a war leader and lord would have been that of an untested teenager, just like Robb's before the Whispering Wood.

As for someone close to Rhaegar telling Ned about the ToJ, I agree it's a possibility, but given how little info we have about what Ned was doing in between the lifting of the Siege of Storm's End and when he got to the ToJ, I'm not willing to jump to that conclusion.

[Theon_the_original]

I very much wish to see how Darkstar plays out. Yes there has been a lot of hype and not much in feats. I like the Red Viper character very much he was a bad ass and I was upset he died against the mountain but that death was important in setting up Dorne vs. Lannister.

I don't believe Dark Star intended to kill Mycella, Perhaps he is working for Doran and was instructed not to kill her and his sadist nature decided to take her ear off.

I feel he has a much more important role in the series based on either/both, of who he is or he has Dawn and Dawn maybe Lightbringer. We shall see how this pans out.

Theon

[The Taxman]

I very much wish to see how Darkstar plays out. Yes there has been a lot of hype and not much in feats. I like the Red Viper character very much he was a bad ass and I was upset he died against the mountain but that death was important in setting up Dorne vs. Lannister.

I don't believe Dark Star intended to kill Mycella, Perhaps he is working for Doran and was instructed not to kill her and his sadist nature decided to take her ear off.

I feel he has a much more important role in the series based on either/both, of who he is or he has Dawn and Dawn maybe Lightbringer. We shall see how this pans out.

Theon

Never really bought all the Red Viper hype. People were even saying that he could be one of the men that could best Jamie Lannister... Which is pretty funny seeing as his tactics is based around poisoning his opponents and even then he got bested by the Mountain.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Never really bought all the Red Viper hype. People were even saying that he could be one of the men that could best Jamie Lannister... Which is pretty funny seeing as his tactics is based around poisoning his opponents and even then he got bested by the Mountain.

Come on, thats disingenuous. He may have been killed by the Mountain, but the fight was hugely one-sided. The hype of Oberyn exists because it's GRRM who hyped him. It's not like how some people hype up Ned or Robb or Jon as swordsmen who are largely said to be average or slightly above (in fact Neds skill with a sword is only ever shown in Sansa memory of him getting trashed by Bronze Yohn). Oberyn is said to be the victor of a large number of one on one duels because he's a brilliant fighter, and that's proven in the duel with the Mountain. Using poisons is just his extra thing if he wants to make sure his enemy dies, and the poison in the fight with the Mountain was largely irrelevant. The Mountain was brought down by his wounds, not the poison (which I keep recalling was a slow-working poison that effectively coagulated the blood, but I may be wrong).

[The Taxman]

Don't recalling anyone ever saying he was a brilliant fighter. They said he was dangerous because he had mysterious tactics. Nobody could ever confirm if he poisoned his opponents.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Don't recalling anyone ever saying he was a brilliant fighter.

That's fine, because you saw him fight first hand against one of the more feared and successful warriors in Westeros. But from Tyrion:

“His Grace will be most honored to have the counsel of a warrior as renowned as Prince Oberyn of Dorne,” said Tyrion

He had soldiered in the Disputed Lands across the narrow sea, riding with the Second Sons for a time before forming his own company. His tourneys, his battles, his duels, his horses, his carnality...

He's known for more than just poisoning his blade, as Tyrion or Tywin comments at some point. He certainly survived well enough through it all until the Mountain.

[The Marquis de Leech]

If GRRM has decided that Darkstar is a badass with a blade, he is. This is not like morality where the reader is free to judge for himself.

Relative martial skill is a quality that exists exclusively within the mind of the author.

So if Martin said in an interview that Hot Pie is the greatest swordsman in Westeros, we'd be forced to accept it?

Show don't tell. What matters is not what is in the author's head, but rather what is there on the page as evidence. Unfortunately, the actual text portrays Darkstar as a prat, which rather contradicts the suggestion that he is the most dangerous man in Dorne.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

So if Martin said in an interview that Hot Pie is the greatest swordsman in Westeros, we'd be forced to accept it?

Thats sort of how stories work, you know. The author says something about his fictional world, and we accept it as fact. It's called the word of god. The Blackfish is accepted as a good swordsman based on a single line of text; there's a good 4 or 5 times as much text devoted to Darkstar being 'dangerous'.