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Lyanna's abduction would still be despised even if it was consensual, right?


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No, we don't see Ned cursing Aerys. When he thinks about Rhaegar outside of the brothel, Ned is also feeling extremely guilty-- there is a line about the rain coming down like old guilts. I've always tried to figure out why the line about guilt appears, and if it is associated with the part about Rhaegar.

Ned truly has nothing to feel guilty about with Rhaegar imo. Maybe he thinks about what life could have been without the war or that Rhaegar's name has been slandered as a rapist even if he was the greatest of guys in general. He just like that person who always feels guilty. He also thinks everything should have been Brandons. That wasn't his fault either.

Should Ned and Robert have just handed themselves over to Aerys when they didn't do anything? Then Rhaegar can be the one to be thought of as a hero for finally getting rid of Aerys after he has murdered two more innocent young men.

I like Ned, but he can be such a downer.

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Or possibly guilt he wasn't able to save his sister?

yeah, that's probably it. i can't figure out if he has a grudging respect for Rhaegar. Otherwise it's strange that we get nothing.

I don't know that I see Barristan as completely unbiased, either. He wanted to be in Rhaegar's inner circle so badly, and wasn't included, that I wonder if he didn't idealize him.

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Ned truly has nothing to feel guilty about with Rhaegar imo. Maybe he thinks about what life could have been without the war or that Rhaegar's name has been slandered as a rapist even if he was the greatest of guys in general. He just like that person who always feels guilty. He also thinks everything should have been Brandons. That wasn't his fault either.

Should Ned and Robert have just handed themselves over to Aerys when they didn't do anything? Then Rhaegar can be the one to be thought of as a hero for finally getting rid of Aerys after he has murdered two more innocent young men.

I like Ned, but he can be such a downer.

Ned truly has nothing to feel guilty about with Rhaegar imo. Maybe he thinks about what life could have been without the war or that Rhaegar's name has been slandered as a rapist even if he was the greatest of guys in general. He just like that person who always feels guilty. He also thinks everything should have been Brandons. That wasn't his fault either.

Should Ned and Robert have just handed themselves over to Aerys when they didn't do anything? Then Rhaegar can be the one to be thought of as a hero for finally getting rid of Aerys after he has murdered two more innocent young men.

I like Ned, but he can be such a downer.

well, maybe Ned just feels guilty all the time. In terms of Brandon, I have an idea that maybe Brandon made him feel that way. I keep thinking about that comment, too. Brandon, the older brother, may have felt he was entitled to everything. Even Ashara.

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well, maybe Ned just feels guilty all the time. In terms of Brandon, I have an idea that maybe Brandon made him feel that way. I keep thinking about that comment, too. Brandon, the older brother, may have felt he was entitled to everything. Even Ashara.

It's possible that Brandon made him feel that way, but I don't know. If Brandon was ever really like that with Ned, we would have gotten that from him in his own pov not from someone else six or seven books down the line if it ever came up again. It could have just been Ned's own inner angst. He was the second son of a proud old noble House. He was constantly outshinned by his older brother, which may have very well made everything more internalized for him. He was destined to be Kevan. The follower and not the leader and maybe he held a grudge against Brandon about it. Brandon was the heir, good looking, a great swordfighter, loud and good with the ladies.

With Ashara, I don't know. It feels like when people think Brandon stole her friend Ned. They refuse to acknowledge Ashara's feelings in the whole matter. Brandon was the first one to talk to him and what is the first thing he does. He asks her to give a dance to his shy little brother. That would catch anyone's eye just the caring involved when he could have easily been making fun of Ned about it. Ned may not have said a single thing to Ashara through the dance so is she now suddenly his.

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His diplomacy sucks (it doesn't even appear he ever tried), his foresight of events sucks (going into hiding after creating a combustible situation...he had to have expected a reaction), and honestly one thing I will never forgive him for is leaving Elia and her children to the whims of his crazy father with no protection whatsoever (3 members of the Kingsguard, none for Elia, Rhaenyas, or Aegon).

Why people always say this?

You do realize Elia was in King's Landing, right? With huge ass walls and thousands of guards? And that no one foresaw that Tywin was going to betray Aerys and sack the city or that Rhaegar was going to get killed? And that Lyanna was heavily pregnant in a deserted place in an abandoned tower while war was taking place?

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yeah, that's probably it. i can't figure out if he has a grudging respect for Rhaegar. Otherwise it's strange that we get nothing.

I don't know that I see Barristan as completely unbiased, either. He wanted to be in Rhaegar's inner circle so badly, and wasn't included, that I wonder if he didn't idealize him.

I never got that he wanted to be in Rhaegar's circle. He only said that he wasn't one of his closest friends since R didn't trust him with Harrenhal, whatever that means

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Why people always say this?

You do realize Elia was in King's Landing, right? With huge ass walls and thousands of guards? And that no one foresaw that Tywin was going to betray Aerys and sack the city or that Rhaegar was going to get killed? And that Lyanna was heavily pregnant in a deserted place in an abandoned tower while war was taking place?

It's because Elia was in King's Landing as a hostage with a madman who had been burning people alive. She wasn't safe; those castle walls were a prison. Like the guards who were meant to protect Sansa who follow the king's command to beat a young girl. Aerys was brutually assaulting his own wife and everyone knew it. If Aerys got mad at Elia or the Dornish thought they should be taught a lesson, he wouldn't hesitate to do it.

I think more than anything it is about taking precautions for those just in case moments. Just because you don't think something would happen.

Send them away so they aren't being used as hostages to a crazy psycho who everyone obeys.

Get your family out of there, send them to Dragonstone before you ride off to war and face whatever consequences Aerys will throw which probably won't be much since he needed him to command the army as long as you know your family is safe from the lunacy.

Lyanna was in a tower in the middle of Dorne. War had been ravaging the land. No one was looking for her at the time. Lyanna wasn't a sitting duck. If the royals were to ever fall, the first thing they would do was march on King's Landing not to Dorne even if he didn't believe they would fall. For all they knew instead of Ned's six riders, there could have been a whole army. I know the Kingsguard are badasses, but they wouldn't stand a chance against an army. There were three Kingsguard. I would think two at the most is needed. One to always be at Lyanna's body and another to guard them both. Or one so they could travel as a couple without being noticeable.

I mean almost half of the King's own sword guards were not anywhere near the King or at his command during a major crisis

But we probably shouldn't talk about this on this thread.

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It's possible that Brandon made him feel that way, but I don't know. If Brandon was ever really like that with Ned, we would have gotten that from him in his own pov not from someone else six or seven books down the line if it ever came up again. It could have just been Ned's own inner angst. He was the second son of a proud old noble House. He was constantly outshinned by his older brother, which may have very well made everything more internalized for him. He was destined to be Kevan. The follower and not the leader and maybe he held a grudge against Brandon about it. Brandon was the heir, good looking, a great swordfighter, loud and good with the ladies.

With Ashara, I don't know. It feels like when people think Brandon stole her friend Ned. They refuse to acknowledge Ashara's feelings in the whole matter. Brandon was the first one to talk to him and what is the first thing he does. He asks her to give a dance to his shy little brother. That would catch anyone's eye just the caring involved when he could have easily been making fun of Ned about it. Ned may not have said a single thing to Ashara through the dance so is she now suddenly his.

this I could see. Brandon might just be more domineering because of his 'wildness' whereas Ned is more withdrawn.

I never got that he wanted to be in Rhaegar's circle. He only said that he wasn't one of his closest friends since R didn't trust him with Harrenhal, whatever that means

Something gave me that impression. I thought he always seemed a bit wistful about it, especially since in many ways he seems to really admire him.

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It's because Elia was in King's Landing as a hostage with a madman who had been burning people alive. She wasn't safe; those castle walls were a prison. Like the guards who were meant to protect Sansa who follow the king's command to beat a young girl. Aerys was brutually assaulting his own wife and everyone knew it. If Aerys got mad at Elia or the Dornish thought they should be taught a lesson, he wouldn't hesitate to do it.

That's an unsupported generalisation. The KG standing on guard knew, Rhaella's handmaids knew, but there is no information how far the gossip might have spread, and especially, if Rhaegar ever knew. It's not something you would like to tell the Ccrown Prince about his own father, mad or not.

I think more than anything it is about taking precautions for those just in case moments. Just because you don't think something would happen.

Send them away so they aren't being used as hostages to a crazy psycho who everyone obeys.

Get your family out of there, send them to Dragonstone before you ride off to war and face whatever consequences Aerys will throw which probably won't be much since he needed him to command the army as long as you know your family is safe from the lunacy.

And how is the family safe if everyone obeys Aerys, and the first thing he does after Rhaegar's departure is command that they return?

Lyanna was in a tower in the middle of Dorne. War had been ravaging the land. No one was looking for her at the time. Lyanna wasn't a sitting duck. If the royals were to ever fall, the first thing they would do was march on King's Landing not to Dorne even if he didn't believe they would fall. For all they knew instead of Ned's six riders, there could have been a whole army. I know the Kingsguard are badasses, but they wouldn't stand a chance against an army. There were three Kingsguard. I would think two at the most is needed. One to always be at Lyanna's body and another to guard them both. Or one so they could travel as a couple without being noticeable.

Not in the middle but on its borders, but that's a technicality. The more important thing is that Lyanna is a pregnant young woman at the mercy of anyone who might chance by.

Another aspect might be that Rhaegar didn't want any KG who knew the location of ToJ near Aerys because he didn't want Aerys to get hold of Lyanna.

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