Stannis's Decision to have Renly killed (long post).

[Antler's Fury]

Math. Take it immediately after sex with Robert, unless she's already showing signs of pregnancy.

But if she had sex with Jaime before having sex with Robert, then she could well be aborting his by accident. Plus, I'm sure that the crude abortifactants of this era were not always 100% effective.

[IRON BANK]

Cant fault stannis for having Renly killed, Stannis is responsible for his death being the commander. Renly is responsible for his death when challenging Stannis and his rites. Catelyn Stark was the only voice of reason within the group if they all would have teamed up and not been Greedy this war could have ended quickly.

[Arcydas]

List of facts:

1.When Robert died, Renly was the first one to feel the impulse of usurping the throne. He asked Eddard Stark to take Joffrey and his family into custody and prevent them from gaining even more power in this struggle and finally the IT.

2.That means that Renly was more or less convinced that Joffrey was no rightful son of Robert, but illegitimate. Which again leaves us with two obligatory results: 1) renly accepted Joffrey's illegitimacy and styled himself king shortly afterwards, thus usurping the throne. . 2) He didn't believe Joffrey was illegitimate, but due to his hate for the Lannisters he crowned himself, because he believed in his kingly abilities and in the power of high garden, which makes him a usurper again

3.Stannis, whether his deepest motive is justice or not, has to believe that he is the rightful king. Thus Renly is a usurper. What does Stannis do? He offers his brother great terms, but Renly refuses, because he has the bigger army. That's why Stannis "can't defeat his brother on the field". He says that himself. Melisandre, a sorceress from Asshai, casting a shadow baby even underlines one of the central themes of the story... the return of magic and the crumbling of the former political view of the world.

4.Stannis COULD have said "I don't care for the laws of Westeros, i'll bend the knee to you, my royal brother"... But does that really makes sense for Stannis? I know that's what i'd have done, because i don't prioritise the idea of the line of succesion so high as Stannis does.

5.Renly was ready to kill Stannis as well. The problem simply is : You have one man, Stannis, who disregards compromise, and a man who lives on compromise, Renly. No solution can be found in such a situation, that's why one of them had to die.

6.Let's assume Stannis had not been the rightful heir, Renly would still have been an usurper, and had been killed, as well as Stannis.

[David Selig]

List of facts:

1.When Robert died, Renly was the first one to feel the impulse of usurping the throne. He asked Eddard Stark to take Joffrey and his family into custody and prevent them from gaining even more power in this struggle and finally the IT.

2.That means that Renly was more or less convinced that Joffrey was no rightful son of Robert, but illegitimate.

Huh? It doesn't mean this at all.

Renly was just smart enough to know that Ned needed to have the underage king in his control if he was to establish himself as regent against Cersei and Tywin's objections. It doesn't show any impulse to usurp the throne.

[Draco_Dracul]

Huh? It doesn't mean this at all.

Renly was just smart enough to know that Ned needed to have the underage king in his control if he was to establish himself as regent against Cersei and Tywin's objections. It doesn't show any impulse to usurp the throne.

I think they are going by show Renly, but if suggested that we use the show to say Stannis willfully and with full knowledge had his brother killed it wouldn't count.

[Jevans]

The kinslayer is cursed in the eyes of gods and men. It is known.

[digiFemme]

Well, Stannis is not a 'nice' guy in the usual sense of the word but he's a lot better than most of the characters in this series. And he's the only one who seems to care about what happens in the Wall, the only one who seems to be aware of the bigger battle with the nonhuman creatures that have nothing to do with the fight for the Iron Throne which is petty in comparison.

This is a world where people use magic in battle. Dany uses or will use her dragons and Stannis has the shadow babies. It's hardly the usual realistic medieval scenario where they only use soldiers fair and square.

[LuisDantas]

I very much doubt Renly knew or guessed Joffrey not to be Robert's son. At least until he heard of Stannis' rumours, of course.

Whether he did or not would not excuse Stannis in the least, either.

[Kate Poem]

I very much doubt Renly knew or guessed Joffrey not to be Robert's son. At least until he heard of Stannis' rumours, of course.

Whether he did or not would not excuse Stannis in the least, either.

He was Traitor of the Crown then. He wanted throw his nephew from the Iron Throne and sit on it.

Why?

Because he wanted sit on it.

Why?

Because he wanted it, it's all.

Stannis knew Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are Jaime's and Cersei's bastards. After Robert's death, as his only living trueborn heir, he become the King of Seven Kingdoms.

Stannis wanted sit on Iron Throne and rule Westeros.

Why?

Stannis knew Joffrey, Myrcella and Stannis... etc. He had reasons. He had plans. He knew, what he wants do as the King.

[lulu_pix]

I doubt Renly wouldve killed Stannis had the oppurtunity present itself he probably wouldve just put stanis under house arrest or something.

Stannis however........using shadow babies and black magic to assinate your brother in a secret cowarldy way is not a good decision in my book.

Stannis is a Kinslayer which is the worst of crimes.

[Lee-Sensei]

Stannis killed Renly. Renly was going to kill Stannis. Stannis is a kinslayer and cursed in the eyes of Gods and men, but what of it? He had a choice to make and he chose to kill his treacherous, traitorous scheming brother. I can't falt him for that.

[lulu_pix]

Stannis killed Renly. Renly was going to kill Stannis. Stannis is a kinslayer and cursed in the eyes of Gods and men, but what of it? He had a choice to make and he chose to kill his treacherous, traitorous scheming brother. I can't falt him for that.

I dont think Renly wouldve killed Stannis.

Had Stannis Killed his brother on the battlefield than thers nothing wrong with it, but he did it in a secret through the use of dark magic from his evil Red Whore.

Really had it not been for Mels Vag than Renly wouldve won the IT and made concessions with Rob, but Stanis had to be all self righteous and was too proud to work with his brother.

[Kate Poem]

I dont think Renly wouldve killed Stannis.

You are wrong. Usurper Renly said "don't behead my brother's body", no "I want my brother alive." He said "Loras will bring me this pretty sword after the battle" no "Stannis must bend his knee and offer me his sword after the battle or I'll not show mercy." He said Stannis' right to IT does exist until his death and he knew Stannis' right is better.

[Lee-Sensei]

I dont think Renly wouldve killed Stannis.

Had Stannis Killed his brother on the battlefield than thers nothing wrong with it, but he did it in a secret through the use of dark magic from his evil Red Whore.

Really had it not been for Mels Vag than Renly wouldve won the IT and made concessions with Rob, but Stanis had to be all self righteous and was too proud to work with his brother.

Why should he work with Renly? Why should he face Renly on the battlefield. Renly had way to many men on his side. He would have crushed Stannis, so Stannis did what he had to do. Why should Stannis have to make deals with Robb? Why should he work with his brother. Assuming that they all went against the Lannisters right away, Renly would be King. Stannis didn't have enough men to face him. Stannis was the rightful King. Renly, Robb and Balon should have bent the knee.

[A Man Has Said]

I disagree with the premise of the OP - that Stannis consciously decided to kill Renly, at least the way he was killed.

It's true that Stannis had the intent to kill Renly, but he thought that was going to happen in daylight, on the battlefield. Melisandre never told him about the shadowbaby until after the fact, so the treachery is mostly on her. However, the way that it did happen shows that Melisandre is consciously manipulating and controlling Stannis, even to the point of making him do things he otherwise wouldn't. Stannis is unaware of the nature of Melisandre's magic until after Renly's assassination (but well before the murder of Cortnay Penrose.)

That said, it's equally true that Stannis did kill Renly. The shape the shadowbaby took was that of Stannis, Stannis 'dreamt' (obviously a magical dream, not an ordinary one) of the incident as it happened, seeing all the details. It was probably Stannis' intent that directed the shadowbaby's actions.

As far as treachery, a careful reading of the chapter that the shadowbaby assassination takes place makes plain that Renly was killed before dawn while a truce agreement was in existence between his forces and Stannis' army. IIRC, there's even a passage where it is suggested to Renly that he make a surprise attack before dawn, catching Stannis' forces unawares. Renly of course rejects the idea as being too dishonourable.

[Lee-Sensei]

^Of course it was "too dishonourable". Renly had the numbers. Renly would have crushed Stannis. He didn't have to attack early. If their positions were switched, I have little doubt that Renly would have Stannis killed.

[Arrax]

^Of course it was "too dishonourable". Renly had the numbers. Renly would have crushed Stannis. He didn't have to attack early. If their positions were switched, I have little doubt that Renly wouldn't have Stannis killed.

Numbers don't explain it. He could've saved some/alot of his men if he had cheated, and attacked Stannis ahead of schedule. He didn't. Clearly Tarly and Rowan would've done it even with superior numbers.

[Mad Lady Lothston]

Eh, I don't care if you're brother is going to take your birthright, or whatever. Killing him, especially in the cowardly way that Stannis did, is a pretty shitty move in my book. I mean, you can justify it all you want, and it was a good strategic maneuver, but that doesn't mean it was moral by any means.

[devilrob6]

I don't understand why so many people think that Stannis ordered Renly's assassination while he clearly had no idea what was going on. There is a lot of evidence in the text to show this, and no evidence that he ordered Melisandre to kill Renly. He knew that Melisandre has seen Renly's death her fires, but he didn't know how. Off course he didn't mind the outcome, but he didn't order it. He probably had a better understanding of what happened when he did order the assassination of Cortnay Penrose. And moral or not, Melisandre and later also Stannis did what was needed to assure victory without losing a big part of their army (but gaining a bigger army instead).

And for justification..what about saving thousands of lives by avoiding a battle and a siege by killing only two people. I think only 5 people died there, three of which were needlessly killed by Loras.

[Lee-Sensei]

Numbers don't explain it. He could've saved some/alot of his men if he had cheated, and attacked Stannis ahead of schedule. He didn't. Clearly Tarly and Rowan would've done it even with superior numbers.

Of course numbers explains it. He didn't have to attack a head of schedule, because he knew that in an open battle he'd destroy Stannis. Renly doesn't care about being "honorable". If he did he wouldn't have been a usurper. Whichever way you look at it. If Renly thinks that Joffrey is Robert's son, he's trying to steal the throne from his nephew and the rightful King. If he believes that Joffrey is Cersei and Jaime's bastard, then he's trying to steal the throne from his brother and the rightful King.