Stannis's Decision to have Renly killed (long post).

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

I believe he said it to Davos, but that was still in Dragonstone.

Do you know when?

I think the reason he doesn't mention it to Renly because he could have Edric killed to prevent Stannis from getting his proof or so Stannis would have thought.

[Arrax]

Do you know when?

Cressen's prologue, ACOK

"Your words were blunt and strong."

"And true."

"And true. Yet you have no proof. Of this incest. No more than you did a year ago."

"Theres proof of a sort at Storms End. Roberts bastard. The one he fathered on my wedding night, in the very bed theyd made up for me and my bride. Delena was a Florent, and a maiden when he took her, so Robert acknowledged the babe. Edric Storm, they call him. He is said to be the very image of my brother. If men were to see him, and then look again at Joffrey and Tommen, they could not help but wonder, I would think."

"Yet how are men to see him, if he is at Storms End?"

Stannis drummed his fingers on the Painted Table. "It is a difficulty. One of many."

I think the reason he doesn't mention it to Renly because he could have Edric killed to prevent Stannis from getting his proof or so Stannis would have thought.

Hmm... Renly has lived with the boy for quite some time. Even Brienne remembers him. Would Stannis consider Renly that ruthless? Renly was pro-Targaryen kids assassination. I suppose it's possible.

[Draco_Dracul]

No not really. IIRC, Stannis fled only when Jon Arryn came down with a case of dead.

Which as far as he knew would move the target from him to Robert (there are two ways to stop a message permanently kill the sender or kill the recipient and the sender just left their reach). The only reason it didn't is that the Lannisters didn't actually know what Jon and Stannis were doing.

[LuisDantas]

Cressen's prologue, ACOK

Hmm... Renly has lived with the boy for quite some time. Even Brienne remembers him. Would Stannis consider Renly that ruthless? Renly was pro-Targaryen kids assassination. I suppose it's possible.

Everything is possible under the proper circunstances, but what are the odds in this case?

When push comes to shove, Edric's appearance is just this side of useless as evidence goes. His filiation is not in doubt, and reaffirming it is hardly the same as casting significant doubt in Joffrey's and Tommen's.

Even making the less generous assumptions possible about Renly's character, it would still be he running the risk of tarnishing his precious reputation with the stain of a child-killer and giving the impression that he had something to hide.

It is far safer and more reasonable, by any measure, to simply point out the obvious: Edric being Robert's child is no proof that Joffrey is not. Even Stannis himself, never one to fail to promote his own cause, can make no bolder statement than that "people will have to wonder".

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Renly was great. He inspired much love and loyalty.

[HMR]

Kinslayers are accursed in ASoIaF world as well as our own world.

Anyone who would kill someone from their own family is a mongrel, no matter the reason.

[Arrax]

It is far safer and more reasonable, by any measure, to simply point out the obvious: Edric being Robert's child is no proof that Joffrey is not. Even Stannis himself, never one to fail to promote his own cause, can make no bolder statement than that "people will have to wonder".

To me the question is whether Stannis could reasonably expect Renly to kill Edric Storm? Obviously he isn't a conclusive proof of anything, but he can still be deemed as a threat.

[David Selig]

To me the question is whether Stannis could reasonably expect Renly to kill Edric Storm? Obviously he isn't a conclusive proof of anything, but he can still be deemed as a threat.

Why would he be a threat? If Edric could help convince people that Joff is illegitimate, this would've benefited Renly too.

[Minsc]

Stannis had the same proof as much Ned and Jon had. Jon and Stannis both investigated together and reached the conclusion of Bastardy of Joffrey. Final nail in the coffin was to present Edric Storm, but well........... Renly happened.

No, he didn't. First, of all Ned's main and final proof was that Cersei admitted to the twincest to him. Moreover, if Stannis had all that absolute proof then he should have performed his duty and informed Robert. But, instead he hide in Dragonstone and waited for Robert to die before coming out with his claims.

Edric Storm wasn't any definite of the twincest.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

No, he didn't. First, of all Ned's main and final proof was that Cersei admitted to the twincest to him. Moreover, if Stannis had all that absolute proof then he should have performed his duty and informed Robert. But, instead he hide in Dragonstone and waited for Robert to die before coming out with his claims.

Edric Storm wasn't any definite of the twincest.

Nope.

Main Proof according to Stannis --- Edric and the bastards they investigated.

Main or Primary proof to Ned---- The same book both him and Jon had used but they found it not conclusive enough to tell Robert.

[Minsc]

Main Proof according to Stannis --- Edric and the bastards they investigated.

And yet Stannis didn't do his duty and instead hide at Dragonstone despite this definite proof.

Edric and the bastards only open up questions, it doesn't do anything to proof the twincest. Simply, it could be argued that formerly royal Lannister blood is strong enough to shine past the Baratheon blood.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

And yet Stannis didn't do his duty and instead hide at Dragonstone despite this definite proof.

What, you still on that, we had an entire thread on it and you were in the discussion too, i am not going there. :bang:

Edric and the bastards only open up questions, it doesn't do anything to proof the twincest. Simply, it could be argued that formerly royal Lannister blood is strong enough to shine past the Baratheon blood.

Well they can't do DNA testing, so this is next best thing only beaten by Cersei or Jaime's plead of being guilty.

[Minsc]

Well they can't do DNA testing, so this is next best thing only beaten by Cersei or Jaime's plead of being guilty.

That is why Ned and Jon's book comes in handy, which Stannis doesn't have.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

That is why Ned and Jon's book comes in handy, which Stannis doesn't have.

Not really no. The book is just re-affirming that the proof Stannis presented is correct.

It can be used as a secondary evidence. Jon thought the same which is why he directly didn't go to Robert with that.

Also Stannis must have known about the book, since he was in it with Arryn and he only escaped when Jon died.

[Nezzer]

Haha I love it how Stannis is the only character that is judged by his words instead of by his actions. If he started to say he's the most handsome man in the history of Westeros, the Stanstans would start ot defend that claim.

The biggest irony of the Stanstans is that they refuse to follow Stannis' most basic rule: a good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad the good. Just because Stannis did a great act of heroism, his fanatical fans forgive all his wrongs. He's my top favorite characters still, but I don't understand why people want their favorite characters to be perfect. Perfect characters with no faults are no fun at all. Jaime fans do the same thing all the time, even going as far as defending the attempted murder of Bran.

Renly's death was deserved, but it was a very dishonorable act. Stannis most likely knew what was going to happen, but he refused to admit it, both to Davos and to himself. He offered good terms to Renly because he knew Renly would never survive until dawn anyway, which was the deadline for his acceptance. If Renly accepted his terms, he would still have died. How does one cancel a shadowbaby? Melisandre was already "pregnant". Could her make an "abortion"? :lol:

I still defend Stannis's tactic in that case (although he should've been smarter to wait until Renly captured KL). However, I completely despise GRRM's usage of the shadowbaby, introducing a deus ex machina to the story we'd never heard about before in the precise moment where it would change the story completely. Every other usage of magic was built up with a lot of foreshadowing. GRRM might as well had made the red comet crash right over Renly's army.

Back to Stannis's honor, the one thing that almost made me truly dislike him was the Cortnay Penrose situation. Now that was a real cheap and cowardly move of his part. He refused to fight an old man in single combat and sent a shadowbaby to do the job for him without giving Penrose a single chance to defend himself. I bet that if Tywin were the one to off someone like the Blackfish with a shadowbaby to capture Riverrun, people would be use that against him in this board.

I won't even enter the subject about his hypocrisy, otherwise this post will never end. At any rate, Stanstans might think my arguments mean I despise Stannis, but don't get me wrong, because they are the exact reasons why I love him. He's a hypocritical asshole who saves the realm, that's why he's so much fun. Before saving the Watch, though, he was just another asshole with valid reasons me.

.

[Michael Stark Thenextwolf]

I have alot wrong with this. First Stannis didnt HAVE Renly killed, HE killed Renly and he knows it (kinslayer). Now Brienne a has a shitty story with or without the part from stannis and Renly. Loras has other stuff that you want to know more than anything to do with Renlys death. So maybe is not horrific but its still fucked, he cut his brothers neck and blood runs down his armour. Stan should have joined Renly and been had then he does all the work like he wants.

[Slavers Bay City Rollers]

People get on Stannis' back way to much for the death of Renly, it's so unfair.

He didn't even really understand what happened, though I think that it did begin to dawn on him afterwards.

Also, Renly was a complete and utter traitor, Stannis even offered to make him his heir and he turned that down because he's such a greedy git.

Lastly, the king is allowed to sanction the deaths of traitors, is he not? When justice can't be done with brute force it has to be done in other ways.

Case closed.

[Mr Smith]

My biggest problem with Stannis's murder of Renly (and it was murder, by anyone's definition), is the extent to which he rationalises it. He knows right from wrong, he knows what he's done, and yet he doesn't subject himself to the moral code that he declares everyone else should live by. And the argument that Stannis, as king, has the right to serve justice by any means necessary is incredibly morally floored, and if you can't work out why, its not worth explaining.

I would also point out that Stannis didn't have much of a choice. He had to kill Renly to have any chance of seizing the IT. So basically, the ends justify the means for him. Too bad thats directly contrary to his own philosophy (a good act does not wash out the bad). So to get around that, he tells himself that Renly's death was coming no matter what he did, blinding himself to the truth that he murdered his own brother.

In reference to the OP, I've never read anything more ridiculous. Arguing that Renly's death was good for the plot does absolutely nothing to redeem Stannis, or justify his actions.

[Arrax]

Why would he be a threat? If Edric could help convince people that Joff is illegitimate, this would've benefited Renly too.

In what way?

And if so, why then doesn't Stannis mention the boy at his parley with Renly?

[Grimbold]

I have alot wrong with this. First Stannis didnt HAVE Renly killed, HE killed Renly and he knows it (kinslayer).

Incoming flak!!!