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Stubby

R+L=J v. 57

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The next instalment...

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Anyway we can get the updated reference guide posted right away? I just tried to copy and past it and none of the hyperlinks worked.

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Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?

Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?

The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?

Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

Note, I changed the font to Arial in this post. For some reason fonts get screwed up when posting the new version.

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Anyway we can get the updated reference guide posted right away? I just tried to copy and past it and none of the hyperlinks worked.

Thanks for the ref. guide.

Also, just caught your signature, and wishing you a very healthy, happy "warrior." ^_^

My best guy friend named his son after Roy Batty in "Blade Runner."

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Thanks for the ref. guide.

NP

Also, just caught your signature, and wishing you a very healthy, happy "warrior." ^_^

My best guy friend named his son after Roy Batty in "Blade Runner."

You were aiming at Jon Blackfyre. ;)

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Thanks for the ref. guide.

Also, just caught your signature, and wishing you a very healthy, happy "warrior." ^_^

My best guy friend named his son after Roy Batty in "Blade Runner."

Thanks! The best part is my wife suggested both names, and spellings. With our daughter she said "I don't know where I heard it from but I like Lyanna." So I said sounds great to me! And then told her where she had heard it from which she laughed about but didn't change her mind.

Then when we learned we are having a boy we were between Daemon and Dominic and she chose Daemon, and that spelling too. Once again after the fact I let her know where it came from.

I don't think I'd ever have gotten Rhaegar to fly... And naming siblings Rhaegar and Lyanna is plain wrong.

Thanks MtnLion for posting the guide!

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How disappointed will everyone be if Jon ends up just being the product of Eddard & Ashara? Personally, I totally stand & fervently hope that the R+L=J theory turns out to be fact, but you know Mr. Martin.

(Personally, I'd rather see Jon on the Iron Throne in the end over Daenerys)

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How disappointed will everyone be if Jon ends up just being the product of Eddard & Ashara? Personally, I totally stand & fervently hope that the R+L=J theory turns out to be fact, but you know Mr. Martin.

(Personally, I'd rather see Jon on the Iron Throne in the end over Daenerys)

I'd be pretty put out for sure... But honestly, even with Jon being my favorite character, I don't believe he survives the series. Not talking about any events in aDwD either. I mean I think he will end up sacrificing himself to save the realm and even though R+L=J will be revealed it won't matter. Just a hunch I have on GRRM tipping the classic tropes on their head.

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How disappointed will everyone be if Jon ends up just being the product of Eddard & Ashara? Personally, I totally stand & fervently hope that the R+L=J theory turns out to be fact, but you know Mr. Martin.

(Personally, I'd rather see Jon on the Iron Throne in the end over Daenerys)

Only those who blindly accept that R+L=J as correct will be disappointed.

Jon could easily just be Ned's bastard and the story would still be awesome.

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I'd be pretty put out for sure... But honestly, even with Jon being my favorite character, I don't believe he survives the series. Not talking about any events in aDwD either. I mean I think he will end up sacrificing himself to save the realm and even though R+L=J will be revealed it won't matter. Just a hunch I have on GRRM tipping the classic tropes on their head.

If Jon really dies, I will be devastated. Just like if Arya or Sansa were to die. I'm so Pro-Stark, it's not even funny.

But I see your point. Jon may not be Ned's son, but he definitely inherited that compulsion for all things honorable, and self-sacrifice for the greater good is the epitome of honor.

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NPYou were aiming at Jon Blackfyre. ;)

Woops, that's right, but thanks for the guide. :bowdown:

Thanks! The best part is my wife suggested both names, and spellings. With our daughter she said "I don't know where I heard it from but I like Lyanna." So I said sounds great to me! And then told her where she had heard it from which she laughed about but didn't change her mind.

Then when we learned we are having a boy we were between Daemon and Dominic and she chose Daemon, and that spelling too. Once again after the fact I let her know where it came from.

I don't think I'd ever have gotten Rhaegar to fly... And naming siblings Rhaegar and Lyanna is plain wrong.

Thanks MtnLion for posting the guide!

My friend actually wanted to name his son Rutger after the actor whom he loved, but, he was talked out of it and settled on Hauers signature character- Roy.

Anyway, sending positive thoughts your way on a safe and healthy delivery for you and your wife. :)

How disappointed will everyone be if Jon ends up just being the product of Eddard & Ashara? Personally, I totally stand & fervently hope that the R+L=J theory turns out to be fact, but you know Mr. Martin.

(Personally, I'd rather see Jon on the Iron Throne in the end over Daenerys)

I think R+L=J, but that doesn't negate N+A= A (Allyria) who is supposed to be Asharas sister and Edrics Aunt. However, I think it more likely that it's Brandon and Ashara that begets Allyria.

If I'm not mistaken, I think Martin alluded to the possibility of Brandon having a bastard. :cool4:

I think that Jons destiny is greater than the Iron Throne, but if he is the last Targ. standing, he may adhere to Neds teachings on duty.

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How disappointed will everyone be if Jon ends up just being the product of Eddard & Ashara? Personally, I totally stand & fervently hope that the R+L=J theory turns out to be fact, but you know Mr. Martin.

(Personally, I'd rather see Jon on the Iron Throne in the end over Daenerys)

yea that would be a huge let down bc it would make jon snow that much more awesome if he is the son of rhaegar and lyanna.

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yea that would be a huge let down bc it would make jon snow that much more awesome if he is the son of rhaegar and lyanna.

Either way, I still think he's in the forefront of potentially being AA. SO HE'S STILL AWESOME. Also, what, he's like 15 or 16 and LORD COMMANDER of the NW? Jon Snow >>>

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How disappointed will everyone be if Jon ends up just being the product of Eddard & Ashara? Personally, I totally stand & fervently hope that the R+L=J theory turns out to be fact, but you know Mr. Martin.

(Personally, I'd rather see Jon on the Iron Throne in the end over Daenerys)

Thing is, we have too much evidence pointing in direction that Jon is Rhaegar/Lyanna's child, plus timeline doesn't fit for Ned/Ashara. All in all, this theory, as Ygrain or theguyfromtheVale said (sorry guys :)), this is the only theory that answers all the question, plus isn't in conflict with anything written in the books, like Ned/Ashara, or Ned/Wylla, or even Ned/FMD.

Only those who blindly accept that R+L=J as correct will be disappointed.

Jon could easily just be Ned's bastard and the story would still be awesome.

Actually we are passed the time where Mr. Martin could write satisfactory story without Jon being Rhaegar/Lyanna's son. Yes. this is a theory, but this theory is the only one that makes complete sense. No other... And I don't see how Jon could easily just be Ned's bastard, when everything in his storyline suggests otherwise.

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Only those who blindly accept that R+L=J as correct will be disappointed.

Jon could easily just be Ned's bastard and the story would still be awesome.

While agree the story is still awesome no matter how Jon's true parentage shakes out, why do you say "those who blindly accept R+L=J as correct?"

Why is it blindly following when there is so much evidence pointing towards it? It's not like people that think its fact are lemmings walking off a cliff, it's a pretty well thought out and developed concept with legs to stand on at this point.

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It's blindly if you exclude the possiblity, that there might be another explanation. I believe that R+ L = J...but feel I must remain open to the idea that GRRM is playing us.

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Only those who blindly accept that R+L=J as correct will be disappointed.

Jon could easily just be Ned's bastard and the story would still be awesome.

Blindly insinuates that we're doing so without evidence or examination, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Again, the aggregation of clues and the sheer time invested in this theory make people more suspicious of it than they should be and make them think it's more obvious than it really is.

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To blindly follow means to do so without preparation or reflection, without a rational basis. Believing blindly would be the same as believing thoughtlessly, carelessly, recklessly. I've had about 13 years to mull it over and listen to each counter argument to pick out the merits and faults. Just haven't heard one yet that really makes as much sense. Can't see how that is blindly believing in something to be honest. There can be other possibilities, doesn't mean believing in one over the other means you do so blindly.

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It's blindly if you exclude the possiblity, that there might be another explanation. I believe that R+ L = J...but feel I must remain open to the idea that GRRM is playing us.

As long as another explanation covers the whole ground that R+L do, I am open to it. So far, I have seen none, therefore I reject all the N+XY variants.

Also, storytelling-wise:

... yes, ladies and gentlemen, the big day has come! After seven books, the big reveal of Jon's mother is....

...a fisherman's daughter?!

...a Dornish wetnurse?!

Er...

The Ashara story is the only that offers some narrative potential, but, unfortunately, doesn't explain what R+L does.

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It's blindly if you exclude the possiblity, that there might be another explanation. I believe that R+ L = J...but feel I must remain open to the idea that GRRM is playing us.

... Not if you have examined the other alternatives against R+L=J and found them to not make as much narrative sense. Again, not what "blindly" means.

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