Stannis's Decision to have Renly killed (long post).

[Eating My Wings]

And I don't buy the excuse that Stannis did not know what Melisandre would do. He knew exactly what he was bargaining for, and in that respect, he's just as guilty as if he had stabbed Renly himself.

But how would he have known the exact details of the deed? From Mel. And why should she have told him when lying to him (as she does regularly) and denying her involvement in the assassination benefits her much more?

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Sorry, this post was an accidental quote with no

Content

[Ser Edmure Tully]

That's disgusting. Murdering your own brother for a crown and because of blatantly unfair and arbitrary law...

A family member who attempts to take everything I own under the letter of the law, who insults my children, who plans to kill me himself, ceases to be a family member.

By their actions they cut all familial ties. Renly was a bully, and he chose his own fate.

[shiola]

I didn't think it was that jarring. It was already established that the red witch has power; and that moreover, a guy like Stannis was convinced of it. There was always a sense foreboding about what exactly she brought to Stannis's arsenal that inspired his confidence, and we got a glimpse of it through the shadow children.

OT, Renly was a massive tool and set a very dangerous precedent. He had it coming IMO.

I just can't get over it. There's a difference between having power or performing sorcery and bullshit plot-fulfilling. I personally believe the shadow assassins are the latter.

In any case, Stannis having Renly killed in any form wasn't unspeakable. It would have been better for PR purposes if it had been in a battle, face-to-face. But this way had less bloodshed.

[Mad Monkey]

A family member who attempts to take everything I own under the letter of the law, who insults my children, who plans to kill me himself, ceases to be a family member.

Is 'letter of the law' really an argument that Stannis would want to rely upon here? By rights the Throne they are fighting over could just as easily belong to Daenerys, the only living issue of the king who Stannis helped overthrow or Joffrey, the only man who the last king explicitly named his heir in his last will (and it's already established that a lord can name an heir that isn't his own child).

Renly was trying to steal the throne from his brother, and I agree that Stannis was right to fight back, but it's kind of silly to talk about laws here when Stannis himself helped steal the throne from Aerys, and Aerys himself inherited the throne from his ancestors who forged it using fire and blood. If anything, Renly's usurpation was continuing a proud family legacy of taking things by force when you think you would do a better job than the person who is 'technically' next-in-line.

[E-Ro]

Stannis winning the throne would increase the chance of this happening, any ambitious uncle or younger brother would feel he has a chance, Claiming his nephews or brothers aren't legitimate is the oldest trick in the book in such cases. Stannis had no proof for his claims.

Ummm, oldest trick in the book? Can you site some historical examples of this happening, or examples from the history of the seven kingdoms in the books? Your claim the stannis winning would make this a common occurrence is patently false, and based on, well, based on nothing really. Stannis has the evidence of every known bastard of roberts being just like him, and ever single baratheon lannister marriage going back generations having black hair.

That's disgusting. Murdering your own brother for a crown and because of blatantly unfair and arbitrary law...

Its more the murdering him for a crown. Its murdering him to uphold the law, to keep what is rightfully yours, and to prevent numerous future wars as a result of the precedent of might and disregarding blood claims. You can sit here and tell everyone that if a sibling of yours came to you and demanded that you break one of the oldest most sacred and important laws in your country, at a direct expense to yourself and your rights that you would go along with it. But the rest of us retain the right to make our own choices, so why don't we cut this condescending "holier then thou" bullshit.

[Silent_Hero]

Still doesn't make it morally right. And you're wrong, there are rules in war, e.g. declarations of war and truces and so on. Of course, that doen't mean that everyone respects them..

Well sure there rules or should I say "guidelines" but none of those apply to Westeros besides the POW but that isn't much, and there no rules on assassination, it's just like ordering an artillery strike or a cavalry charge or a retreat it's pretty much military 101 that's why Renly has his Rainbow Guard guarding his tent to keep away assassins and Robb has his Highborn Honor Guard and the King has the KingGuard.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Is 'letter of the law' really an argument that Stannis would want to rely upon here? By rights the Throne they are fighting over could just as easily belong to Daenerys, the only living issue of the king who Stannis helped overthrow or Joffrey, the only man who the last king explicitly named his heir in his last will (and it's already established that a lord can name an heir that isn't his own child).

Renly was trying to steal the throne from his brother, and I agree that Stannis was right to fight back, but it's kind of silly to talk about laws here when Stannis himself helped steal the throne from Aerys, and Aerys himself inherited the throne from his ancestors who forged it using fire and blood. If anything, Renly's usurpation was continuing a proud family legacy of taking things by force when you think you would do a better job than the person who is 'technically' next-in-line.

Aerys forfeited his right to the throne by being a tyrant, and breaking the social contract he had with his Lords.

A new Baratheon Dynasty was installed with the consent of both the STAB alliance and the beaten Loyalist forces.

Stannis is the heir to that dynasty and rightful King, by the letter of the law.

What Renly is doing is no better than what the Greyjoys or Dothraki do, taking something he has no right to, solely for his own advantage and gain.

[chrisdaw]

That's like saying: Oh, my younger brother stole my favourite pen. I'm older, so that gives me an excuse to fuck him up. NO.

No it's not, it's nothing like that, at all.

[Mad Monkey]

Aerys forfeited his right to the throne by being a tyrant, and breaking the social contract he had with his Lords.

A new Baratheon Dynasty was installed with the consent of both the STAB alliance and the beaten Loyalist forces.

Stannis is the heir to that dynasty and rightful King, by the letter of the law.

What Renly is doing is no better than what the Greyjoys or Dothraki do, taking something he has no right to, solely for his own advantage and gain.

So, theoretically, if Renly had killed Stannis in that battle and conquered KL and gotten oaths of fealty from the other lords, he would have been the right and lawful king then?

I guess I'm a little fuzzy about how any of this is different from "might makes right". Robert's dynasty was only installed because he defeated the loyalists and overthrew the king. While I definitely agree with this action, the only reason it worked was because Robert and his allies overpowered Aerys and his allies. If Robert had had fewer supporters, or if he or one of his soldiers had made some tactical errors, or if he had slipped in the mud on the Trident and gotten skewered by Rhaegar... I guess I just think that the bad precedent that other posters were discussing was set by Robert, not Renly. Robert was the one who thought, "Hey, if the king sucks, let's just kill him and take over" first. Logically, if you're down with that in the first place it's hard to change your mind now when the shoe is on the other foot, so to speak.

I think Stannis made a hard call and it was probably the best one that he could have made given the circumstances (let's be honest -- if Renly HAD bent the knee to him the Tyrells would have abandoned the Baratheons both and taken most of their bannermen with them, because the only reason Mace sided with Renly was to make his daughter a queen; siding with Stannis for him would be a wasted effort since Stannis was already married). I just don't see how either of them can talk about laws and succession as if it's something that they respect when the reality of the Law of Conquest notion is that "might makes right" and the winner retroactively gets to decide who was legal all along.

[MotherAnduin]

No it's not, it's nothing like that, at all.

Of course it is like that. Stealing a pen is comparable to treason and attempted murder.

[David Selig]

Ummm, oldest trick in the book? Can you site some historical examples of this happening, or examples from the history of the seven kingdoms in the books? Your claim the stannis winning would make this a common occurrence is patently false, and based on, well, based on nothing really. Stannis has the evidence of every known bastard of roberts being just like him, and ever single baratheon lannister marriage going back generations having black hair.

Only the biggest succession in Westeros - the Blackfyre rebellion.

Historical examples off the top of my head - Richard III claimed Edward IV and his children were illegitimate. Other royals accused of the same in this era were Charles VII and Joanna of Castille. It was a very common strategy to justify your claims and discredit political opponents.

Its more the murdering him for a crown. Its murdering him to uphold the law, to keep what is rightfully yours, and to prevent numerous future wars as a result of the precedent of might and disregarding blood claims. You can sit here and tell everyone that if a sibling of yours came to you and demanded that you break one of the oldest most sacred and important laws in your country, at a direct expense to yourself and your rights that you would go along with it.

Sacred law? Stannis had no problems breaking this "sacred law" when it benefited him in Aerys's day and then again going against it based on minimal evidence and without real proof when Robert died. Even if Aerys and Rhaegar broke the feudal contract, why didn't Mr "Law is Sacred" support Vyserys for the throne? Because he's a massive hypocrite.

Don't you think that law is very unfair and arbitrary? Why are you defending it? By the same token what Aeruys did was right and just, he was the king, he had the right to execute whoever he wanted according to the law.

[Lucidize]

But how would he have known the exact details of the deed? From Mel. And why should she have told him when lying to him (as she does regularly) and denying her involvement in the assassination benefits her much more?

So, do you think that Mel acted on her own accord?

Stannis in Clash of Kings, after Renly's death. He tells Davos that Mel has seen Ser Courtenays death as she has seen Renly's:

"(...) Ser Courtenay will be dead within the day. Melisandre has seen it in the flames of the future. His death and the manner of it."

And then later, talking about Mel: "aye, they whisper... While she serves." "serves how?" Davos asked, dreading the answer. "as needed."

Sounds to me as if Mel is acting on Stannis' orders and as if Stannis knows what

is going on. Does he choose to ignore the details? Probably, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't know what's happening. Stannis isn't stupid. Even Davos (who's isn't in on Mel's plans, unlike Stannis) understands as much:

Davos says: "(...) Surely there are other ways.Cleaner ways." And when Stannis tells him that "the flames do not lie", Davos thinks "Yet they require me to make them true."

Don't you think that the same thought must have crossed Stannis' mind at some point? He obviously knows that he was involved, that's what leads to his nightmares later on. I can't find the passage right now.

[Dragonstoned]

[snip]

Luis you post very interestingly about Stannis, but how do you tally what you say with what Martin has said

http://www.amazon.co...TF8&docId=49161

And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

when a quick search will turn up such definitions for 'righteous' as 'morally right or justifiable; virtuous', and synonyms as 'just, right, upright, rightful, fair, honest' ?

edit: and fellow Stanfans who say they would kill their brother in that situation need to think about it again and seriously - the point is that Stannis did not intend to kill his brother and only realises afterwards what he has effectively done, and look at the effect it has on him - that is an unspeakably heartless thing to say you would do

[Som Tin Wong]

...and to prevent numerous future wars as a result of the precedent of might and disregarding blood claims. You can sit here and tell everyone that if a sibling of yours came to you and demanded that you break one of the oldest most sacred and important laws in your country,

To Renly, and to everyone else who wasn't Stannis, both the Baratheon brothers were usurpers. Saying 'my nephew is a bastard' is not proof that he is. There is no evidence that Stannis killed Renly because he was concerned that Renly might set whatever precedent you're talking about. If anything Stannis was setting the precedent that you can claim your nephew is a bastard without providing proof and then start killing the people who disagree with you.

Renly knew Stannis wouldn't step aside for him. By declaring in the first place he put both brothers in a position where one of them was going to become a kinslayer.

snip

This also applies to Stannis. And you're making it sound like it was obvious that Joffrey was not Robert's son when to any normal person, the fact that someone looks like his mother and not his father is perfectly normal.

[The Drunkard]

To Renly, and to everyone else who wasn't Stannis, both the Baratheon brothers were usurpers. Saying 'my nephew is a bastard' is not proof that he is. There is no evidence that Stannis killed Renly because he was concerned that Renly might set whatever precedent you're talking about. If anything Stannis was setting the precedent that you can claim your nephew is a bastard without providing proof and then start killing the people who disagree with you.

If Stannis won, history would be written to reflect the truth of his claims. Joffrey would go down as a bastard with no claim to the throne, and Stannis the rightful king that ensured the survival of the Baratheon dynasty.

Renly couldn't (and obviously didn't care to) validate his own taking of the throne in the same way.

[David Selig]

If Stannis won, history would be written to reflect the truth of his claims. Joffrey would go down as a bastard with no claim to the throne, and Stannis the rightful king that ensured the survival of the Baratheon dynasty.

Renly couldn't (and obviously didn't care to) validate his own taking of the throne in the same way.

If Renly had won, the maesters and his courtiers would've come up with justification too and history would be written that way. That's what always happens. One obvious choice there would be to proclaim that Stannis had no right to the throne because he was following a foreign god. But just like in Stannis' case, many people won't buy it.

[The Drunkard]

If Renly had won, the maesters and his courtiers would've come up with justification too and history would be written that way. That's what always happens. One obvious choice there would be to proclaim that Stannis had no right to the throne because he was following a foreign god. But just like in Stannis' case, many people won't buy it.

Given Renly's very flippant opinion on Robert's own validity, I highly doubt he would put much effort into defaming Stannis' claim. The maesters may try to justify it, but as you said, many people won't buy it. Stannis, however, is very insistent on people believing the truth of what he says, and has a wealth of available evidence to make Joffrey out to be a bastard rather than a Baratheon.

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

I still consider it one of the Baratheon brothers' greatest follies that they decided to take care of each other first before going against KL. Stannis may have felt the need to take care of a Usurper claiming his throne, but he did it at the expense of his ability to take care of the Usurper actually sitting on his throne... especially when he lost the Tyrells (which might have happened anyway I suppose, unless he let Renly become king). And Renly... I still have no idea what Renly really hoped to accomplish. He probably had more plans for the coronation ball than he did for battle.

I'm re-reading ACOK, and I'll be getting to this part soon enough, so I can remind myself of the reasons they never behaved sensibly (I'm recalling that Stannis targeted Renly because of the "King's Blood" in Edric Storm and his own stubbornness, but I'm forgetting what Renly was doing twiddling his thumbs instead of marching on KL and why they didn't try a different approach). I would agree with the original post that Stannis gave Renly a fair offer and simply did what he had to do.

[David Selig]

Given Renly's very flippant opinion on Robert's own validity, I highly doubt he would put much effort into defaming Stannis' claim. The maesters may try to justify it, but as you said, many people won't buy it. Stannis, however, is very insistent on people believing the truth of what he says, and has a wealth of available evidence to make Joffrey out to be a bastard rather than a Baratheon.

What's that wealth of evidence? As I've said too often lately, Stannis himself admitted that all he had was that Edric looked more like Robert unlike the royal kids.

Yet you have no proof. Of this incest. No more than you did a year ago.”

“There’s proof of a sort at Storm’s End. Robert’s bastard. The one he fathered on my wedding night, in the very bed they’d made up for me and my bride. Delena was a Florent, and a maiden when he took her, so Robert acknowledged the babe. Edric Storm, they call him. He is said to be the very image of my brother. If men were to see him, and then look again at Joffrey and Tommen, they could not help but wonder, I would think.”