Lyanna's abduction would still be despised even if it was consensual, right?

[Ned's Epic Beard]

If Lyanna indeed went willingly with Rheagar then she was a terrible person. She is responsible for the harm that came onto her house and family.

[JLE]

No matter whether Lyanna went with Rhaegar of her own free will, Brandon wouldn't have believed it, and would have acted the same.

The blame for the civil war lies, however, with Aerys. It could be argued that he was right to arrest Brandon, and all those that came with him: but he should then have given them a fair and public trial. Which, in all probability, would not even have led to their execution, since Brandon and his company of rash young noblemen were in no way rebels against the kingdom: at most it would probably have been exile, with their fathers probably suggesting that they be sent to the Wall. Result, a great deal of grumbling, but it dies down.

Instead of which Aerys decided not only to murder the lot of them, but to do it after using them as bait to make their fathers come to court, and murder the fathers too. THAT is what sparked the rebellion.

[JeepCSC]

I say Aerys is a scapegoat. Rhaegar and Lyanna were to blame from what we know. More specifically, them failing to do anything to mitigate their original bad decision. They want to get married and birth the AAR? Fine, but be adults and own up to your actions. Take your lumps. Don't disappear and only reappear into the narrative after a year. Aerys (and Brandon and the rest) were left to react to a situation they seemed to have no understanding of. The fact is Rhaegar and Lyanna apparently gave them no information to work off of. An angry brother and a mad father were set up to fail by those they loved, placed in a bad spot by R & L.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Now. I find it curious that people believe Rhaegar was stupid.

If you think so, you think AAR prophecy is bs and Jon Snow is a regular chap, right?

[lareine]

Without steering wildly off-topic, but why do you consider Edward IV to be a crap king? He surely was an improvement over his predecessor Henry VI. The first 10 years were arguably a bit spotty with his marriage etc. and in hindsight it probably wasn't a good idea to give his brother Richard so much power consering what Richard did after Edward's death. But from 1471 onwards, he ruled reasonably well until 1483.

As other people have said, being an intellectual doen't prevent you from doing things others consider to be stupid. Yes, it was foolish of Rhaegar, but if R+L=J and J is AA, PTWP etc. Then his birth is necessary with the prophecy and all. And then R made the right decision in the long term, if J saves Westeros.

Edward IV was a pretty good King, but nearly ruined everything when he married Elizabeth Woodville. He had deposed the ruling family (Lancaster) and needed a dynastic marriage to strenghten his throne. instead he married one of his subjects. The reason he couldn't keep the throne (although he got it back later) was his disastrous marriage.

Also, when John of Gaunt (son of Edward III and father of Henry IV) married his mistress after his second wife died, it was considered outrageous. Katherine Swynford was spit on in public.

Anne Boleyn was widely reviled after her marriage to Henry VIII as people loved his first wife (who was very much alive) Catherine of Aragon.

All these women were accused of sorcery and other unsavory things, including very bad morals who "seduced" their respective husbands. Same goes for infertility etc, it was always consided the woman's fault.

Here Rhaegar is presented as a rapist and monster and Lyanna as the victim. So if it was a spin, it was very effective.

Edward was a crap king I don't know what history books you've been reading.

I would actually compare R+L to Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn; the stupid man was willing to tear his kingdom in half, cause the deaths of thousands, marry a woman no one liked all for a baby. Makes more sense doesn't it? Especially when Henry was the renaissance prince of his era

You say Rhaegar's an intellectual but you also believe he's dumb enough to run off with Lyanna?

I can't, all I can see is a selfish brat who thinks people should accept his stupidity. I sympathise with Rhaella and Bonifer because I'm a modern reader, I don't however sympathise with someone so painfully stupid.

Now, now my friends. When you speak of my avatar and her lord husband Edward IV, speak nicely. You don't want to upset her ; after all, she was a witch B)

[JeepCSC]

Now. I find it curious that people believe Rhaegar was stupid.

If you think so, you think AAR prophecy is bs and Jon Snow is a regular chap, right?

Rhaegar was stupid for what he allowed to happen in the aftermath of the elopement. I think Rhaegar was foolish for the actual decision. Prophecy is a double-edged sword and even those who practice it for a living have trouble reading correctly. Rhaegar foolishly decided he knew what the prophecy meant (after perhaps already wrongly assuming Aegon was the prince that was promised). If he was right, I chalk that up to luck more than anything. But to be clear, the stupidity comes in how he and Lyanna handled everything after the elopement.

[Nami]

So people in love never do stupid things? The world would have far less people in it if people in love didn't do stupid things.

It's a story, there are so may stupid things that people have done in this story. A story about perfect people would be very boring.

I don't see why people have a problem with this being a love story. As if it's something GRRM never does

Lets see

“Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love in defiance of their father’s wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies when he might have made fast friends.”

[Le Cygne]

I don't see why people have a problem with this being a love story. As if it's something GRRM never does

I know, it's so obvious to me, too. It's a love story. The Tower of Joy, come on. Tipping his hand just a little. :)

[lareine]

Edward IV won most of his battles; made the Crown solvent; promoted trade; kept England out of an unwinnable war in France; and was reasonably humane. It was because he was such a popular King, that he was able to resist Warwick's efforts to overthrow him.

Rhaegar was a polymath, who composed poetry and music. It didn't stop him doing something stupid with Lyanna.

Not most, ALL of them. From his first victory at age 19 to his death at 40, Edward IV was never defeated on the field of battle. He was one of the greatest battle commanders and warrior kings of Medieval England.

[Kuther2000]

Worse love story ever.

Worse than Romeo and Juliet and I don't even like them and never thought of it as a love story.

[JeepCSC]

I don't think anyone is questioning (much) as a love story. It is simply one of the more destructive love stories we've come across. Romeo and Juliet on steroids.

[Rhymes with Weak]

I don't think anyone is questioning (much) as a love story. It is simply one of the more destructive love stories we've come across. Romeon and Juliet on steroids.

Well, that's just what you get when a self righteous Targ starts messing about with ancient prophesies. He destroys his dynasty and gets his chest caved in.

[Nami]

Worse love story ever.

Worse than Romeo and Juliet and I don't even like them and never thought of it as a love story.

Worse than Twilight?

[Rhymes with Weak]

Worse than Twilight?

No, I don't think that's possible. Maybe Gregor Clegane's relationship with Elia Martell was worse then Twilight.

[lareine]

Firstly I didn't say it is true love I just said if GRRM writes it like that are peoples reactions still going to be mostly negative? Do you mean characters in the text or readers when you talk about 'how people are going to view this affair'? It's pretty unclear and I think in this case there is quite a lot of scope for them to be fairly divergent. Like I said I know why it doesn't go down well amongst the Westerosi, I am just confused as to why most people are apparently going to adopt the Westerosi view and not find behaviour motivated by love over politics sympathetic, because it seems like that is something that is usually thought of highly.

That is a very good question. I've had a very hard time getting fully on board with the R+L love story which has always surprised me because in general I do love romantic love stories and I do tend to sympathize with characters who are forced to put duty or position before love or are star crossed. For an obvious example, I love Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville's love story. I love Romeo & Juliet. But R + L has always felt different to me, it always felt so much darker. Reading your question today got me thinking about why I sometimes have such a negative reaction to their relationship.

I realized that for me a lot of it had to do with how the relationship is first presented in GOT. Of course, we have Robert's hatred and (most likely false) belief that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped, but I think what really got to me was Eddard Chapter 12. It's the chapter where Ned recalls the Lannister's presenting the corpses of Elia and her children to Robert. The descriptions of the bodies and what was done to them were so extreme, just so savage and awful. It was like something out of a Greek myth, like Medea. That scene was much more upsetting for me to read than The Red Wedding. I came away feeling so horrified and angry at everyone involved in allowing those deaths to happen. We don't even hear about Haranhall until Eddard Chapter 58 when we find out that a few years before her death, poor Elia was also publicly rejected by her husband in favor of Lyanna in front of the whole kingdom. Then a year later, right after she nearly dies giving birth to his son and heir, her husband either "kidnaps" or disappears for months with the same girl and as far as we know at this time reamains completely out of contact while Lyanna's father and brother are tortured to death and the kingdom goes to war.

This is not Romeo and Juliet. This is so much crueler, the consequences of their love so much more severe that it's very difficult for me to enjoy any of the romantic elements of R + L. It feels to me almost like GRRM wants us to be unsettled by their relationship. He could have easily made it much more sympathetic. What if Rheagar hadn't been married yet to Elia, only engaged? Then, if he and Lyanna had run off together to avoid their upcoming loveless marriages, I would have thought it was romantic and wonderfull. But that's not what GRRM did. Like everything in Westeors, it's much volatile and sinister than that.

[Nami]

I realized that for me a lot of it had to do with how the relationship is first presented in GOT. Of course, we have Robert's hatred and belief that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped, but I think what really got to me was Eddard Chapter 12. It's the chapter where Ned recalls the Lannister's presenting the corpses of Elia and her children to Robert. The descriptions of the bodies and what was done to them were so extreme, just so savage and awful. It was like something out of a Greek myth, like Medea. That scene was much more upsetting for me to read than The Red Wedding. I came away feeling so horrified and angry at everyone in involved in make those deaths happen. We don't even hear about Haranhall until Eddard Chapter 58 when we find out that a few years before her death, poor Elia was also publicly rejected by her husband in favor of Lyanna in front of the whole kingdom. Then a year later, right after she nearly dies giving birth to his son and heir, her husband either "kidnaps" or disappears for months with the same girl and as far as we know at this time reamains completely out of contact while the kingdom burns and Elia's held hostage. I mean seriously, what more horrible things can be done to her?

I agree with this.

But was Elia being held hostage through the whole rebellion? wasn't to keep Dorne loyal for the battle of the Trident?

I think this love story is much darker and this is why I don't buy this whole fairy tail love some people think this might turn out and that's why they don't want it. Yes I believe they were in love but the consequences for that were gigantic with so many innocent people dying. At the same time I can't really blame everything on these two because their love affair wasn't the sole reason for all that disaster.

In fact, it makes even more tragic, sad, depressing, dark or whatever what a simple feeling like love in this world can create. And we have various examples of that.

[JeepCSC]

Their love affair wasn't the sole reason, but I tend to think how they handled it was the main one. Romeo and Juliet is not my favorite Shakespeare, but one thing he got right was the pragmatism of the Nurse and the Friar. They ground both the story and the lovers, while also providing explanations at the end to two families who could only began to unravel what was happening. And however crazy R & J were (and they were crazy), at least they had the decency to be babies. Rhaegar was an old man compared to those two.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I don't see this as a love story, the effects this relationship had on westeros is too much for this to be a love story.

The blue rose Rhaegar gave Lyanna is symbolic for a doomed relationship, they were never meant to be.

[WightsNatch]

Now, now my friends. When you speak of my avatar and her lord husband Edward IV, speak nicely. You don't want to upset her ; after all, she was a witch B)

I read about what happened to people who dared to cross Elizabeth Woodville. I wouldn'tdare... Nice avatar btw.

[BlackStark]

Their love affair wasn't the sole reason, but I tend to think how they handled it was the main one. Romeo and Juliet is not my favorite Shakespeare, but one thing he got right was the pragmatism of the Nurse and the Friar. They ground both the story and the lovers, while also providing explanations at the end to two families who could only began to unravel what was happening. And however crazy R & J were (and they were crazy), at least they had the decency to be babies. Rhaegar was an old man compared to those two.

Sidenote: Friar Lawrence wasn't pragmatic...he was manipulative. He took advantage of the immaturity and the mutual infatuation of Romeo and Juliet to advance his own goal, an end to the hostilities between the Montagues and Capulets.