Why did Lyanna need 3 of the Kingsguard guarding her at the ToJ?

[Ygrain]

For all the conspiracy theorists - the public side of the story had SOME passable explanation for 15 years. The fact that 3 greatest knights of Westeros died defending Lyanna, not at Trident or King´s Landing or Storm´s End or Dragonstone, was immediately known to Robert and Jon Arryn. What explanation did Eddard give to Robert, Jon Arryn and the general public of Westeros? What did Barristan write in White Book?

If Lord Commander and Sword of the Morning were Absent Without Leave doing no apparently useful military mission when Rhaegaer marshalled all armies for Trident, don´t you think that Aerys and other people in position to ask like Prince Lewyn would have asked nosy questions, and Aerys was in position to countermand Rhaegaer and recall the Kingsguard.

Whereas leaving just one Kingsguard at the Tower and posting the other two at Storm´s End would have been apparently sensible deployment of forces. Besides, if the two were at Storm´s End, they were not personally encountering Aerys to be asked questions, and they could fob off Mace and all others with the line about keeping king´s secrets.

Once more: per GRRM, the KG would have been obliged to obey Rhaegar's orders. Aerys could countermand those orders only if he could contact his KG, which, it seems, he couldn't (or, alternately, his paranoia made him suspicious of them so he didn't want to). Except Aerys, there were no other people in position to ask nosy questions of the Crown Prince, and whatever agreement Aerys and Rhaegar had reached, the three KG seemed of minor importance.

As for the rest of Westeros: they most probably miss an important piece of the puzzle, and that is the KG being up-to-date with the recent events. Pull that one out, and you get three guys following their last orders in the middle of nowhere.

1) Where does Aerys think these KG are?

Rhaegar assigned them some task - is it really essential for him to know? Even if Rhaegar tells him that he left them to guard his lady Lyanna, Aerys lacks the means to call them back if Rhaegar refuses to tell him where ToJ is.

2) Why is Aerys not in control of these 3 KG that they listen to the prince over the king?

See above.

3) Why does Rhaegar think a newborn needs more protection than the heir to the throne? (assuming Aegon was alive at the time the order was given)

Lyanna has for her protection: 3 KG in an old watchtower

Elia and Aegon have for their protection: household knights and men-at-arms in Maegor's Fortress located within KL walls protected by thousands of Goldcloaks, plus the whole royal army between them and the Rebels.

Now, who is the more protected here?

[Victor227]

Here's a big one. Why is the Tower of Joy needed to begin with? Everyone knows that Rhaegar took off with Lyanna. If he wanted a safe place for her, he could have just gone literally next door to High Hermitage, or further into Dorne to Starfall. What on earth did he want to keep so secret that he hid Lyanna away?

The Sword of Morning is his best pal in the world, the Daynes are loyal even without that. If he wanted to protect her, he should have made House Dayne take her in as a guest, and give her a proper castle with shelter, protection, and -medical assistance-. What the hell was he thinking? If he wanted a child from her, did he think it would just pop out, dragon-wings and all? Childbearing was risky and dangerous work, why deny her the advantages of medical aid?

Aerys gets -one- Kingsguard member. Rhaegar can get three to wait around in the middle of nowhere while a war goes on. Big names with famous reputations winning fights in single-combat were what decided the war at the Trident, so naturally Rhaegar decided to leave his biggest names with the best reputations, and most capability in single-combat, behind.

Was it prophecy or something? Did something else go on there? Or was Rhaegar just a complete and total lunatic, wasting some of his best prospective field leaders on looking out for bandits while leaving his baby-momma-to-be alone to give birth with nothing but -knights- to help her should something go wrong? Lots of mysteries surrounding the Tower of Joy.

[Lonin]

Some questions I have are:

1) Where does Aerys think these KG are?

2) Why is Aerys not in control of these 3 KG that they listen to the prince over the king?

3) Why does Rhaegar think a newborn needs more protection than the heir to the throne? (assuming Aegon was alive at the time the order was given)

The only possible way I can see that this makes any sense is if Rhaegar convinced these KG to be a part of his coup to overthrow his father. At the same time Rhaegar either feels his other children don't need protection, there is a missing piece of information making Rhaegar believe Aegon is not his heir, or he gets super crazy about this prophecy and just doesn't care about them. However, if that was the case, why would the KG dump one mad king to raise another?

1) - Aerys might actually know where they are and not disapprove

2) - again, Aerys might be aware, and has given Rhaegar authority to command the KG

3) - Lyanna is pregnant at this time, Jon will be born in a few months

Its not clear to me that Rhaegar's parents Aerys and Rhaella are unaware of the situation with Lyanna.

[Ygrain]

Here's a big one. Why is the Tower of Joy needed to begin with? Everyone knows that Rhaegar took off with Lyanna. If he wanted a safe place for her, he could have just gone literally next door to High Hermitage, or further into Dorne to Starfall. What on earth did he want to keep so secret that he hid Lyanna away?

The Sword of Morning is his best pal in the world, the Daynes are loyal even without that. If he wanted to protect her, he should have made House Dayne take her in as a guest, and give her a proper castle with shelter, protection, and -medical assistance-. What the hell was he thinking? If he wanted a child from her, did he think it would just pop out, dragon-wings and all? Childbearing was risky and dangerous work, why deny her the advantages of medical aid?

Aerys gets -one- Kingsguard member. Rhaegar can get three to wait around in the middle of nowhere while a war goes on. Big names with famous reputations winning fights in single-combat were what decided the war at the Trident, so naturally Rhaegar decided to leave his biggest names with the best reputations, and most capability in single-combat, behind.

Was it prophecy or something? Did something else go on there? Or was Rhaegar just a complete and total lunatic, wasting some of his best prospective field leaders on looking out for bandits while leaving his baby-momma-to-be alone to give birth with nothing but -knights- to help her should something go wrong? Lots of mysteries surrounding the Tower of Joy.

1) Rhaegar made off with a maiden daughter of a Lord Paramount betrothed to another, which was bound to create a political shitstorm (though not on the scale that really followed). Under the most likely scenario, Aerys would have ordered him to return her (and I'm not even going here into the theory of polygamous marriage which he would have most certainly forbidden). The only way to avoid confrontation with Aerys' authority is drop off the radar.

2) Claiming that Lyanna had no medical aid is unbased. For one, we have examples of high-born ladies dying due to childbirth even with medical help, insufficient as it was due to the lack of knowledge and means, and furthermore, we know from the text that after the fight with the KG, there was still a person or persons present at ToJ other than Ned and HR (they found him holding Lyanna's body) and we also know that Wylla the wetnurse is at least partly on Jon's secret. There could have been a midwife, or Wylla could have acted as one, as well.

[mrunderhill]

There are a few possibilities about the Tower of Joy and why there had to be three kingsguard members, but most of them may Rhaegar look bad and the three members as betraying Aerys.

1. Aerys was scared that these members were not loyal and wanted them away from Kings Landing and the battle. Don't think this is likely, but it is possible.

2. Rhaegar underestimated the rebellion and was over confident. Dayne was a great commander, the most respected and deadliest knight in the realm. His presence alone may have turned the Battle of the Trident.

3. Rhaegar does not care enough about his actual wife and children, since he left them with just one member of the kingsguard and a crazy father.

4. The Kingsguard had already started taking orders from Rhaegar rather than the king as their duty entails.

5. Rhaegar had fallen for another prophecy forgetting how prophecy had hurt his family so badly in recent years.

[The Duke]

A girl meant that Viserys was Targaryen heir. I don't think there have been ruling Targaryen Queens. At this time Queen Rhaella Targaryen was still alive on Dragonstone

Kids come before brother/sister in the direct line, unless specifically stated. The Dance of Dragons was the younger Prince over throwing the older Princess after the king died ( to be expanded upon in Dangerous )Women). Or Rhaegar could have told them explicitly that the cold would be his heir, none if this is hard and fast rules. GRRM can go any way he wants with it really n

[Little and Less]

I think Jaime is the key here. And I'm hoping a few more POV's of him remembering this time and Rheager will enlighten us further.

Jaime tells us that vows are always in conflict; I wouldn't be surprised if the 3 KG at the TOJ were planning to revolt with Rheagar against his father. My guess is that Jaime wasn't the only one disgusted with King Aerys and began to question his vows to the King. (We again see this through Selmy who questions why he would serve the Mad King for so long.) Aerys may not have known where these KGs were, depends if Varys chose to tell him or not.

Rheagar knew he had to take out Robert Baratheon at the Trident because of Lyanna. Robert would never stop until Rheagar was dead for stealing his betrothed, this fight was inevitable. The only problem Rheagar underestimated Robert and his warhammer.

But with Robert out of the way, Rheagar could conceivably passify Ned (through Lyanna and Jon) and Jon Arryn and could come to a truce and have his father taken out of power (whether or not this is possible is anyone's guess) which was the reason for the rebellion. The birth of Jon would passify the North especially if he was named an heir to the IT (sorry Aegon) and legitimately married Lyanna. (Of course I don't know how he would have passified Dorne.)

[aceluby]

snip

Yes all of that could be the reasoning, but I don't buy it 100%. It doesn't add up to me. I think there are pieces to the story that have yet to be revealed as to why Rhaegar put so much emphasis in Jon over the actual heir or why Lyanna needed guarding in the first place.

[Ygrain]

Yes all of that could be the reasoning, but I don't buy it 100%. It doesn't add up to me. I think there are pieces to the story that have yet to be revealed as to why Rhaegar put so much emphasis in Jon over the actual heir or why Lyanna needed guarding in the first place.

Well, I believe that a yougn pregnant woman at the times of war needing protection requires no further reasons.

[Greymoon]

Here's a big one. Why is the Tower of Joy needed to begin with? Everyone knows that Rhaegar took off with Lyanna. If he wanted a safe place for her, he could have just gone literally next door to High Hermitage, or further into Dorne to Starfall. What on earth did he want to keep so secret that he hid Lyanna away?

The Sword of Morning is his best pal in the world, the Daynes are loyal even without that. If he wanted to protect her, he should have made House Dayne take her in as a guest, and give her a proper castle with shelter, protection, and -medical assistance-. What the hell was he thinking? If he wanted a child from her, did he think it would just pop out, dragon-wings and all? Childbearing was risky and dangerous work, why deny her the advantages of medical aid?

Aerys gets -one- Kingsguard member. Rhaegar can get three to wait around in the middle of nowhere while a war goes on. Big names with famous reputations winning fights in single-combat were what decided the war at the Trident, so naturally Rhaegar decided to leave his biggest names with the best reputations, and most capability in single-combat, behind.

Was it prophecy or something? Did something else go on there? Or was Rhaegar just a complete and total lunatic, wasting some of his best prospective field leaders on looking out for bandits while leaving his baby-momma-to-be alone to give birth with nothing but -knights- to help her should something go wrong? Lots of mysteries surrounding the Tower of Joy.

That's why I suspect that Rhaegar and Lyanna were not hiding in the Tower of Joy the whole time, but that they were mobile/traveling before the whole Rebellion really took shape. When the war broke out, travelling would have become more difficult. IMO, the Tower of Joy makes sense as a short term/emergency shelter, not a long term one. Following up on this they would have been traveling with two KG, and chosen the moutain pass road once they'd heard of the war, to prevent recognition/capture. Hightower joined them later, possibly after having received word from Rhaegar. There's no textual evidence for this, but, to me it makes more sense.

[A bowl of brown]

I've always wondered why the Lords of Westeros post RR thought there were 3 KG there? I mean its a bit excessive for someone who offiicially wasn't part of the Royal Family. I would have thought people would have been at least slightly intrigued by why the best sword in the lands was left guarding a "mistress" when the greatest threat to the throne for 100 years was going on.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I've always wondered why the Lords of Westeros post RR thought there were 3 KG there? I mean its a bit excessive for someone who offiicially wasn't part of the Royal Family. I would have thought people would have been at least slightly intrigued by why the best sword in the lands was left guarding a "mistress" when the greatest threat to the throne for 100 years was going on.

One possible explanation is that everyone else didn't know that the Kingsguard knew what had happened. That's actually why their presence there is really so curious: We know based on their chat with Ned that they DO know what had happened and they're still there. All Ned has to do to divert most of the suspicion there is put on like they DIDN'T know.

[Lonin]

Kids come before brother/sister in the direct line, unless specifically stated. The Dance of Dragons was the younger Prince over throwing the older Princess after the king died ( to be expanded upon in Dangerous )Women). Or Rhaegar could have told them explicitly that the cold would be his heir, none if this is hard and fast rules. GRRM can go any way he wants with it really n

Bolded is not true for Targaryen succession.

"Since the Dance, House Targaryen has practiced a highly modified version of agnatic primogeniture, placing female claimants in the line of succession behind all possible male ones"

Yes, succession per GRRM is not hard and fast in Westeros.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dance_of_the_Dragons

[A bowl of brown]

One possible explanation is that everyone else didn't know that the Kingsguard knew what had happened. That's actually why their presence there is really so curious: We know based on their chat with Ned that they DO know what had happened and they're still there. All Ned has to do to divert most of the suspicion there is put on like they DIDN'T know.

Ok but would they not think it a bit weird that 3 of them were there? I know that who the KG guards varies massively depending on the monarch but having almost half the KG guarding someone perceived to simply be Rhaegar's mistress must have raised some questions. I mean them not knowing about the Trident/Sack explains why they didn't follow Viserys but not why they were there in the first place, no?

[Ygrain]

Ok but would they not think it a bit weird that 3 of them were there? I know that who the KG guards varies massively depending on the monarch but having almost half the KG guarding someone perceived to simply be Rhaegar's mistress must have raised some questions. I mean them not knowing about the Trident/Sack explains why they didn't follow Viserys but not why they were there in the first place, no?

Per GRRM: if Rhaegar ordered them to stay, they would stay, and I doubt that anyone in Westeros, where obedience to the liege is paramount, would ever doubt that.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Ok but would they not think it a bit weird that 3 of them were there? I know that who the KG guards varies massively depending on the monarch but having almost half the KG guarding someone perceived to simply be Rhaegar's mistress must have raised some questions. I mean them not knowing about the Trident/Sack explains why they didn't follow Viserys but not why they were there in the first place, no?

The point is that when they were SENT there, the Targs had other protection and were in pretty solid shape, such that Rhaegar could send three of them to guard Lyanna without it being an issue. Rhaegar ordered them to stay there, but that doesn't explain why they were STILL there when Ned arrived. Frankly Jon being the heir is the only thing that does, satisfactorily. What I'm saying is, if people are wondering why they were still there, all Ned has to say is, "They didn't know the other Targaryens were already dead." Even though they did.

[Ser Leftwich]

Ok but would they not think it a bit weird that 3 of them were there? I know that who the KG guards varies massively depending on the monarch but having almost half the KG guarding someone perceived to simply be Rhaegar's mistress must have raised some questions. I mean them not knowing about the Trident/Sack explains why they didn't follow Viserys but not why they were there in the first place, no?

Is it common knowledge after the Robellion that Ned and company had the fight at the ToJ with the KG with Lyanna there? That Ned and company had the fight with the KG seems commonly known within the story. Also, that Lyanna was dead is what reconciled Ned and Robert, also well known within the story.

But does anyone in the story, besides Ned, connect the KG battle with Lyanna being present?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Is it common knowledge after the Robellion that Ned and company had the fight at the ToJ with the KG with Lyanna there? That Ned and company had the fight with the KG seems commonly known within the story. Also, that Lyanna was dead is what reconciled Ned and Robert, also well known within the story.

But does anyone in the story, besides Ned, connect the KG battle with Lyanna being present?

That's another good point. We know what happened and how it played out. We don't know what everyone else THINKS happened and how it played out.

[A bowl of brown]

Per GRRM: if Rhaegar ordered them to stay, they would stay, and I doubt that anyone in Westeros, where obedience to the liege is paramount, would ever doubt that.

Right I get that people in Westeros think they stayed because Rhaegar told them too. We know Rhaegar told them to because of Jon + Lyanna. We know they stayed post sack because Jon became the King. But would people not wonder why Rhaegar wanted all 3 to stay when only 1 KG was guarding the royal family?

[A bowl of brown]

That's another good point. We know what happened and how it played out. We don't know what everyone else THINKS happened and how it played out.

Doesn't Lady Dustin complain to Theon that Ned brought back Lyanna's bones whilst entombing her husband in Dorne? Which suggests she at least associates the two? I think Catelyn recalls in GoT Winterfell men at arms being proud of Ned defeating Arthur Dayne in single combat which suggests people are aware of the 7 vs 3. Which also makes me wonder why Westerosi think Ned took such a small number of men to fight some of the best swords in Westeros, we know it was to protect Jon's identity but they wouldn't.