Stannis's Decision to have Renly killed (long post).

[Chatty Duelist]

My biggest problem with Stannis's murder of Renly (and it was murder, by anyone's definition), is the extent to which he rationalises it. He knows right from wrong, he knows what he's done, and yet he doesn't subject himself to the moral code that he declares everyone else should live by. And the argument that Stannis, as king, has the right to serve justice by any means necessary is incredibly morally floored, and if you can't work out why, its not worth explaining.

I would also point out that Stannis didn't have much of a choice. He had to kill Renly to have any chance of seizing the IT. So basically, the ends justify the means for him. Too bad thats directly contrary to his own philosophy (a good act does not wash out the bad). So to get around that, he tells himself that Renly's death was coming no matter what he did, blinding himself to the truth that he murdered his own brother.

In reference to the OP, I've never read anything more ridiculous. Arguing that Renly's death was good for the plot does absolutely nothing to redeem Stannis, or justify his actions.

You obviously don't know the definition of murder:

1.

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Renly's death, was neither unlawful, nor premeditated.

[Baelor Swyft]

For Stannis to offer these terms at all is incredibly gracious of him.

I'm sure that's what Stannis thought about it, but I'd have to staunchly disagree. Stannis comes to Renly with a much smaller army and support of very little of the realm, and offers for him to surrender? That's not generous, that's ludicrous. Line of succession has its own little place, but succession is a lot more illusory than an army.

[Nezzer]

You obviously don't know the definition of murder:

1.

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Renly's death, was neither unlawful, nor premeditated.

I don't think murder needs to be premeditated. Killing someone after being angered is still murder. Still, how do you know Renly's death wasn't premeditated? Because Stannis said so? How convenient. We know he had to bang Mel to create the shadows, so he either banged her because he was sexually attracted to her or because he knew the act was going to create a shadow. We know he knew about the existence of the shadows when he ordered Mel to kill Penrose with Davos' help, so it's very likely he was aware of the first shadow as well. Why do people take everything Stannis says at face value and think all he says is the absolute truth? The way you guys want to whitewash Stannis is ruining his interesting character. Let the man be grey.

[Chatty Duelist]

I don't think murder needs to be premeditated. Killing someone after being angered is still murder. Still, how do you know Renly's death wasn't premeditated? Because Stannis said so? How convenient. We know he had to bang Mel to create the shadows, so he either banged her because he was sexually attracted to her or because he knew the act was going to create a shadow. We know he knew about the existence of the shadows when he ordered Mel to kill Penrose with Davos' help, so it's very likely he was aware of the first shadow as well. Why do people take everything Stannis says at face value and think all he says is the absolute truth? The way you guys want to whitewash Stannis is ruining his interesting character. Let the man be grey.

No, he wasn't aware of the first one. And we can take everything Stannis says at face value because he's mercilessly honest.

[Nezzer]

No, he wasn't aware of the first one. And we can take everything Stannis says at face value because he's mercilessly honest.

How can he be mercilessly honest when he lies even to himself. He knows he killed Renly, he just refuses to accept it. His hands were clean in the morning, he said as much. He gave Renly until dawn to bend the knee, but he was killed far ealier than that. He also cheats Selyse with Mel all the time. Nothing honest about that. Stannis also isn't stupid to admit stuff like that to others.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Actually, Renly went to war because his life was on the line too. Mainly due to Ned's stupidity, and because Cersei wanted his head. And no amount of agonizing will change the fact that Robert and Co betrayed their rightful king as well. So it's either they all had some honor (incl Renly), or none of them had any honor. You may choose, though I prefer the former option. :)

Only a Sith deals in absolutes

[Grimbold]

Is Stannis a sith?

[Bronn Urgandy]

Kinslayers are accursed in ASoIaF world as well as our own world.

Anyone who would kill someone from their own family is a mongrel, no matter the reason.

The Gods are blind and men see what they want to see.

Stannis is fine.

No, he didn't. First, of all Ned's main and final proof was that Cersei admitted to the twincest to him. Moreover, if Stannis had all that absolute proof then he should have performed his duty and informed Robert. But, instead he hide in Dragonstone and waited for Robert to die before coming out with his claims.

Edric Storm wasn't any definite of the twincest.

Stannis silence was his brothers best shield.

My biggest problem with Stannis's murder of Renly (and it was murder, by anyone's definition), is the extent to which he rationalises it. He knows right from wrong, he knows what he's done, and yet he doesn't subject himself to the moral code that he declares everyone else should live by. And the argument that Stannis, as king, has the right to serve justice by any means necessary is incredibly morally floored, and if you can't work out why, its not worth explaining.

I would also point out that Stannis didn't have much of a choice. He had to kill Renly to have any chance of seizing the IT. So basically, the ends justify the means for him. Too bad thats directly contrary to his own philosophy (a good act does not wash out the bad). So to get around that, he tells himself that Renly's death was coming no matter what he did, blinding himself to the truth that he murdered his own brother.

In reference to the OP, I've never read anything more ridiculous. Arguing that Renly's death was good for the plot does absolutely nothing to redeem Stannis, or justify his actions.

Haha, do you really believe Stannis will ever forgive himself for Renly? Necessity doesnt make right, but its still a necessity.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Is Stannis a sith?

No, Mel might be, but his black and white attitude is thrust upon him, more so than by him

[Draco_Dracul]

You obviously don't know the definition of murder:

1.

the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Renly's death, was neither unlawful, nor premeditated.

Actually, murder is the unlawful intentional killing. Renly's death was intended, Stannis is merely a claimant until his ass is on the throne (it was technically the War of Three Kings and Two Claimants), and Stannis was a lord of lower rank than Renly.

[Chatty Duelist]

Actually, murder is the unlawful intentional killing. Renly's death was intended, Stannis is merely a claimant until his ass is on the throne (it was technically the War of Three Kings and Two Claimants), and Stannis was a lord of lower rank than Renly.

You don't speak english very well.

It's literally what i said, intentional = premeditated.

And Stannis is the rightful King, he crowned himself King, in Dragonstone. So Stannis and Renly were of the same rank.

It's the War of the Rightful King and 4 other dudes.

[Grimbold]

His sense of justice seems pretty absolute

[Bronn Urgandy]

But seriously "waah waah waah, Stannis claims to be about duty but he fights (note; starts a war is innacurate) to win a throne with no proof and kills his brother with dark magic *boo hiss*"

He had reason to suspect incest, the man investigating it dies mysteriously, the WAR starts when Robert was still alive, then Robert gets gored, then Eddard Stark gets beheaded for treason, causing all and sundry to go "You wot mate?"

This isnt enough cause to take action? Your brothers wife passes off someone elses kids as his and murders everyone who finds out.

Stannis' response? Inform the realm and try to gather support. That goes tits up because two other people crown themselves, so Stannis tries to treat with Genghis Renly, who just threatens him and insults his family, so Stannis kills him and takes his men, fucking good plan. Renly is not just betraying the King, HE believes he's betraying two branches of his family as well.

Stannis clearly has an ideal where everyone does their duty and there is justice for all, unfortunately that ideal is often compromised, even for him "my brother or my King?" Its not a poor reflection on him that he tries to maintain this ideal and occasionally falters in an imperfect world full of shitty people, he himself being only human.

Oh and fuck Renly.

[Bronn Urgandy]

His sense of justice seems pretty absolute

Tell that to the craven he spared

[Victor227]

Tell that to the craven he spared

And the traitors. He pardoned loads of traitors after Renly died. I mean, admittedly they were a pack of traitors who could have overwhelmed his army easily, and he needed them to take King's Landing, but he still pardoned them all. He even acknowledges how stomach-churning it is to do so, but he did it anyway.

[Draco_Dracul]

You don't speak english very well.

It's literally what i said, intentional = premeditated.

And Stannis is the rightful King, he crowned himself King, in Dragonstone. So Stannis and Renly were of the same rank.

It's the War of the Rightful King and 4 other dudes.

In legal terms intent and premeditation are two distinct things, presence of intent makes it murder, premeditation makes it first degree murder. While intent is self explanatory, premeditation is the planning of the method to commit murder.

Stannis failed to establish his place in succession prior to the death of Robert, of the three Kings claiming the Iron Throne he's the one with least support. While technically he he legally should be the ruler (assuming you don't count his willful failure to inform the king about a threat to succession to be treasonous) , he is no more the king of Westeros than Dany is the Queen. As both Renly and Stannis where claiming the Iron Throne and did not have it that makes them a Lord Paramount and a High Lord respectively.

[sleath56]

I don't think murder needs to be premeditated. Killing someone after being angered is still murder. Still, how do you know Renly's death wasn't premeditated? Because Stannis said so? How convenient. We know he had to bang Mel to create the shadows, so he either banged her because he was sexually attracted to her or because he knew the act was going to create a shadow. We know he knew about the existence of the shadows when he ordered Mel to kill Penrose with Davos' help, so it's very likely he was aware of the first shadow as well. Why do people take everything Stannis says at face value and think all he says is the absolute truth? The way you guys want to whitewash Stannis is ruining his interesting character. Let the man be grey.

I agree, though you have to admit; it's amusing to see people try to justify a act of kinslaying, especially in a feudal society, and to a younger sibling, no less.

[Draco_Dracul]

I agree, though you have to admit; it's amusing to see people try to justify a act of kinslaying, especially in a feudal society, and to a younger sibling, no less.

Especially when it comes on the heels of a letting vital information go unsent to the king and then revealing it when it would justify his quest for the crown. People will argue that it would look bad if he revealed information to the king that would put him at the front of succession, but Robert was still a fairly young man and he had a great bastard with court education he could legitimize on the spot, so revealing it after Robert's death looks more self-serving, not less.

[Baelor Swyft]

Especially when it comes on the heels of a letting vital information go unsent to the king and then revealing it when it would justify his quest for the crown. People will argue that it would look bad if he revealed information to the king that would put him at the front of succession, but Robert was still a fairly young man and he had a great bastard with court education he could legitimize on the spot, so revealing it after Robert's death looks more self-serving, not less.

That's a very good point. I've always been shaky on why Stannis so peculiarly twiddled his thumbs until Robert's death... but that explanation sure makes a lot of sense.

[Dragonstoned]

For the Nth time Stannis only realises the part he plays in Renly's death after the fact. When he says his hands are clean and Davos says something doesn't feel right, what he is referring to is Stannis's refusal to admit it was the shadowbaby conceived by him that killed Renly, not him ordering Renly's death (because this isn't what he did). From the way Stannis talks of what happened, then and at later points in the books, it is also clear that Stannis was well aware of his role in Renly's death, and when telling Davos his hands were clean which was right after, was simply trying in vain to convince himself otherwise.

Stannis's remorse for his brother's death is one of the best things about him.