Why women are more hated?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

This is a trend I've seen both here in ASOIAF and in various other shows. When it comes to the most hated characters, the women always top the list (Examples: Dany, Cat, Sansa) while male characters seem to get the easiest way out. Why this happens? It's more of a genuine question than actually trying to create drama, since I've seen it so many times. Why do characters get more hate from fans when they are female?

[ignatz]

I don't think there's just one reason, but at least part of it is that people have an easier time sympathizing with fictional men's flaws than women's.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Hate for any character is stupid.

Sorry, it is, some you're ment to dislike as it makes reading about the ones you do like more entertaining.

But anyone that comes out and says "blah blah I hate this character". In my opinion has no idea what real hate is and Should get a clue.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Double

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Idk, I don't have strong hate feelings for any of the women. Maybe Brienne because she's so annoying.

Arriane Martell is a candidate for hate because I heard she was talking smack about Dany in a WoW sample.

Wait I did hate Sansa in GoTs.

I think the woman are among the most loved characters too. Excluding the Cult of Stannis and Nedders

[Nami]

I believe some people unconsciously can't deal when a female character stand out when compared to a male character.

But we can't say that everyone who hates the female character hate her for the same reasons.

[mrunderhill]

I would say actually Cat and Sansa have defenders, who excuse all their bad actions and this is what leads to the debate. You don't see thread after thread defending Ned's bad decisions, but for Catelyn she is constantly excused and excuses are made. Same with Sansa. As for Dany she is highly incompetent hypocritical ruler.

[Newstar]

Sexism? Just a wild guess.

Since you have named specific characters, though--Dany, Cat, and Sansa--and since there are many female characters who are not hated, isn't a better question "Why are Dany, Cat and Sansa hated?"

To be fair, I do think the way Cat and Sansa were written in AGOT was so unsympathetic that a lot of people couldn't get over it. Say what you will, but they were downright mean at points in AGOT. Cat tells Jon it should have been him! Sansa tells Arya she should have died instead of Lady! I mean, Jesus. Apart from their occasional shows of nastiness in AGOT, Cat and Sansa's actions in AGOT--kidnapping Tyrion, refusing to back Arya up over the Trident incident, and going to Cersei--marked them as irredeemably unsympathetic to a lot of people, I think, no matter what they did in subsequent books to temper that impression.

Also, the characters who top these favourite character polls regularly--and seem to be GRRM's favourite characters--are Jon, Arya, and Tyrion, and Cat and Sansa have the unusual distinction among ASOIAF characters of behaving poorly towards all three of them in some way, albeit for justifiable or at least understandable reasons (with a few exceptions, like Cat's nastiness towards Jon and Sansa's nastiness towards Arya). That adds up to a lot of hate super quickly, since fans who love Jon, Arya and Tyrion--and there are a lot of them, albeit fewer Tyrion fans after ADWD, I imagine--feel protective of them and therefore angry towards Sansa and Cat for acting towards them as they did, even if Sansa and Cat had their reasons and those reasons were (mostly, again) understandable.

As for Dany, I didn't think she was that unpopular before ADWD, but her stock seems to have plummeted considerably afterwards. Sexism might explain some of it, since Dany is pilloried for her ill-advised dalliance with a shady, good-looking dude, but Tyrion somehow escapes fannish censure for his ill-advised dalliance with Shae. Double standards, much? On the other hand, Tyrion seems to have been a competent Hand, while Dany's competence at ruling Meereen was somewhat more questionable.

[Breastplate Stretcha]

Hate for any character is stupid.

Sorry, it is, some you're ment to dislike as it makes reading about the ones you do like more entertaining.

But anyone that comes out and says "blah blah I hate this character". In my opinion has no idea what real hate is and Should get a clue.

I disagree.

In a series that is more character-driven than plot-driven, you're going to have schisms within the fanbase. There is nothing wrong or stupid about it.

Sexism? Just a wild guess.

I don't think that's the case. Some of Dany's harshest critics are women from what I've seen.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Men are presumed to be more competent so they get to make mistakes and still retain the benefit of the doubt.

Women are presumed more incompetent and must always prove themselves. Any mistake is total failure.

Then there's the Madonna/whore paradigm. Dany in particular violates this one.

I doubt most people are consciously sexist, it's just that people (both men and women) internalize sexist values and don't realize it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Some of it is sexism, sure — but in a weird way I think it's because people hold women to a higher standard and expect more from them, and as such are harder on them when they stumble. Some of the criticism about female characters, I find extremely unfair and shrill, namely that which is leveled at Sansa a lot of the time. Some of it I disagree with but can understand, like a lot of what's leveled at Catelyn. Some of it I think is completely fair and based on actual sound judgment, like Dany and Cersei. But it depends on your perspective. I've seen some arguments on here that insinuate that any criticism of a female character is somehow sexist or gender-based, and that's unfair and also undermines a lot of the very valid arguments that some people have.

For myself, I try to base my judgments on people's actions and attitudes. There are female characters that I dislike, those I'm ambivalent about and those I really like. Same with the male characters. Whatever junk they're packing doesn't play a role in that.

[mrunderhill]

Men are presumed to be more competent so they get to make mistakes and still retain the benefit of the doubt.

Women are presumed more incompetent and must always prove themselves. Any mistake is total failure.

Then there's the Madonna/whore paradigm. Dany in particular violates this one.

I doubt most people are consciously sexist, it's just that people (both men and women) internalize sexist values and don't realize it.

Again look at how often Ned is called a fool, a terrible Hand or awful at politics. Look at all the criticism Robb gets. Their faults are accepted, but not for certain characters.

You in your post are trivialising the huge mistakes Dany makes in Meereen. It's not one mistake she had made but many.

[Nami]

Men are presumed to be more competent so they get to make mistakes and still retain the benefit of the doubt.

Women are presumed more incompetent and must always prove themselves. Any mistake is total failure.

Then there's the Madonna/whore paradigm. Dany in particular violates this one.

I doubt most people are consciously sexist, it's just that people (both men and women) internalize sexist values and don't realize it.

Agree with everything.

[Ser Greg of House House]

We live in a patriarchal society and yeah, we all reproduce it in a way or another. Don't get me wrong, it's in Martin's work too. We can choose to fight it or not.

Though I don't like when people say if you hate a certain character (Daenerys Targaryen, First of Her Name, Queen of Meereen, Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, Protector of the Realm, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, called Daenerys Stormborn, The Unburnt, Mother of Dragons) you must hate all women.

[Florina Laufeyson]

My mum loves Cat. Mum loves all the traditionally likable characters in the series too. Like Jon, Dany, Tyrion, and Arya. But Cat is special to my mum. Mum relates. Just like how i relate to Arya. While my mum's number one is Jon, Cat is like, her number two. Interestingly enough, my mum is warming up to Sansa. My mum is also rather traditional when it comes to gender roles, yet she loves herself some Brienne!

I personally dont give a fuck what lies between a character's legs. Its their actions that i judge. I dont hate on a character more because they are a dude or a lady. Thats just silly.

. I've seen some arguments on here that insinuate that any criticism of a female character is somehow sexist or gender-based, and that's unfair and also undermines a lot of the very valid arguments that some people have.

Arr. Its highly nasty and unnecessary.

I like how GRRM writes ladies. He writes them as people. So they screw up just as much as a dude would. Everyone's fuck ups in the series are on equal grounds.

[StormRhage]

Men are presumed to be more competent so they get to make mistakes and still retain the benefit of the doubt.

Women are presumed more incompetent and must always prove themselves. Any mistake is total failure.

Then there's the Madonna/whore paradigm. Dany in particular violates this one.

I doubt most people are consciously sexist, it's just that people (both men and women) internalize sexist values and don't realize it.

Men are presumed to be more competent so they get to make mistakes and still retain the benefit of the doubt.

Women are presumed more incompetent and must always prove themselves. Any mistake is total failure.

Then there's the Madonna/whore paradigm. Dany in particular violates this one.

I doubt most people are consciously sexist, it's just that people (both men and women) internalize sexist values and don't realize it.

Mostly :agree:

[Cold Hands Luke]

Funny we were discussing this a bit in another thread just now concerning Dany hate and Jon love. I cannot help but feel it is sexist. Especially when Jon and to a lesser degree Stannis get passes and excuses for evil behaviour but Dany's every single move is criticized and scrutinized through a microscope to the point of just hate. I cant tell you how many Dany hate threads I've read. I have read very few Stannis hate threads and not one Jon.

[TalalOfDorne]

Well Catelyn for one gets a lot of unnecessary hate folded in very inaccurate arguments, as does Sansa. I do find that women do tend to get more hate, and that a double standard is seen when comparing some of their actions with men. Im not saying thats completely the case, but its not something strange to me.

[Flig]

I really haven't seen this. You mentioned three characters who always seem to top the list, but that's just cherry picking, their are plenty of males up there: Walder Frey, Ramsay Bolton, Joffery Baratheon, and Gregor Clegane, to name a few.

What's interesting is that the fanbase is quite divided on the three you mentioned. They get about as much hate as they get love. I can only think of one female character who gets almost nothing but hate: Cersei. There are far more males who are universally reviled: Joffery, Walder, Ramsay, and Gregor again.

I don't think women are more hated, I just think that you may be more attuned to that hate and see it easier.

[Father of Hosts]

On this forum, it seems pretty balanced. Tyrion, Jaime and even Ned and Robb, to an extent, get their fair share of criticism. The only non-criticized character may be Davos. I don't get a vibe that men or women get special treatment, around here anyway.

Also, this thread will probably end poorly.

ETA: Clarity.