Fantasy Pet Peeves

[Jacen]

Here's a great list of movie/tv/book cliches that one often finds in fantasy:

http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

[Bazzlebane]

My own pet peeve is the use of overtly modern language in a fantasy setting. It's a jarring when a fantasy character says something like, 'he's full of shit' or 'it's not big deal' or 'no problem!'.

While you might be right about those particular expressions, shit is not a modern word (nor is fuck or many of our other swear words).

[Jacen]

Bazzlebane.. Not only are they quite old words but ... I'd much rather have the character's saying fuck and shit etc. rather then a stupid made up curse, "bloody and bloody ashes" comes to mind.

The use of language is a difficult issue for me to understand in regards to fantasy, and it ties right in with suspension of disbelief. Books are written in one language but the peoples described certaintly aren't speaking that same language. So what are we reading? A translation? Who knows? Should the writer aim for readability or authenticity (and what the hell is that, in this case?). This issue is hard for me to wrap around. Another example is say in a movie you have a Russian character in an American movie. They either have the guy spout out Russian with subtitles, or talk in English with a Russian accent. Which is better?

I think GRRM is good at this juggling act. His prose lacks modern words and phrases, putting you in the Medieval-ish asoif world. On the other hand, he writes for a modern audience. I doubt we would like the books if it was full of thee's and thou's and the rest was Shakespear-era english.

[Black Dow]

On another note, I understand that readers do get tired of the cliches....but, at the same time, when reading threads like this on this board, and other boards, I'm always a bit puzzled by posts that go something like, 'I don't like wizards, I don't like elves and dwarves, I don't like quasi-european-medieval settings, I don't want to read anything else about Dark Lords, and I sure don't want to see another dragon"....

I'm always wondering why someone who posts something similar to this is reading fantasy in the first place. I much appreciate authors like Martin and Williams and Bakker who turn certain cliches on their head, and do things a bit different, etc, but if I am flat out wanting not to read about wizards or knights or elves, I can always go pick up the latest Grisham novel.

[Jacen]

Very good point Fisherman.

It's a balancing act or we are reading the wrong genre.

[Underfoot]

My own pet peeve is the use of overtly modern language in a fantasy setting. It's a jarring when a fantasy character says something like, 'he's full of shit' or 'it's not big deal' or 'no problem!'.

I think he means the actually phrase. I hightly doubt that Queen Elizabeth I or Julius Ceasar would have said "it's not a big deal". That phrase is entirely too modern.

[Mad Monkey]

It is a good point, but I must point out that there is no requirement that fantasy contain quasi-medievel European settings, dragons, elves, dwarves, and wizards. It's possible to leave a few of them out or write something completely unrelated that can still be considered fantasy.

[Talyn]

I'm resurrecting this thread because I've just come across a quite funny Guide to Writing Fantasy - it's a bit Tolkien-specific but I'm sure plenty of the points listed are commonplace in the Eragon/Tairy/Dragonlance area of the genre...

5. Create the Land

The first thing the Motley Bunch must do is travel some phenomenal distance through an assortment of vastly different terrains and climates. All Fantasy Lands have every conceivable form of climate and landform - mountains, deserts, swamps, glaciers, forests - arranged randomly across the landscape contrary to any known principles of geography or ecology.

This is one of the things that I find most irritating as well. It helps when there is some reason given why it looks like it does, even if it is something that the author just came up with.

[Black Dow]

It is a good point, but I must point out that there is no requirement that fantasy contain quasi-medievel European settings, dragons, elves, dwarves, and wizards. It's possible to leave a few of them out or write something completely unrelated that can still be considered fantasy.

You're right, and I understand that writers like Mieville and Duncan do that and do it well. But that's not my cup of tea as far as fantasy; I prefer the 'epic' fantasy and in that, it's more difficult to avoid the cliches.

But it can be done. For example, Bakker has the medieval style setting, but the typical Western European culture has been largely decimated 2000 years ago, and what remains of civilization is largely a Meditarrean/Byzantine/Arabic hybrid type of culture. He's got a sort of equivalent to the elves but they're a bit...off. He's got the hero of prophecy- who happens to be a robotic, heartless bastard. The true hero of the story, if there is one, not the hero of prophecy or the handsome farm boy/prince but instead is a 48 year old sorcerer who is prone to fits of doubt and despair, and who is fat to boot. And the 'Dark Lord'...we don't even know yet whether he is the true evil force or just a tool of his minions...

I guess what I am saying...it's hard to write fantasy, at least 'epic fantasy' without having some of the traditional elements...the trick is to it without resorting to the cliches; or to take the cliches and turn them on their head.

[swedeheadchris]

I actually really like Feist's books (or rather, I have a fondness for them) Magician was great and very anti-cliché as pointed out. (And it's never really OBVIOUSLY anti-cliché either, it just naturally subverts the cliché) Silverthorn and Darkness at Sethanon do the cliché fantasy stuff pretty well. I rather liked Prince Of the Blood in a light-hearted non-serious way, same thing with King's Buccaneer, and both Shadow of A Dark Queen and Rise of a Merchant Prince had promise.

But damn, he ruined it in Rage of a Demon King. The Valheru-as-to-alien-to-coexist-with-man villains was pretty cool, the Mad God? Not so much.

After that it has been pretty much crap. Midkemia started out as a roleplaying world though, but I'm still damn surprised he never licenced it. (apart from the computer games) it seems like a fun place to RP in.

There have been plans to licence it, but...

"From the Midkemia Press website August 2007

The latest negotiations for a d20 version of Midkemia have followed the pattern of the others and fallen apart. At this time there is no plan to do a d20 version but this could change at any time depending on interest from 3rd parties to license the product line or enough interest internally to do the work. More here as it is developed."

And Talyn, I found your post funny. I've come across that somewhere else. I like the bit where it says something like: "Fairy tales are great because they teach us that people who are ugly are like that, because they are evil"

[BranTheBuilder]

In T.V. and movies any T**T that spins a sword over their wrist. No t.v. director has learnt the the adage stick them with the pointy end.

while most filmed sword work is entirely fictional the, "stick them with the pointy end" technique is not entirely right either... it all depends on the type of sword used, the armour of the setting and the users skill with the weapon.

NB it takes a very long time to actually become any good with weapons.

[Talyn]

And Talyn, I found your post funny. I've come across that somewhere else. I like the bit where it says something like: "Fairy tales are great because they teach us that people who are ugly are like that, because they are evil"

Just because the hero is ugly doesn't mean that it is a good story. I have tead several books were this was the case and they were just bad. Thankfully I have forgoten what they were called.

Every Fantasy Land has a Dark Enemy, an almost omnipotent ArchVillain who is trying to utterly destroy it. It is not clear how the ArchVillain benefits from this. This Villain always has access to vast armies which require no food, payment or other provisioning and can travel thousands of mile and lay siege to cities without any need for a catering corps. For all this, the Enemy is completely dependant on some insignificant object such as a ring or a piece of rock for his power.

I liked this part as well. Just once I wish that the enemys army was defeated due to a lack of food and not in some great battle. I also found the part about charater names to be rather accurate especially with some books.

[Talyn]

Oops

[Talyn]

Oops

[Galactus]

I've spent a lot of times at Tvtropes.org and it does an incredibly job of pointing out clichés (although it isn't very fantasy-focused)

Now, the thing is that after reading a lot of it you start to notice that most of these tropes are, literally unavoidable: If you avoid ALL of them you won't have much of a story.

[Dycedarg]

How about Evil Villains who do not know the meaning of subtlety. I mean, if you don't want a bunch of heroes crashing your party before your secret plans are complete, don't take up residence in the Black Fortress of Terror or employ DoomDeathBlood the Dread Dragon as your guardian.

Oh, and if I see another story involving free-range ninjas I'm probably going to turn arsonist.