Do the Crannogmen descend from the Children of the Forest?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

If the Crannogmen are descended from the COTF, I think it's because of the Children interbreeding with the First Men, not that the COTF are wholly descendants of the Crannogmen.

:agree:

[ICRYRAGE]

I think it may be so,because the crannogmen are said to be short, as the children of the forest. They also live in the North, where they stayed until they were killed by the Andals. Besides, they seem to know and believe in the children's magic, as warging powers and green dreams. Could it bee that some of the children survived and gave birth to the crannogmen? Or do they descend from the Children and the First Men?

They are descended from both the first men and the Children of The Forest. We have been told that giants also breed with humans. Also the Starks have this same blood, due to the fact that when they defeated the Marsh King they took his daughter as a wife. This is how all these first men have their powers through the blood of the children of the forest.

[GHOSTSTARK]

If the Crannogmen are descended from the COTF, I think it's because of the Children interbreeding with the First Men, not that the COTF are wholly descendants of the Crannogmen.

:agree: ... my thoughts too. that could be why theyre able to hide so well and maybe why Jojen has the powers that he has

[Ser Leftwich]

Half-elf magic people in the swamp seems more lame than GRRM would write.

[OnlyOne]

I doubt it. But once again, I feel the need to point out that this is not real life and our world rules DNA ( Do Not Apply). Pun definitely intended. ;-)

[evita mgfs]

I have thought for some time that Howland is a greenseer, and he sits a weirwood throne of his own although it is related to the water element, and Howland "watches" the grey waters specifically as opposed to Bran's "earthly" presence. Actually, I have wondered about the Reed children's active interest in the underground river they often visit in the Cave of Skulls. The blind white fish or the waters themselves may carry messages from home, and Jojen's telepathy may perceive such obscure communications. As you can see, I am focusing on the "fantasy" aspect, think? :dunno:

[Bael's Bastard]

That's an interesting theory, but from the descriptions of Jojen, Meera and Bowen Marsh, there's nothing inherently inhuman about them. No big eyes, no cat pupils, no big ears or spots on their skin or claw nails. I'd wager, if it's even possible to inbred a human and a child of the forest, at least some of their alien-like traits would pass down.

I think the crannogmen's short stature simply due to natural selection from living in a convoluted area. Though I agree they're shrouded in mysteries and I'd love to read more about them, either in the World volume or in the next two books.

Who ever said Bowen is a crannogman? Just because his house is from the Neck doesn't automatically mean they are crannogmen. Source?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Well, we have characters where it's spelled out that they're a mix of human and CotF.

The tragic hermit lady of the BWB, Maggie the Frog, the cat-eyed woman who negotiated for Tyrions passage, some others. I think the Reeds are just a less extreme example. "Cat eyes" doesn't happen with all of the other hybrids. Short stature and swarthy hair/eyes and green dreams does.

It also seems that some talents, like greenseeing and skinchanging, are (as far as we can tell) unknown in Essos, and for that matter clearly increase in frequency among First Man families and lineages, like Starks and Wildings.

It also seems that humans and giants interbreed, likewise (apparently) not mentioned in Essos.

Humans mated with the Old Races in Westeros, and the more mixed they are, the more they're like the Old Race.

We have to take notice of some comparisons in the Starks too, Bran's climbing and Arya warging the cats to see.

Something went on there.

[JP Dayne]

If the Crannogmen are descended from the COTF, I think it's because of the Children interbreeding with the First Men, not that the COTF are wholly descendants of the Crannogmen.

this is pretty much what I take for fact

the magical thing jojen has is definetly because of his heritage.

[Whitering]

this is pretty much what I take for fact

the magical thing jojen has is definetly because of his heritage.

Are we presuming there weren't men like Gregor's band or the Brave Companions back then? Unfortunately all types of war carry rape and pillaging. Maybe the Crannogmen are descendants of that type of human idiocy.

[TheCrannogDweller]

I wouldn't get so fixed on the 50/50 features. In Tolkien's universe, doesn't Aragorn have some elven ancestors? He doesn't seem to have any physical elven features, yet he lived much longer that common men.

Not only that but through those elven relations he is a direct descendant of one of Gandalf and Sauron's fellow Maiar, who married one of the first elven kings.

They are descended from both the first men and the Children of The Forest. We have been told that giants also breed with humans. Also the Starks have this same blood, due to the fact that when they defeated the Marsh King they took his daughter as a wife. This is how all these first men have their powers through the blood of the children of the forest.

This is what I believe, too. It ties nicely with this pet theory I have - that an RLJ Jon has the royal blood of all the peoples that inhabit Westeros.

[Swamp Dweller]

So I was reading TWOIAF (which I guess has come out since the last post in this thread) and came across a part about the Andal invasion that made me ponder this, thus leading me to this thread. 

 

And what the First Men could never succeed in doing - eradicating the children entirely - the Andals managed to achieve in short order.

Some few children may have fled to the Neck, where there was safety amidst the bogs and crannogs, but if they did, no trace of them remains.

TWOIAF, Arrival of the Andals

 

So this suggest the last remaining CotF fled to the Neck during the Andal invasion, which reinforces that theory that the Crannogmen could potentially be descended from the CotF. 

 

But like others have brought up, I wonder if they are actually descended from them via intermarriages between the First Men and CotF OR if the two groups formed a bond and the CotF shared some of their knowledge with them (ie greensight).

 

Maester Luwin spoke up. "The histories say the crannogmen grew close to the children of the forest in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck. It may be that they have secret knowledge."

ACOK, Theon IV

 

We know the crannogmen are physically distinct, particularly their small stature. According to the description of the 'crannogmen' in the Wiki (which I know isn't the best source)

 

Some claim the crannogmen's smaller size is because of intermarriage with the children of the forest, while others attribute their size to poor nutrition

 

But what other characteristics do they possibly share with the CotF? Well, also according to TWOIAF

 

They [the CotF] made their homes simply, constructing no holdfasts or castles or cities. Instead they resided in woods, in crannogs, in bogs and marshes, and even in caverns and hollow hills.  It is said that, in the woods, they made shelters of leaves and withes up in the branches of tree - secret tree "towns".  It has long been held that they did this for protection from predators such as direwolves and shadowcats, which their simple stone weapons - and even their vaunted greenseers - were not proof against.

TWOIAF, The Dawn Age

 

And compare this to the description of the crannogmen

 

He tried to recall all he had been taught of the crannogmen, who dwelt amongst the bogs of the Neck and seldom left their wetlands. They were a poor folk, fishers and frog-hunters who lived in houses of thatch and woven reeds on floating islands hidden in the deeps of the swamp. It was said that they were a cowardly people who fought with poisoned weapons and preferred to hide from foes rather than face them in open battle.

ACOK, Bran III

 

And we obviously know that Jojen has greensight but I'm not sure if this is something that is common among Crannogmen.  According to the Wiki for 'greensight' (again, I know its not the best source)

 

Some crannogmen who keep many of the old ways are also known to have greensight.

 

So this suggests that Jojen is not the only crannogman with this gift. 

 

But other than their relative shortness, they don't seem to really physically resemble the CotF (large ears, big slitted cat-like eyes, nut-brown skin, four black-clawed fingers, etc), whether that can be attributed to the First Men having dominant traits or something who could possibly say.

 

So I wonder what others think, if the crannogmen are actually descended from the CotF or if the early crannogmen became close with the CotF and learned/were taught much of their magic and knowledge such as greensight?

[Damon_Tor]

That's an interesting theory, but from the descriptions of Jojen, Meera and Bowen Marsh, there's nothing inherently inhuman about them. No big eyes, no cat pupils, no big ears or spots on their skin or claw nails. I'd wager, if it's even possible to inbred a human and a child of the forest, at least some of their alien-like traits would pass down.

 

The Crannogmen are "descended" from the Children in the same way that the Valyrians are descended from dragons. It's magic bro, not the result of conventional biological gene-swapping.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

Crannogmen are clearly descendants of Marshwiggles.

[John Suburbs]

Where is it written that humans can make babies with Others? The Night's King would sleep with an Other, but there's no mention of she ever getting pregnant.

The only mention of inbreeding among different races is humans with giants, and that's most likely folk tale to explain why some are born taller than others.

 

Depends on how much stock you put in old tales and legends. Old Nan told Bran and the other children that Wildlings lay with Others and spawned inhuman babies. The Night's King wed an Other bride and then started "sacrificing" to the Others. If we assume that these sacrifices were the same as Craster's, then human/Other interbreeding would be possible.

 

Or the stories could just be a lot of bunk.

[Varys BrightBlackflayrme]

In the beginning, in Westeros, there were only the Children and the Giants. And later First Men arrived. Then War.  

Pacts ares made (marriage) between the Children and the First Men. War ends. War starts. The Starks kill lots of Wargs and Children. New War.  The Others suddenly exist. Men and Ice Magic?. Others to whom? Other Starks, FM, First Nights Watch?

The Starks killed lots of Wargs and Children (timeline sucks). Crannogmen grew close to the Children (interbred). They learnt Earth & Blood Magic. Crannog inter marry with Starks. War Ends. Andals arrive, WAR.

 

There are only few Houses that have special Blood. Starks, Targaryens, Daynes and Reed. (Blackwoods are related to Starks). Mel is Bloodraven's daughter.

BR is about 125 years old or older. I'm not a mathematician.  Mel is old. GoHH is pretty old too. Either she is a CotF with a glamour or a Crannoglady mixer. GoHH is also similar to Leaf. Leaf is over 200 years old. Learnt Common tongue and walked Westeros until she got bored.

A story that has dragons and others in it should make it conceivable to believe that First Men / Children inter bred. Blood is what is needed for magic. That's why it's called Blood Magic. All types of magic uses Blood.   

[sertravisredbeard]

During the series the idea is floated that female giants could mate with human men.  I don't see why a similar coupling couldn't occur between Children of the Forest and humans at some point.  It was a Looooong Night and Winter, after all.

[The Great Lion of the Rock]

I don't see how any very early interbreeding is out of the question, I think enough breeding with pure First Men is enough to snuff out any alien traits, besides general shortness. The Crannogmen have retained some practice of magic throughout history, even when magic was merely an echo of its former self. I don't think this is possible without a little COTF blood in them. If they were simply First Men, who happened to be short and imitated the COTF as the inhabitants of Slaver's Bay might attempt to imitate Old This, they wouldn't have been able to wield magic as they did, when magic was virtually dead.

[Jak Scaletongue]

On 2013-08-18 at 8:45 AM, Don Roberto said:

Where is it written that humans can make babies with Others? The Night's King would sleep with an Other, but there's no mention of she ever getting pregnant.

 

The only mention of inbreeding among different races is humans with giants, and that's most likely folk tale to explain why some are born taller than others.

Old Nan told Bran that wildling women slept with Others and made half-human babies.  And so far, Old Nan's been right about everything else....

On 2014-04-10 at 8:16 AM, Ser Leftwich said:

Half-elf magic people in the swamp seems more lame than GRRM would write.

 

Everyone's idea of "lame" is different - I, for one, would not find "half-elf magic swamp people" lame at all.

On 2014-05-23 at 5:43 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

Who ever said Bowen is a crannogman? Just because his house is from the Neck doesn't automatically mean they are crannogmen. Source?

1) "Crannogman" is a term used for people who live in the Neck.  Bowen Marsh lived in the Neck.  The term "crannogman" to describe him is not inaccurate (certainly more accurate than the also-used "bog devil").  2) While it isn't explicitly stated - it is implied that crannogs are the only way to build a decent house in the swamps.  3) His name is MARSH.  Definitely from the Neck.  Where it is notoriously swampy, boggy and marshy. 

You do know where the term "crannogmen" came from, right?  It basically means "People who live in crannogs."  From Wikipedia: a crannog "is typically a partially or entirely artificial island, usually built in lakes, rivers and estuarine waters of Scotland and Ireland." and "the modern adoption in the English language broadly refers to a partially or completely artificial islet."  There's lots more - I actually found it pretty interesting (and slightly different than what I was envisioning). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crannog

Basically houses on stilts and/or a man-made island/islet.  So, basically these guys in the Neck had to move soil, trees and any other building material they could to create islands big enough to house a larger population than a family-group size.  If the Marsh's are a big enough House to merit a mention, it's a good bet they are, by definition, "crannogmen."  

But, at the end of the day, "Crannogmen" is a term used to define someone from the Neck.  Bowen Marsh is from the Neck.  Whether he technically lived on a true crannog or not he is still, by Westerosi standards, a "Crannogman" by being born and raised in the Neck.

On 2015-07-29 at 11:40 PM, sertravisredbeard said:

During the series the idea is floated that female giants could mate with human men.  I don't see why a similar coupling couldn't occur between Children of the Forest and humans at some point.  It was a Looooong Night and Winter, after all.

This!  Old Nan says Others mated with humans, we're told giants mated with humans, we're told about all sorts of forced breeding programs between other species - it seems likely humans and Children at least *tried* to mate with each other.

And didn't someone in the Vale marry a COTF, and she died giving birth...dammit!  I'm at work, so I'll see what I dig up online.  If not, I'll see what I can find when I get home to my WOIAF.  I want to say it was the first Andal King that tried it, but I'm gonna have to look!

ETA: From asearchoficeandfire (emphasis mine):

Quote

"The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command. To win the Vale, he flew to the top of the Giant's Lance and slew the Griffin King. He counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son."

Not definitive proof, I'll be the first to admit - the whole Artys Arryn story is too out-of-place for it to be considered "proof" of anything.  But I knew I'd read it !  Given all the other human-nonhuman mating that we're told went on, human+cotf doesn't sound like much of a stretch (if humans were f**king giants and Others, it's highly likely humans were f**king children of the forest! They're smaller and warmer than the other two!)

[TheSovereignGrave]

I think it's liable that all First Men have some of the Children's blood in them. The ability to skinchange and Greensight seems to be a blood thing, and Children are the only other race who can do it. And why would the First Men, who originally had no connection to the weirwoods or the Old Gods, have had them originally? The only skinchangers we know of are Starks or Wildlings, and the other houses who are rumoured to be skinchangers are House Farwynd and Crane and both of them likely originated as First Men (house Crane definitely so).